Who Shoots, Casts and Loads for the .455 Revolver?

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  • Last Post 22 January 2017
Ed Harris posted this 20 October 2016

I became the custodian of a Webley Mark VI .455 revolver made during WW1 and refurbished for WW2 service.  Its former owner's father was an RCAF pilot and the revolver saw very little use and is in near-pristine condition. He gave me a bunch of ammunition, some 1942-era Kynoch service loads, and handloads in Hornady Mk.2 cases with 265-grain Mark 1 style bullets and 4.5 grains of Unique, and others with Ideal #452374 bullets in Fiocchi cases with 5 grains of Unique. Barrel slugs .440 bore and .450 groove, with narrow lands and 7-groove rifling. Cylinder throats are all different, the smallest being .449 and the largest .453 and the others in between covering all of the possibilities. Cylinder gap is a generous 0.018"!!   My plan is to shoot the gun as-is to get baseline data, and to generate empty brass for experiments.  Then I'll send the cylinder off to DougGuy in North Carolina for him to uniform all of the chamber throats to .453” on his Sunnen hone, then to shoot it again. There are no plans for heavy loads in this, but only to work up charges which approximate the velocity of service ammo with Accurate 45-245D, which I use in the .45 Auto Rim. Obligatory Eye Candy is attached.  If you have one of these neat old guns, what do you shoot in yours?

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 22 January 2017

I understand the rationale as to why the Brits made cylinder throats tight, but I wish they could at least have made them uniform.

I wanted to clean up the old tool marks and pitting as much as practical while bringing the throats up to a uniform size so that I could load bullets other than the hollow-based original type.  The results obtained by doing so are satisfying to me.

Thanks for the info on Red Dot.

 

 

I am going to experiment with Accurate 45-290H in the Mark 1 cases made by Ron Reed of Reed's Custom Ammo, by cutting down and head turning Starline .45 Schofield cases.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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bsavictor500 posted this 22 January 2017

I have a mkvi 1917 in excellent condition-the cylinder throats don't matter if you use a hollow base bullet. Mine is extremely accurate with 2.5-3 grains of red dot and a lee 300 grain hollow base bullet .454. I use 45 long colt cases shortened so they will just fit in the cylinders when loaded. Vince Anderson... Good Luck

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Ed Harris posted this 28 December 2016

Latest mold coming from Accurate to better match chamber throat diameters of my honed Webley cylinder.

With min. diameter per drawing .454 with + tolerance, as-cast and unsized diameter should be good fit for the .4555” honed throats with little or no sizing required.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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billglaze posted this 25 November 2016

Ric: Yep, I also miss Ken Waters. Everything I have read of his has been well researched, and most all of his stuff I could agree with. I still have, (and refer to) his “Pet Loads” two volumes of which sit right by my bench. If he doesn't have the exact size nail you're looking for, at least there is usually something compatible enough to at least get me started on a safe working load.

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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RicinYakima posted this 25 November 2016

There is a reason that we older shooters miss Ken Waters, skimpy research and data in “Handloader” magazine. The kid from Idaho does a good job, but his stuff is mostly modern hunting and CAS stuff. JMHO, Ric

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Dale53 posted this 25 November 2016

Ed, Glad to hear that it worked for you (finally😊).

Dale53

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Ed Harris posted this 25 November 2016

Was successful downloading on my second attempt.   Seems that my anti-virus interpreted the Lockbox opening page asking me to logon or create an account as a phishing site.  I was eventually able to bypass this and download finally. The article is good as far as what it covers, but does so in less detail than what I've put together.   I am glad to see that our load data is in agreement and that I independently came to the same conclusions that he did. But I think my concentration on the modern Accurate molds is more constructive than trying to use the inferior design antique traditional bullets.   Also, my observations with two Webleys both having tight cylinder throats smaller than barrel groove diameter, and also tighter bores than either Colt or S&W .455 revolvers of the period is noteworthy, and warrants further discussion, which I will now add to my draft.  People who load based upon what they read are liable to use oversized bullets which will run pressure up, and while soft hollow-based bullets will tolerate being squeezed through tight throats and will slug up again to take the rifling of a larger barrel, doing so is NOT the best technical solution. Being able to show results before and after cylinder reaming of my Mk VI should be interesting, and I am confident now that reaming the cylinder throats from their original random .449-.453 to a uniform .4555” all the way around, and having new Accurate molds cut which drop .4545” bullets, allowing for growth from age hardening during long term storage, was the correct approach. I also have full confidence that using 3.5 grains of Bullseye with bullets from 240-260 grains, specifically Accurate 45-240H1 and 45-259H is a more useful approximation of original service velocity, with a superior modern long, flat-nosed bullet.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Dale53 posted this 25 November 2016

Ed; Here is a link to my Dropbox for a copy of the article:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxgblh0s6w4t4u2/Webley%20.455%20revolver.pdf?dl=0

Let me know if it was successfully downloaded.

