Return of the Accuracy Testing Protocol

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  • Last Post 13 November 2007
CB posted this 09 November 2007

Additions, comments, opinions?

HOW TO SEARCH FOR ACCURACY

            This article describes an importance-ordered set of the things we can and must do to get a rifle to shoot accurately with cast bullets.

            It is not going to explain how to do any of these things; only when, in what order, to do them. In the background is the element of cost; it's always there but seldom mentioned.

            So we start with either a new or used rifle that we want to get going with cast bullets.

            The first step is to acquire a notebook in which everything, yes everything about the rifle and what is done with it is written down.

            A rifle must have sights that allow the shooter to shoot accurately.

For young persons with good eyesight interested in hunting or generally less precise shooting, open sights or peep rear and blade front sights may be adequate, telescopic sights are much better.

For precise shooting, good quality aperture front and rear sights are threshold sights; and telescopic sights are in virtually every case, better.

With a new rifle, make sure that:

There is no obvious bedding or barrel problem

Sights are mounted solidly and correctly

Screws are tight

 With a used rifle, make sure that:

There is no obvious bedding or barrel problem

Sights are mounted solidly and correctly

There is no damage to the muzzle crown

Screws are tight

             The barrel is clean, no copper or other fouling is in there

            New rifle barrels may be “broken in” by the new owner. Since instructions and opinions abound and conflict, this is the shooter's call.

With either a new or used rifle we need to know the twist, to measure the groove and if possible the bore dimensions at chamber and muzzle ends, and to slug or make a cast of the throat. We also need to find out if there are tight or loose spots in the bore, and may need to fix such spots. 

            Testing a rifle for accuracy requires a solid bench rest on a sold bench, and a good chair or stool.

The target used must work for the shooter-target types, shapes and styles  affect group size.

            When the above is done or ready, it is time to select one or more starting loads from published sources such as reloading manuals. Here we select a set of cartridge cases, bullet, alloy, diameter, lubricant, primer, powder, charge and OAL.

            Depending on what is or can easily be made available, several combinations of powder, charge and bullet may be prepared and used for testing.

            Vary powder charge weight in half grain increments.

            Chamfer the mouths of the cartridge cases and always “bell” case mouths.

            Visually inspect the cast bullets and recycle those with flaws.

            Always clean primer pockets

            Always brush or clean inside case necks.

 

Intermission             I test at 100 yards, five shot groups, five groups to a test, group sizes and average recorded. Two or three foulers and ten shots = two five shot groups are shot in about a 15 minute relay, followed by a target-change period of 10-20 minutes. All in reasonable-not perfect and not blizzard, conditions.

            The group measurements mentioned below are average group sizes for bolt action or single shot rifles of about .30 caliber with telescopic or aperture front and rear sights, tested per the paragraph just above.

            If you test in a different way, the group sizes mentioned below may not apply to your testing, but the remainder of this article applies.

Now back to our show.               In this phase of accuracy testing the “Tic-Tac-Toe” chart method, or “Ladder Testing” may be of  value. 

            It is my experience that using recommended loads from reliable sources, with reasonable bullets and powders and primers and lubricant, that average group sizes of 2” or less are fairly easily obtained by varying the powder, charge or bullet. If the best average group sizes that result are over 2 1/2", there is probably something wrong with the rifle.

 

            Now to get from 2” to 1 1/2” average groups.

What do we change next?

            The things we CAN change are legion. The things we SHOULD change are limited somewhat by costs, but should follow a reasonable scheme that works.

 

Second Intermission             There are a number of things that can be done that probably won't help get from 2” to 1 1/2” group averages but that may help later in getting to very small groups.

            I do the following because I've got the time and tools on hand:

                        Select ~100 cases with the same headspace, from the same lot if possible

                        FL size, fire and trim to length

                        Uniform Primer pockets

                        De-burr flash holes

                        Turn case necks

                        Weigh and segregate cases by weight

                        Weigh and segregate bullets by weight, keep those +/- .5 grains, recycle the rest or use for flyers

Now back to our show.  

            Changing the bullet, diameter, powder and charge will get us down to 1 1/2” groups with some more testing. Read anything available about who's doing what with cast bullets, the powders and bullets used.

            Keep the barrel from overheating, cooling methods are available.

 

   

Getting from 1 1/2” groups to ~1” groups is tough.

Based on the CBA National records over several years, competitors average around 1” over the classes. Means that those who shoot in each of the four classes, all told, average about 1". Averaging 1” with cast bullets is tough.

