Who Shoots, Casts and Loads for the .455 Revolver?

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  • Last Post 22 January 2017
Ed Harris posted this 20 October 2016

I became the custodian of a Webley Mark VI .455 revolver made during WW1 and refurbished for WW2 service.  Its former owner's father was an RCAF pilot and the revolver saw very little use and is in near-pristine condition. He gave me a bunch of ammunition, some 1942-era Kynoch service loads, and handloads in Hornady Mk.2 cases with 265-grain Mark 1 style bullets and 4.5 grains of Unique, and others with Ideal #452374 bullets in Fiocchi cases with 5 grains of Unique. Barrel slugs .440 bore and .450 groove, with narrow lands and 7-groove rifling. Cylinder throats are all different, the smallest being .449 and the largest .453 and the others in between covering all of the possibilities. Cylinder gap is a generous 0.018"!!   My plan is to shoot the gun as-is to get baseline data, and to generate empty brass for experiments.  Then I'll send the cylinder off to DougGuy in North Carolina for him to uniform all of the chamber throats to .453” on his Sunnen hone, then to shoot it again. There are no plans for heavy loads in this, but only to work up charges which approximate the velocity of service ammo with Accurate 45-245D, which I use in the .45 Auto Rim. Obligatory Eye Candy is attached.  If you have one of these neat old guns, what do you shoot in yours?

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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45 2.1 posted this 20 October 2016

Nice condition Ed............please do not alter it by honing the cylinder throats. There are very few left in that condition. The dimensions given do not hurt accuracy provided you shoot a hollow base slug.... either the RCBS 265 gr. HB or the MP copy of it. I alter 45 Colt brass to Mk1 specs to load mine to original ballistics and have shot them from Colt, S&W and Webley handguns with excellent accuracy. Enjoy!

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Ed Harris posted this 20 October 2016

Unfortunately I consider 0.004” variation in cylinder throats entirely unacceptable from an engineering standpoint.  Unless by some miracle the gun shoots One Inch Per Ten (yards), it is probably going to get honed.   Let the collectors cry after I'm gone. Don't care. Only accurate revolvers are worth keeping and if they need a little help, so be it.

I've never seen a collector disassemble a revolver and pin cylinder throats to whine when a gun was skillfully tweaked without affecting its appearance or replacing original parts.99-44/100% would never even check and the remainder probably wouldn't understand if you explained what you did to them. It isn't going to be a safe queen...

I have no sentimental attraction for the original Mark 1 hollow-based bullet, having owned the Ideal mold and frustrated myself with it and one of the modern MiHec 4-cavity ones. I was unable to get acceptable grouping which would even meet standards for ordinary .45 ACP Ball ammunition during the WW2 era.  Bullet design has improved alot since 1887. The original Webley bullet is NOT one of the better examples of its period.  The 1887 service bullet for the Schofield was very much like Saeco #954 and is MUCH more accurate.  Please understand that I did give the MiHec mold extensive accuracy trials with black powder and with smokeless in .45 Schofield brass firing in the Colt New Service M1909 and Ruger Vaquero as well as in .45 Auto Rim brass in S&W .45 Hand Ejector. Grouping at 20 yards was not as good as modern Saeco and Accurate design bullets would do from the same guns at 50 yards!  Wheelweights, 1:20, 1:30, 1:40 made no difference.  Groups were not even “ordinary." I found accuracy results with the Mk.1 bullet inferior throughout, so  I sold the mold with no regrets. Today's modern designs by Tom Ellis at5 Accurate are far superior to the old turn of the 20th Century designs and his lathe-bored molds much better than the old style cherry cut ones from Lyman, RCBS, Saeco or H&G. I have his 45-245D which is well suited for the short Mark 2 cases now available, but I also have 45-240H1 ordered, which is a modern design for the .455.  There is a 272-grain version having the same nose length and shape which differs only in overall length, width of base band and lube groove.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 20 October 2016

Here is the drawing of Tom's 272-grain modern Webley bullet. Nose tolerance is negative, driving band tolerance is positive. When ordering you can specify diameter to fit your revolver and alloy of choice.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 20 October 2016

FWIW, although I am as much a collector as a shooter, I don't see honing the cylinder throats to a uniform diameter as any sort of “desecration” - the desecration was done at the factory, by the knucklehead who did such a poor job on the cylinder, and even more damnation needs to be heaped on the QA inspector who let it get out the door like that. (My day job is QA so I guess I'm entitled to say that).

Too bad you can't tighten up the cylinder gap, but unless there is a trick I don't know about, it appears you can't take the barrel off and set it into the frame one more turn like you could with say a SAA. So I guess you are stuck with the big gap, short of extreme modifications.

All that said, maybe it will shoot well enough as-is to be worth leaving as-is.

I don't have a Webley, but, I would think (mastering the obvious, I know) that whatever works for a .45 Auto Rim, ought to be OK here too, perhaps with a lower maximum pressure. At least as a starting point.

You have mentioned before that Unique seems hard to come by in your neck of the woods, but it has always been my “go-to” powder for oddball handgun rounds. It just always seems to give decent accuracy with any listed load, more so than similar flake powders like Red Dot, Green Dot, 700X, etc. Although a light load of Bullseye ought to work well, given similarity to .45 AR.

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Ed Harris posted this 20 October 2016

My plan is to fire graduated charge establishment with Bullseye using the RCBS Little Dandy rotors until I match the velocities of WW2 service ammo (if it will still go off) or the Unique handloads which came with the gun, if they don't seem excessive.

