22 250 225415 AND TITEGROUP

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  • Last Post 24 May 2016
joeb33050 posted this 13 May 2016

RIFLE AND PISTOL

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mtngun posted this 14 May 2016

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joeb33050 posted this 14 May 2016

So far; No 223 barrel shoots CBs accurately, reliably-I have a new barrel to test today All except 1 22-250 barrels shoot 225646M and 8/SR4756 accurately, reliably. More testing of that 1 today. No powder yet, in 22-250, is as accurate as SR4756; including Titegroup, Blue Dot and IMR 4227. Testing continues. Ken is chambering a not-accurate 223 barrel to 22-250, to see if it shoots accurately. I need NOE nose size parts, the guy doesn't answer emails. joe b.

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mtngun posted this 14 May 2016

joeb33050 wrote: I have a new barrel to test today Ken is chambering a not-accurate 223 barrel to 22-250, Is your “new” 223 barrel another $50 Savage barrel? I look forward to the results with the re-chambered barrel.     

Thanks as always for sharing real data.   :dude: I can't help you with NOE.    He seems to be trying to be the new Lee.   Lee is not something I have ever aspired to be.   :D  :D  :D

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.22-10-45 posted this 14 May 2016

Interesting about using Titegroup powder. I have been using Vhtavuori N110 & N120 in a Shilen barreled 1-14” twist .22 Hornet. a bit more accurate than my go-to H4227 powder for this ctg. & alot cleaner burning. I have also used N120 with very good accuracy..going to have to chrono this powder, as report and pressures seem to equal jacketed loads.

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joeb33050 posted this 14 May 2016

A while back I bought a Savage heavy varmint barrel in 22-250, allegedly new, for $110. It shot cast bullets VERY poorly. John Alexander agreed to borescope etc inspect the barrel, off it went, John inspected, and back it came. I put it on a M10 action. The 225646M bullet, gas checked, unsized, LLA, with 8/SR4756 is the most accurate load in 2 22” Savage sporter barrels and the Striker pistol. After a few foulers, it shot a 5 shot 100 yard group of 7 3/8 inches. I thought the OAL might be a little too much, reduced it from 2.34” to 2.21 inches on five cartridges and shot them into a group of  7 3/4 inches. I had loaded Hornady 55 gr VMAX with 34/Varget, shot a few to sight in and shot groups of 1.45” and 1.1".

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joeb33050 posted this 14 May 2016

With the 22-250 barrel, John Alexander sent me a 26” heavy varmint Savage barrel in 223. John got this barrel from Pat Iffland. I screwed this on a Savage 12FV action, loaded 225646M with 9.5/IMR4227-as good a load as any I've tried in the past 3 years, and shot 5 shot 100 yard groups of 3.2", 3.5", 2.8", 3.3” and 4.15". Average = 3.39".

Hornady 55 gr VMAX and 25/Varget shot into 1.85” and 1.0".

(These jacketed loads are bullets and powder on hand, about a starting load, no load development.

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OU812 posted this 14 May 2016

I started to use the word FOOLISHNESS, but I think I will be nice.

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joeb33050 posted this 14 May 2016

I've shot a lot of 223 barrels, two 3 year stints, and have never found a Savage barrel to shoot cast bullets into 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages much under 2", reliably. Right now I wouldn't take an even money bet that I could average <2". I'd like to hear about/from anyone shooting ~ 1.5” cb, 223. I'm done with the 223, it makes no sense to go on, with Savage barrels. I'm thinking about a non-Savage custom barrel in 223.

22-250 is easy to shoot accurately with cast bullets. I have 2 22” Savage sporter barrels that will average ~ 1.5", and a Striker that averages <2"-a pistol.

SR4756 is the most accurate powder for me in 22-250 with cast. I'm searching for a substitute, since this powder is no longer made.

The 223 to 22-250 rechamber should tell us/suggest if the larger ctg in a 223 bbl is accurate. 

And the beat goes on.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 May 2016

water and vodka makes you drunk ... water and vodka makes you drunk... water and rum makes you drunk ...

easy to see that water should be kept out of the mouths of children ...

savage barrels in 223 shoot bigger groups ...

??

ken

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 May 2016

joeb...you should be able to find takeoff remmy barrels in 223 for $50 ...need to be adapted, but i have tooling for that .

if ready for stage three, i will look in my stash and see if i have anything interesting ...

stage 4 would be a match quality barrel in the first place ... but that would ruin the hunt ...

hey what do you think about a nice 22 rimfire barrel ... probably 15-16 twist but it shot 3/8 at 50 yards ... not good enough for 22 rf match but might be a step up from those mysterious savages ... might stabilize 55 gr cast ...450, 462, etc .... i would donate it for the fun of it :: weird is more interesting .