 

            Here are the things that can be done to reduce group size below 1 1/2":

            If you haven't done it yet,

                        Select ~100 cases with the same headspace, from the same lot if possible

                        FL size, fire and trim to length

            Segregate bullets by weight, classes of .5 grains

            Vary bullet diameter in .001” steps

            Vary the alloy, harder is almost always better

            Vary OAL in .005” steps

            Anneal case necks

            Try different barrel cleaning methods and frequencies

            Check and fix cartridge concentricity

 

 

            Here are the things that can be done to reduce group size below 1":

            Change primers

            Get “better” (Lapua, Norma) brass

            If you haven't done it yet,

                        Uniform Primer pockets

                        De-burr flash holes

                        Turn case necks

                        Weigh and segregate cases by weight

            Get cartridge case length closer to chamber length

            Vary the lube

            Vary the number of lube grooves filled

            Vary OAL in .002” steps

            Control bullet weights to .2 gr.

            Control powder weights to .1 gr.

            Orient cases and bullets in the preparation and shooting steps

 

 

 

A Warning: It takes a lot of shooting to find and verify a small change in accuracy-in group size. Simple and easy to use statistical tests are available. (Add references)  

 

 

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linoww posted this 12 November 2007

What is your most accurate and consistent cast bullet rifle. How small are the groups it shoots? What are the load details and numbers of groups fired with given load?

 Geo.

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 13 November 2007

linoww wrote: What is your most accurate and consistent cast bullet rifle. How small are the groups it shoots? What are the load details and numbers of groups fired with given load?

 Geo.

 

Probably the most accurate rifle I own is a bench rifle put together by Mark Penrod and delivered Feb 18, 1993. This started life as a 12/15 BSA Martini 22 RF rifle. It has a Douglas Air-Gauged Premium .30 caliber barrel with a 1:10 twist, a bit over an inch in diameter. The neck is .326".

            My basic load for this rifle is a 311299 bullet sized .312” without a gas check, lubed with alox. This goes into a step-necked case that holds the bullet without sizing. Best primer is Remington 2 1/2, original powder was IMR4227, 14.5 grains.

            With this load this rifle has shot several 100 yard five shot groups in the .2s in competition, has shot 250s at 100 yards in competition twice, and has won matches at Old Colony in Pembroke MA, Western NY Scheutzen Society, Long Island, did at least a strong second at Fairfax, won at Bridgeport. It has shot a number of 249s at 200 yards in competition and 200 yard 5 shot groups down to the 1.2” region.

            I fired it a lot, both in competition and experimenting, but haven't fired it too much since moving to FL and not competing much, except at Palm Bay a couple of years ago where it took a 3rd in something or other.

            This is a SS rifle, shot in ASSRA matches in at least the places mentioned.

            Based on primer use, this rifle has shot well over 10,000 shots with Rem 2 1/2s, many more with WLPs.

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CB posted this 13 November 2007

Here's the MTM case with some of the stuff for this rifle. In it there are cases with four different step-neck diameters, for different diameter bullets. The SC 311299, DC314299, SC308403 and Borton-Darr 185 gr. spitzers are the bullets tried mostly. 311299 and 314299 have been sized .312", .311", .309” and .308". (Neither the 308403 nor the Borton-Darr bullet are sized. I use one cartridge case, de and re priming with the old Lyman tool shown. When breech seating.

 

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CB posted this 13 November 2007

Here are the six lengths of plugged cases I have been using with various of the bullets, and the 311299 and Borton-Darr bullets. I've been trying, a little, to get this rifle to be more accurate. Hence the different bullets and the breech-seating. I have also been using 12/AA#9 instead of the IMR4227, and have used some of the CF Ventures soft gas checks.

 

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CB posted this 13 November 2007

Here are two breech seaters for this rifle. Both used with plugged cases. The shorter one is tapped home with a plastic mallet, the one with the handle pushes the bullet home. I'm a little stumped on the breech seater, I'd like to have a mechanical breech seater that would put the bullet into the rifling without pushing or tapping, but with a Lyman STS on the gun I'm a little afraid of breaking the scope. While the Martini action gives strength and a striker action, it is not like a 44 1/2, doesn't push the plugged case home. I think I'm still trying to figure the breech seater out.

The last time I recorded group sizes with this rifle was 8/23/06; five shots at 100 yards. Groups were .9", .775” and .8” with one load, .975” and .85” with another.

This rifle will generally average under 1” for five shot groups at 100 yards, sometimes under and sometimes way over. It will average under 2” at 200 yards for five shots, most of the time. Sometimes way over.

Like all rifles, it's groups vary a lot. Since there's no place to compete closer than Palm Bay, and that's 350 miles away, I don't shoot this rifle much. Just working on the breech seating and the PVC wads when I think of it. I've been suspecting that this rifle is worn, that accuracy has degraded; but I don't shoot it enough to know. Some day/year I'll wring it out and if needed have it rebored to 32/40.

It's not a lot of fun to load one case at the bench in the FL heat, and the wind the rest of the time takes away from the enjoyment. I look back fondly at the Alabama Hunt Club on those September mornings, with cool calm weather many times.

