Gas Checks from Beer Can Aluminum

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  • Last Post 12 December 2007
CB posted this 02 December 2007

It's been many years since I saw an add for this, but somebody made a device to have gas checks from beer/pop cans. Does anyone know anything about this?

 

I think the guy was a real genius for think of such a things. :dude:

 

Thanks,

 

Jerry

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Veral Smith posted this 02 December 2007

The genius was Paco Kelly who now maintains the Leverguns site, and was produced by Hanned precision till they could no longer survive.  His tools were very inexpensive,  hammer driven, and production was slow.  These gc's fit over plainbase bullets, and for best results the check tool was fitted to match the height of whatever bullet was to be checked.

I tried to market a tool that would fit into a standard loading press and would produce about 1000 checks an hour using a variety of materials, from beverage cans too aluminun roof sheeting,  copper, gilding metal, and even steel.   I liked the aluminum roof flashing best because it is available in the two thickness's used for gilding metal checks as produced by Hornady, so the checks would fit any standard gas check mold. Problem is I will not manufacture anything of such a nature that isn't high quality, so the cost of my unit would have been somewhere around $150.  I expect the price made response very low.  At any rate it was too low when I presented the offer last year for me to invest in the tooling required, so I dropped the idea until checks get a bit more expensive or unavailable, whichever comes first.   Veral Smith   LBT

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sundog posted this 03 December 2007

Veral, or anyone else, is there any down side to using aluminium as opposed to copper? I know that surface hardness on some aluminium can be quite hard. I'd hate to damage an otherwise usable barrel.

Also, you sure about a thousand an hour? That would be one every 3.6 seconds, if my math is right. I'd have to stop every once in a while to take a swig of my beverage of choice...

And, would the quality be sufficient for match bullets?

The upside that I see is that the dies could be custom made for any size desired.

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Veral Smith posted this 05 December 2007

  A very interesting question.  Anodized aluminum has a surface hardness that nearly matches that of a file and could possibly pose a wear problem if anodized aluminum were used.    However, I'm not aware of ever encountering any kind of aluminum sheet stock that is anodized, and if it is available it would come at a comsiderable higher price than plain aluminum.  And even then, anodize thickness would be the deciding influence on whether it would wear a barrel, and it would be very thin when used for cosmetic reasons as on sheet stock, where as anodize is often applied very thick to improve hardness and wear resistence, for example on air cylinders, etc etc.   Beverage cans are made from a special draw grade of aluminum which is tough but not hard, and the only treatment it gets after drawing is the film of paint on the outside.  The inside isn't coated.  (I've done some machine repair in a beverage can drawing plant so am quite versed in this.)  It has no effect on the barrel whether checks are made with painted side in or out, but the checks look best if the clean side is outside.  If you are interested in using this material, the new jumbo beer cans are about twice as thick as the 16 oz and smaller cans, which makes it far superior.

  Aluminum flashing is much softer than can stock, and works great, as hardness of the gc is not the factor that makes them work so much as melting point.  If the metal used  has a considerably higher melt point  than lead, and slides freely with lubrication it will work fine.    For example, nothing beats paper patching for totally eliminating leading and minimizing bore friction.  It neither melts, nor burns with the lube and short sliding distence of a barrel.

  I'm sure of the 1000 per hour.  I did it with the prototype unit I made.  In fact, if I say or write anything, you can take it to the bank.  I have tried it and am dead certain of what I say or I don't put it in print.

  Quality is second to none.

  It upside of being able to make them to fit anything is also the downside, in that if the cheapest material is used for check stock (aluminum cans) the mold must be modified if it is a gas check mold.

 

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 05 December 2007

or, you can go over to your local newpaper and just ask for a couple used off set sheets of aluminum.  It has to be very consistent for thickness or the press tears the paper or skins the print film.  Exactly .008” thick.

Rich

:dude:

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 06 December 2007

Idaho Sharpshooter wrote: or, you can go over to your local newpaper and just ask for a couple used off set sheets of aluminum. 