Dale53

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Ed Harris posted this 23 November 2016

Have not seen that article, but several people have told me about it. If somebody could scan the article into .pdf I would like to see a copy. I don't subscribe to the magazine and none of the stores here carry it. My .455 cylinder arrived back from DougGuy today and I'm assembling the revolver now.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 23 November 2016

This morning I noticed I have a copy of Handloader, I want to say from about November 2015, and the cover story is on shooting the 455.

Probably you already knew that, and probably there is nothing in the article you don't already know, but FWIW.

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Ed Harris posted this 21 November 2016

I have some TiteGroup and may work up some loads using the Ruger Old Army with Kirst conversion as the platform. The Ruger runs about 90-100 faster than the Webley, so for safety sake, I would limit .455 loads to about 700 fps in the 7-1/2” Ruger, were I to try them in the Webley.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 21 November 2016

Or Titegroup, or R123, or AA#2, etc.. There are lots of choices, but no tested data except for Bullseye. What ever you choose, it will all be burned before the base of the bullet gets to the front of the cylinder.

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Ed Harris posted this 21 November 2016

Sounds to me I may as well stick with Bullseye!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 21 November 2016

Been loading the .455 MK 1 case for about 15 years. Never been able to get anything slower than SR7625 or W231 to burn even half way cleanly. Stopping at 12,000 cup, anything slower just doesn't burn well. However a load of FFF compressed 1/8 inch burns very nicely! FWIW, Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 20 November 2016

I don't have any, but might shop around. The Unique left a lot of unburned powder and was very dirty,though...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 20 November 2016

ED: Interesting to see the velocity comparison between the Webley and Ruger. The Kynoch ammo shows the smallest difference followed by the 5gr Unique load. Do you have any Blue Dot or Herco knocking around. I wonder if a slightly slower powder than Unique might claw back some of that cylinder gap loss.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ed Harris posted this 20 November 2016

Last final photo of cylinder Doug took as he is packing to ship back and return, along with polished out RCBS case sizer die, so that brass will not be worked excessively, and honed Lee bullet sizer die to match throats.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 19 November 2016

Update on progress of Webley cylinder from Doug Phillips:

"Here are the .4555” throats, and chambers, all polished up with an 800grit ball hone. A .4555' pin gage goes smoothly and evenly in all the throats, a .456” won't go in any of them. I am quite satisfied with this endeavor, and for sure want to know how well it shoots.

I am thinking that at the very worst, if you have 2 chambers that are not shooting to the same point of impact as the others, two things can happen. You could mark them with empty 45 ACP brass that would remain in the chambers, or you could send the cylinder back and see what taking the throats to .4565” does for it.

My thoughts for the best scenario are that you fire the gun enough times to fill in the remaining pits, and determine that it shoots pretty dang good and just roll with it. So I can blue the chambers as you see them here and send it on back and take it from there. I think it will not waste any time in making it's own statement. You should see a tremendous improvement right away. For once, the caliber REALLY IS what the boolits are, and you now truly have a 455 Webley!"

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Ed Harris posted this 19 November 2016

This is a 25-yard group fired off sandbags while checking loads through the chronograph. Pretty good for an old war horse, but occasional fliers are to be expected with the variations in chambers. That is not a “called” flier, it is the chamber with “tight” .449 cylinder throat.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Ed Harris posted this 19 November 2016

And this is the 50-yard “before” group, firing two-handed, standing, double-action, center of mass hold.  The 5-grain Unique load with the 265-grain bullet is borderline “too hot” and not recommended.  I wanted to see if 1/2 grain powder would compensate for the huge cylinder gap.  It does, but I wouldn't want to shoot that load in a older gun having a tighter gap.  Also, the tight cylinder throats found in many of these guns run the pressure up!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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