Well, that's probably my most accurate rifle; although I've got a Maynard #16 in 32/35 that shoots very nicely with iron sights. It has no scope blocks, I've been trying to figure out how to put a scope on it for 12 years or so without drilling any holes. With a scope I believe that it might do very well indeed. 

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linoww posted this 13 November 2007

            My basic load for this rifle is a 311299 bullet sized .312” without a gas check, lubed with alox. This goes into a step-necked case that holds the bullet without sizing. Best primer is Remington 2 1/2, original powder was IMR4227, 14.5 grains.

            With this load this rifle has shot several 100 yard five shot groups in the .2s in competition, has shot 250s at 100 yards in competition twice, and has won matches at and 200 yard 5 shot groups down to the 1.2” region.      Those are amazing groups for such an oddball combination and would seem to have National Champion accuracy. I don't see Miller DeHass action guns in .32 MS do that well. I have shot around Bev.Pinney,Tommy,Mason and Bernie Connan in the CBA and didnt see groups that small in competition. You should bust it out and shoot some matches with it. I have never owned a cast bullet bolt gun that would shoot consistently under ½ MOA, but have had a couple that would shoot many 1/2MOA groups.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 November 2007

Joe Brennan wrote:

Well, that's probably my most accurate rifle; although I've got a Maynard #16 in 32/35 that shoots very nicely with iron sights. It has no scope blocks, I've been trying to figure out how to put a scope on it for 12 years or so without drilling any holes. With a scope I believe that it might do very well indeed.  Hi Joe. concerning mounting scopes without screwing up the rifle ... I have mounted several scopes by finding a big fat base ( doesn' t have to match perfectly ) and just epoxying the base to the receive/barrel/both.  I use a Weaver/pickatinny type one-piece if possible, more area for the epoxy, and usually a little easier to line up. Lots of area is important, if the rifle recoils much.  Try putting the mount base in the scope rings first, then set on rifle and line up the crosshairs/boresight.

For epoxy, depending on how long I think I will be leaving the base on the rifle, I use (  Sig Hobby Shop model airplane epoxy , it's kind of a clear yellowish ), or Devcon aluminum filled, which looks ok on stainless, or JB Weld.

All of those epoxies are almost fool proof, if you get even close in the mixture ratio, they will set up ok.  DO ALLOW FOR FULL CURE, not just setup.  full cure is usually 2 days or so.  Do NOT use 5 minute epoxies, they are junk.

If you really really like where the base is located, you can always use the base as a jig and put 1 or 2 or..... mount screws in the base holes so you can just screw it on and off after this time. 

When you take off the scope, usually a sharp rap with a heavy chunk of wood or aluminum or brass will snap the grip of the epoxy .... there might be some epoxy stuck to the barrel, this can be removed with a piece of aluminum or brass, without marring the barrel ...  use the bar like a dull knife, which I guess it is ...

I have used this ” Molly ” approach (g) to mounting scopes on SS Winchesters, early .22s without obvious mounting surfaces, various pistolas, and shotguns.... 


This would give you a way to shoot some of the old ones without committing a SACRILEDGE... of drilling holes in them.

just some trivia ken campbell, deltawerkes

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CB posted this 13 November 2007

linoww wrote:             My basic load for this rifle is a 311299 bullet sized .312” without a gas check, lubed with alox. This goes into a step-necked case that holds the bullet without sizing. Best primer is Remington 2 1/2, original powder was IMR4227, 14.5 grains.

            With this load this rifle has shot several 100 yard five shot groups in the .2s in competition, has shot 250s at 100 yards in competition twice, and has won matches at and 200 yard 5 shot groups down to the 1.2” region.      Those are amazing groups for such an oddball combination and would seem to have National Champion accuracy. I don't see Miller DeHass action guns in .32 MS do that well. I have shot around Bev.Pinney,Tommy,Mason and Bernie Connan in the CBA and didnt see groups that small in competition. You should bust it out and shoot some matches with it. I have never owned a cast bullet bolt gun that would shoot consistently under ½ MOA, but have had a couple that would shoot many 1/2MOA groups.

George;

If you've shot in ASSRA matches then you will understand that the number of re-entries is unlimited in many matches. Let's talk about group matches. It is pretty easy to shoot a group under an inch in a couple or three hours. Let's say you've shot a 3/4” group by 1PM on Saturday. Buy some more targets, and commence shooting. As soon as you've screwed up the first target, go to the second, you don't have to shoot all five. Then when you've screwed up the second, start on the third. You can put four targets up and turn them to scrap paper in 8 shots. Then buy some more. Then buy some Sunday.

If you work at it, eventually you'll get a smaller and smaller group, or higher and higher score. No need to shoot all the shots, see the target get screwed up and stop. ASSRA re-entry matches are won by good shooters shooting a lot of targets. Shoot a 248 by 10AM on Saturday at 200 yards, ans spend dozens of bucks looking for a 249.