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 14 May 2016

OU812 wrote: I started to use the word FOOLISHNESS, but I think I will be nice.I keep checking the mail for your miraculous .82” long bullets that stabilize in a 12” twist. The rifle is ready! Should I send postage? So far, I'm not IMPRESSED! joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 16 May 2016

I recently posted above about the 22-250 HV barrel that shot groups of 7 3/8” and 7 3/4", and showed a picture of these groups. This with 225646M, GC, unsized, LLA, 8 grains of SR4756. I had loaded a batch of these, plenty left. I took the HV barrel off, screwed the $50 Savage M11 barrel on the M10, and shot it. Five 5 shot groups averaged 1.485". The Savage 22-250 barrels average around 1.5” with this load.

The HV 22-250 barrel is inaccurate with cast bullets, probably fine with jacketed. Maybe we should wonder why some barrels shoot jacketed and won't shoot cast.

Searching for the substitute for the defunct SR4756, tried Titegroup. Five 5 shot groups averaged 1.515” Titegroup seems to shoot slightly larger groups than SR4756.

Is anyone impressed?

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joeb33050 posted this 17 May 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: joeb...you should be able to find takeoff remmy barrels in 223 for $50 ...need to be adapted, but i have tooling for that .

Can't find one.

if ready for stage three, i will look in my stash and see if i have anything interesting ...

Please look.

stage 4 would be a match quality barrel in the first place ... but that would ruin the hunt ...

hey what do you think about a nice 22 rimfire barrel ... probably 15-16 twist but it shot 3/8 at 50 yards ... not good enough for 22 rf match but might be a step up from those mysterious savages ... might stabilize 55 gr cast ...450, 462, etc .... i would donate it for the fun of it :: weird is more interesting .

A 22 rf barrel chambered to 223 or 22-250 in 15-16” twist will, according to Greenhill, stabilize the NOE 37 or 45 grain bullets, the Lyman 225438, or a mountain molds mold-I can't figure out if mountain makes 22 molds. If you'll machine a 22 rf barrel, I'll buy the mold. Maybe we can duplicate 22rf performance in a cf.

ken

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billglaze posted this 17 May 2016

Ken and Joe: Boy, the comparison suggested above has me on the edge of my seat--I'd be highly interested to see if there's a difference between a rimfire-spec barrel, and achieving the same (or similar) performance with a center fire. In any event, it sure would open up a new corridor for experimentation.

I recently started shooting my Mom's original Rem.Mod. 37 Rangemaster that I inherited. Even ammo that's not top-of-the-line Match stuff, the accuracy is kind of amazing. Particularly so, considering the rifle hadn't been shot for at least 60 years. (And no, you guys can't have the barrel!) (VBG!)

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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Paul Pollard posted this 17 May 2016

Joe B,

You wrote: I had loaded Hornady 55 gr VMAX with 34/Varget, shot a few to sight in and shot groups of 1.45” and 1.1".

Just curious, Joe. When you try your barrels with jacketed bullets, you use a starting load of Varget with good results. Have you tried the jacketed bullets with your cast bullet powder and charge? What are those results?

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 17 May 2016

billg::

we all enjoy the challenge of trying to get our cast rigs to shoot under 2 moa ...

but once in a while, it is just cathartic to pull out a good rimfire rifle and good rf ammo... and watch the bullet hit the crosshair at 50 yards ... every time ... sigh ...

when i had my 40X my grandsons and i would shoot flys at 50 yards ... sigh ... ( soft lead, no gascheck, short bearing surface, length too short ... ) ...

i doubt that a 22 rimfire barrel is of better mfg. than a good centerfire ... but then it's available, and what the heck ... this one is a rem. custom shop 40X takeoff ... vt. in SS.

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 17 May 2016

Paul Pollard wrote: Joe B,

You wrote: I had loaded Hornady 55 gr VMAX with 34/Varget, shot a few to sight in and shot groups of 1.45” and 1.1".

Just curious, Joe. When you try your barrels with jacketed bullets, you use a starting load of Varget with good results. Have you tried the jacketed bullets with your cast bullet powder and charge? What are those results?No. I have few jacketed  bullets, had a box of 250 Horn 55 gr VMAX, They're loaded-~25?, otherwise gone. Every now and then I shoot a few jacketed bullets to see if the barrel shoots. I don't know much about jacketed, but I've never seen a barrel shoot cast that won't shoot jacketed. I've seen several that shoot jacketed, but do very poorly with cast. I suspect it's true that if the barrel won't shoot jacketed accurately, it won't shoot cast accurately. However, now that I think of it, I've never had a Savage barrel that wouldn't accurately shoot jacketed, < 1.5” for a couple of groups out of the chute, no load development. Jacketed and 8/SR4756, I don't see the point. I'll try a few, 22-250, 8/SR4756. But those jbs are expensive!