Rich

Hi Rich, please send me a test email .

thankx ken in iowa [email protected]

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 06 December 2007

it won't let me do it here. I'll try from my Email.

Rich

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454PB posted this 07 December 2007

When Veral ran this up the flagpole, I sent an e-mail saying I was interested. $150 only buys about 5000 .45 caliber gas checks these days.

Veral, I assume the dies would require a standard thickness of aluminum?

I'm still in if you decide to make the dies.

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Veral Smith posted this 07 December 2007

    I knew about using offset printing plates, but never tried them.  That would be better material than beverage cans.  The important point is that if one wants to make checks for a mold they already have which is cut for standard gc's the check shank area will have to be reamed so the stock which is available will be thick enough to iron on tight and smooth when sized.  This is one of the factors which stands in the way of producing check makers.  Of coarse the simple way is to purchase aluminum flashing, which is very inexpensive.

     I'm still keeping the project on a back burner, as checks aren't pricey enough yet to bring in enough business to make  the tooling  cost come back quickly enough.

  For those interested in making gc tooling, understand that uniform wall height is mandatory to get accuracy.  True precision is required in the tooling to cut the very thin material clean and hold it precisely centered while cupping it to shape, and the punch must be very hard or it will quickly wear enough that blanks won't be cut cleanly.  That means precision grinding the punch after hardening to around 60 Rockwell C.  The die can be considerably softer and the form mandrel will stand up well with only 30 Rockwell C hardness, though 50 C is preferable for both, and high wear resistent steel should be used.  It doesn't take long to punch 100,000 times, which is considered very long life in the metal working industry.  My planed design is to stand up to a million checks before sharpening.

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 07 December 2007

Veral,

can't be much cheaper than “free", which is what my paper here in Nampa charges me. They measure 22 1/2” wide by 34” tall and exactly .008". I doubt flashing is nearly that consistent. I could have a dozen or more sheets free each week, for a dozen donuts a month.

I have an idea that my gunsmith friend and I are tinkering with. If it works it could be done for about $30 and ten minutes per caliber.

Rich

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CB posted this 07 December 2007

I have several rolls of aluminum flashing, and have been collecting beer/pop cans for my little foundry. I also have a couple rolls of thin copper, I think is was some sort of flashing. Plus I have a rolling mill in my shop, so I can thin down metal

Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, I would like to see one, or have detailed photo and intelligible draws.

Jerry

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Veral Smith posted this 08 December 2007

  Reinvent the wheel indeed.  I understand what you are driving at, but have a couple issues about giving my idea away. (I've held it under wraps for 20 years.)    Most important is that my design is the highest quality I know how to produce, which means special tooling and precision grinding of parts, after special heat treat.  This dictates a high cost, no matter who does it.  So if it is worth doing I'll do it myself.   Second, if I give out my idea it mind locks anyone who studies it and prevents true thinking.  e.g. We can't invent a car without wheels, etc., because we all think of a ride the way we are accustomed to, when free thinking might come up with an alternate that is supeior in many ways.  Ditto the gc maker.  As Rich says, he has an idea that his gunsmith says he can produce for $30, and 10 minutes per caliber.  One part on my unit cannot be precision ground that quick, after all the initial forming is done!

  Put you heads to work guys, and come up with something inexpensive, as that's what the world is demanding at this time.  What I wrote above should help anyone interested in working out some of the bugs.

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 08 December 2007

Veral,

don't think too much, you'll overstimulate your braincells. Use the KISS principle, the concept is simple.

Rich

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CB posted this 08 December 2007

Veral,

I have a Knee Mill, 14 x 40 Lathe, surface grinder, etc, etc, etc in my machine shop. I work with Titanium and carbide regularly, but I actually want info on Paco's FreeChec design. Not yours.

I want to make this for for fun, plus be able to give Paco a couple of bucks, and CBA members a decent deal on such a machine for a decent price.

I don't want to take any body's ideas to make a profit, I want to explore making certain things for my shooting.

Do you have a non-disclosure agreement set up between you and the other guy? Do you a corporation set up to own and produce such an item? How about partnership papers? Have you ever filed for a patent?