Alternatively, we have the guys that set out lots of wind flags, and take ALL DAY to shoot ten record shots. Then do it Sunday.

I never said that I had a gun that would consistently shoot half inch groups, and I never said that this gun was amazingly accurate. It's a good rifle.

If you've never seen competition groups in the .2s, you never looked.

If you've never seen 250s shot in competition at 100 yards, you haven't looked. They're getting downright common.

If you've never seen 200 yard groups of 1.2” or so, you haven't looked. It is getting common for ASSRA matches to have several 200 yard 250s, sometimes more than 1 200 yard 250 by one competitor in a match. I was at the match when Jerry Ventura shot the first 200 yard 250 in ASSRA competition, watched him do it, late 80s?. Now they're not unusual.

When I lived in MA we went to WNYSS 1-2 times a year, to L.I., at Old Colony, anywhere in reason for a match. Here in FL there's 5-8 guys 350 miles away running ASSRA style matches, not re-entry but max 2 targets per match. I don't shoot offhand. I can enter every score and group match, shoot the 2 targets, BS for a while and be done at 3PM on Sat. Not much shooting for 700 miles of driving.

Read what I wrote, George. Don't get confused, it's pretty simple. Remember, you asked.

joe b. 

 

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CB posted this 13 November 2007

Ken Campbell, Iowa wrote: Joe Brennan wrote:

Well, that's probably my most accurate rifle; although I've got a Maynard #16 in 32/35 that shoots very nicely with iron sights. It has no scope blocks, I've been trying to figure out how to put a scope on it for 12 years or so without drilling any holes. With a scope I believe that it might do very well indeed.  Hi Joe. concerning mounting scopes without screwing up the rifle ... I have mounted several scopes by finding a big fat base ( doesn' t have to match perfectly ) and just epoxying the base to the receive/barrel/both.  I use a Weaver/pickatinny type one-piece if possible, more area for the epoxy, and usually a little easier to line up. Lots of area is important, if the rifle recoils much.  Try putting the mount base in the scope rings first, then set on rifle and line up the crosshairs/boresight.

For epoxy, depending on how long I think I will be leaving the base on the rifle, I use (  Sig Hobby Shop model airplane epoxy , it's kind of a clear yellowish ), or Devcon aluminum filled, which looks ok on stainless, or JB Weld.

All of those epoxies are almost fool proof, if you get even close in the mixture ratio, they will set up ok.  DO ALLOW FOR FULL CURE, not just setup.  full cure is usually 2 days or so.  Do NOT use 5 minute epoxies, they are junk.

If you really really like where the base is located, you can always use the base as a jig and put 1 or 2 or..... mount screws in the base holes so you can just screw it on and off after this time. 

When you take off the scope, usually a sharp rap with a heavy chunk of wood or aluminum or brass will snap the grip of the epoxy .... there might be some epoxy stuck to the barrel, this can be removed with a piece of aluminum or brass, without marring the barrel ...  use the bar like a dull knife, which I guess it is ...

I have used this ” Molly ” approach (g) to mounting scopes on SS Winchesters, early .22s without obvious mounting surfaces, various pistolas, and shotguns.... 


This would give you a way to shoot some of the old ones without committing a SACRILEDGE... of drilling holes in them.

just some trivia ken campbell, deltawerkes

Ken;

If the barrel had a sight slot I'd be fine, but it doesn't. I know about the glue-ons, I just can't stand to drop a big $$$ scope on the ground when the epoxy fails. The epoxy failed an a 12/15 Martini 22RF at Alabama one year, and put us out of the RF competition.

The barrel is part octagon, and has a screw hole for the forend, on the bottom of the barrel. One screw should be all that's needed, I'm only a designer and a machine shop away from a mount screwed in the bottom and on a flat on top.

Thanks;

joe b.

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billwnr posted this 13 November 2007

linoww wrote:             My basic load for this rifle is a 311299 bullet sized .312” without a gas check, lubed with alox. This goes into a step-necked case that holds the bullet without sizing. Best primer is Remington 2 1/2, original powder was IMR4227, 14.5 grains.

            With this load this rifle has shot several 100 yard five shot groups in the .2s in competition, has shot 250s at 100 yards in competition twice, and has won matches at and 200 yard 5 shot groups down to the 1.2” region.      Those are amazing groups for such an oddball combination and would seem to have National Champion accuracy. I don't see Miller DeHass action guns in .32 MS do that well. I have shot around Bev.Pinney,Tommy,Mason and Bernie Connan in the CBA and didnt see groups that small in competition. You should bust it out and shoot some matches with it. I have never owned a cast bullet bolt gun that would shoot consistently under ½ MOA, but have had a couple that would shoot many 1/2MOA groups.

I think Joe should shoot in our matches too.

 

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