My gut instinct, based on 10% reduction from .45 Auto Rim data (to compensate for the shorter case) is that 3.0-3.2 of Bullseye will be about right with the Accurate 455-272H, 3.5 with the Accurate 45-245D and 45-259H and 4.0 with lighter 230-grainers, if needed to shoot to the sights. Left Accurate 45-245D in Hornady Mark II caseRight Accurate 45-259H in Mark I case modified from .45 Schofield by Reed's Custom Ammo.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 21 October 2016

Ed, You are reading my mind. My loads for the Lyman #457196 (290 grain) are 3.2 grains of Bullseye, 4.0 grains of SR7625 and 4.5 grains of Unique. These all deliver 600 f/s from the Dominion .455 Colt brass that I use. I don't know what they would do in modern brass, or with solid base bullets. I kept the hollow base bullet because it was the only thing that would shoot in my S&W with .459” cylinder throats. Yes, I had to use the Brownell tool to ream the throats to .452 as they varied from .448 to .451". My brother is playing “Zulu” re-enactor with it right now, but will have it back by spring. Ric

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RicinYakima posted this 21 October 2016

My two .455's.

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Ed Harris posted this 21 October 2016

Ric, when I get the new molds, if you guys out there would like to do a reprise of the .38 S&W / .380-200 tests in .455 for The Fouling Shot I would be pleased to send samples!

The 272-grain mold is coming first, because I want to do some long range 100-200 yard rifle shooting in .45 Colt also, to compare with the 290-grain version I already have and the 45-259EB black powder .45 Colt bullet.

If the Mark VI is sighted for lighter bullets I may get the 45-240H or order something in between about 250-260 grains weight with short shank and maintaining the .405” long nose for use in the Webley and in Schofield brass in the .45 Colt.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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giorgio de galleani posted this 21 October 2016

I am like a 6 years old child waiting for Santa Claus. Want to read  more posts on your work.I adore 45 ACP or Autorim revolvers. ( a 625  S$W)  I used to have a Wbley and a pair of SA italian clones in the  with the  ACP cylinder .Fabulous I regret having been compelled to sell them. I had three Ruger single action revolvers in 45 long colt , Very  good pieces , but  too stout kicking .for me .If I want  a powerful revolver the  S&W 629 44 Mag with Pachmayr grips as it hurts less in my hand.The correct shape of the grip in the shooters hand is paramount , like wearing the right hiking boots .  

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M3 Mitch posted this 21 October 2016

More for any young guys who might read this than for people participating in the thread, who probably already know this - that WWII ammo is very likely corrosive primed, right?

I think that US GI WWII ammo was corrosive primed.

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RicinYakima posted this 21 October 2016

Everything but M1 Carbine. Nothing soap and water will not cure.

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Ed Harris posted this 21 October 2016

There is French and Chinese .30 M1 carbine ammo out there which is corrosive. The Chinese stuff had an LC43 headstamp, but with twin Berdan flash holes!

The Webley revolver is easy to clean, as you can remove the cylinder to disassemble it, then hot water clean oil and reassemble, and the barrel can be cleaned from the breach. Boiling water, Royal Navy seawater soap followed by Holland & Holland's Rangoon Oil was the preferred method, but I use Ed's Red. http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/what-was-rangoon-gun-oil-19430>http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/what-was-rangoon-gun-oil-19430 http://oldtimeangler.tripod.com/index/guncleaning.htm>http://oldtimeangler.tripod.com/index/guncleaning.htm

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 21 October 2016

RicinYakima wrote: Everything but M1 Carbine. Nothing soap and water will not cure. True, but I wanted to bring this (that WWII era GI ammo is frequently corrosive-primed) up for the benefit of any younger readers who might not know about this.  Any sort of water-based cleaner will take out the salts, but a guy needs to know that he needs to do this.

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RicinYakima posted this 22 October 2016

M3, You are right. I always just assume that any military ammo is corrosive, as much was made into the 1960's and even later.

Ed, Glad to help you test those bullets. Have to check to see if we have an N frame Ranson rest block.

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RicinYakima posted this 22 October 2016

Ed, The three old guys await you pleasure. Do you have a size case you want us to use? Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 22 October 2016

Most of the brass I have is recent production Hornady Mark II, which is the shorter case with large primer. I have one box of once-fired Fiocchi Mark II with small primer pocket.

Would be nice to get some comparison with CIL .455 Eley or other make of .455 in the longer Mark I case if anybody has any, but for the purpose of load development I'll stick to the Hornady brass as being most common, unless Starline decides to make it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 22 October 2016

I have the CIL “Dominium” cases and about 25 Hornady case, if those are good. They are both large pistol size, I believe.

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Ed Harris posted this 22 October 2016

Hornadys are the short Mark II case and CILs are the long ones. It would be good to have some velocity and accuracy tests in the long cases vs. short ones. I have 500 of the Hornady cases, so have those covered, but I have none of the long ones. Reed's Custom Ammo offers cut down and rim turned .45 Colt cases for $30 for 50, so I may get some of those to test.

I see you have two revolvers, does Joe Gifford or any of the others guys out there want to play?  Would be nice to find somebody with a Colt New Service so that we have all the bases covered.  Need to plan on how many bullets to cast and pack for you.  Bullets from the Accurate molds won't drop large enough for the S&W as they all are .452-.454 depending on design.45-245D does run .454-.455 depending on alloy.

I'll shoot up the 265-grain HB and 230 LRN ammo which came with the gun, and the little bit of MkVIz K42 ball I have to get empties.  

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 23 October 2016

That is why I kept the HB mould, they work in everything. I may try expanding them in a .458 or .459 sizing die.

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JeffinNZ posted this 23 October 2016

ED: Is there anything you can do when loading the ammo to account for the generous cylinder gap? Does powder speed make a difference. That's an awful lot of nothing between cylinder and barrel. More like porting!

Cheers from New Zealand

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