I really don't need to steal somebodies idea, if I produce such an item, it would be for personal use. If I had permission from Paco, I would produce them for CBA members at basic cost plus a couple of bucks for Paco.

But to be fair, I will not infringe on your idea, so I will drop the whole subject and figure out how to make one on my own, then keep the idea to myself.

Jerry

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CB posted this 08 December 2007

Veral,

Orgnaize your notes, drawings and photos, put them in book form, make two copies. Then go the U.S. Copyright office, http://www.copyright.gov/forms/

File for a copyright that will give some protection, but as Paco has made one in the past, you may not be able to a patent under the Inevitable Discovery rules or even that fact that one already exist in the public domain that is documented.

Me, I just wanted a FreeChec maker and was willing to make them for my cost, plus a couple of bucks for Paco, to offer them to CBA members.

Currently I have about 20 emails from people who want this device. I may take the page that shows Paco's device and reverse engineer it, make them give Paco a couple of bucks and let some bullet casters have a device for basic costs.

Good Luck,

Jerry

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CB posted this 08 December 2007

If you want to see the freechec tools, here is an article with pictures:

http:/s.handloads.com_posts.asp?TID=1987&PN=1&get=last

Jerry

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Veral Smith posted this 11 December 2007

I'm quite sure Paco still has a web site called   Leverguns          , which is worth looking at for any cb shooter, but he will give you the stuff straight from the horses mouth. (I'm not name calling.  I like the guy a lot.)   I've never patented anything, though I started a couple times.  The process is expensive and very time consuming, and if the patent is worth anything, it is REALLY expensive because a good patent attorney has to write it up so it has teeth to prosecute with.  And one must understand the strength of a patent is ONLY by prosecution be the party holding the patent.

  When one isn't interest in making a killing from a new idea he probably won't have any need for a patent, as the only reason for infringing on one is because of big $$$$$$$$$.   In other words gready stealing from the gready.

  The big boys that have control of our government keep the patent office alive as much as anything so they can get precise information on how to manufacture all new ideas, and if the big money wants it the person who patents it will never see a profit, and probably never get into production.

  Being a simple farm boy type, I figgure to just make a comfortable living off whatever I dream up, and sell it at a price low enough that no one gets interested in stealing the idea.  It has worked well for 27 years.  One really beautiful point about such a concept is that your heirs won't have too much to fight over, and may stay friends after one is gone, and may not even hate you because they didn't get their fair share!

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CB posted this 11 December 2007

Veral,

I am a co-inventor/reseacher of a few patents with a large university. Some get sold and some gather dust. I am not greedy, just want to play with my toys and enjoy life these days. But I am looking for 2 row corn planter for JD 950.

I got to retire young, don't need a big boat or a dozen cars or 6 houses.

Find the case study of Amy's Microwave Bacon Cooker. They ripped her off, but good. It happens often and that is a shame.

The strength of a patent is how much money are you willing to spend in court to fight the people who pretty much have stolen your idea, generally the inventor goes bankrupt.

Jerry

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Veral Smith posted this 12 December 2007

Thank you for the comments Jerry, and I pause to wipe a tear for lost freedom.

  Good luck with the cornplanter search.  I'm 67 with intentions of working till I drop, perhaps partly because I haven't believed in patents for the last 35 years, as my method of operation hasn't made me affluent enough to support life without working and I refuse to collect the social security I paid for all those years.  Maybe because I hate the corrupt government that cost me most of our life savings in trying to shut LBT down.  I'm a pretty nasty straw in their craw you know.  An armed populace can only be robbed to a certain point, and that point comes a lot sooner if they are armed with guns than if armed with sticks and stones.

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CB posted this 12 December 2007

Veral,

The song Me and Bobby McGee had the right words, Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose.

I gave up the dog eat dog life to live out here in BFE where I shoot ground hogs and play with my toys. Being rich is what you value in life, I value friends, so I must be rich.

Jerry

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CB posted this 12 December 2007

Amen to that!

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