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joeb33050 posted this 17 May 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: billg::

we all enjoy the challenge of trying to get our cast rigs to shoot under 2 moa ...

but once in a while, it is just cathartic to pull out a good rimfire rifle and good rf ammo... and watch the bullet hit the crosshair at 50 yards ... every time ... sigh ...

when i had my 40X my grandsons and i would shoot flys at 50 yards ... sigh ... ( soft lead, no gascheck, short bearing surface, length too short ... ) ...

i doubt that a 22 rimfire barrel is of better mfg. than a good centerfire ... but then it's available, and what the heck ... this one is a rem. custom shop 40X takeoff ... vt. in SS.

kenI've been heard to mumble that all 22s shoot well. I had a Savage 19 NRA Match that would reliably hit shotgun shells standing up at 100 yards. From Rem single shots to J. C. Higgins to Marlin 39As, they all seem to shoot. The only 22 that I've found to be inaccurate is my/grandkids Ruger 10 22. Any ammo, just poor. I'll bet that most any bolt action cheap single shot 22 will shoot 1” fifty yard groups with some ammo. Eley red box? My 12/15 Martini will reliably average 1” at 100 yards with 30X STS and good ammo, no wind, and that rifle has led a long hard life.

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billglaze posted this 17 May 2016

Joe and Ken: There just has to be some kind or idiocy in our working our butts off, generally unsuccessfully, to get the occasional 1.5 moa center fire group, when we have complete control over all aspects of the ammo--varying powder and charge, tailoring velocity, etc. etc.--it could just go on and on. Then, to take a .22 rim fire out, and shoot less than 1/2” at 50 yards without using top-drawer ammo that's been shaken right out of a box grabbed from a dept. store shelf--as Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) would say: “The irony is just sickening.”

We're still in the game; I guess we'll just have to keep playing it.

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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joeb33050 posted this 17 May 2016

billglaze wrote: Joe and Ken: There just has to be some kind or idiocy in our working our butts off, generally unsuccessfully, to get the occasional 1.5 moa center fire group, when we have complete control over all aspects of the ammo--varying powder and charge, tailoring velocity, etc. etc.--it could just go on and on. Then, to take a .22 rim fire out, and shoot less than 1/2” at 50 yards without using top-drawer ammo that's been shaken right out of a box grabbed from a dept. store shelf--as Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) would say: “The irony is just sickening.”

We're still in the game; I guess we'll just have to keep playing it.

BillBill; You're not making me feel happy about my gooning about with these dam cast bullets. Perhaps jacketed with cast loads of powder. At least I'm not coating them with plastic and baking them-the boss has spoken on that topic. If only John would go to the cellar! joe b.

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billglaze posted this 17 May 2016

Joe, just sent you a reply on the other thread about the 225438. Please don't ever, ever, let me discourage you and/or Ken, or others. We're (or I should say you and others) are turning this list into an experimenters Paradise. The only thing I would say to y'all, is to be sure to keep enjoying what we're all doing this stuff for: KEEP HAVING FUN!

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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gpidaho posted this 18 May 2016

Well Joe, I'm still plastic coating them so no need to rile the Mrs. I can even do them semi-satin to go with the prom dress. No one at the range can tell the clear coating from a lite coat of 45-45-10. Offer is always good if you would like to give a few a ride. Thanks for all the help you've given me in the cast bullet world. Gp

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 May 2016

billg:

yep cheap 22 rf shooting 1-2 moa.... and joes's professional 223 castigaters shooting 7 moa ....

laugh? cry ? my red ryder did better than that ...

we probably could learn more from the 7 moa groups than we do from 2-3 moa groups .....if only we knew what questions to ask . what the heck could happen to a bullet to make it miss a barn door at 100 yards ??

??

ken

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 May 2016

joe ... the factory 10-22 has no bedding.. it just flops around shot to shot like a frisky colt .i took mine to an ara match one time ( just to give the farmers an even break.....) ... i actually got a negative score ...i couldn't even get it centered on the target ... couldn't figure where the center of the group was ...

i tightened it up later and now can hit a bean can at 30 yards ...

some glue in the barrel and float the action .

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 18 May 2016

These with 225415, just measured 1 at .612". The 6.5 Titegroup avg is slightly better than the 6.0 avg, will shoot more. Striker. The Striker avg is slightly over 2” for all but the VERY failed experiments. Striker twist is 12".

The 9.5 IMR4227 is the best 223 load-not great but best. Since Titegroup charges are ~= accuracy in either 223 or 22-250, I tried 9.5 IMR4227 in 22-250. 12” twist. The bullets impacted ~5” lower than 6.5 Titegroup, and went through pretty sideways.

225” .612” bullet, Greenhill, requires 12.4” twist or faster, and 12” is faster. At probably very low velocity they don't stabilize. However, I am not impressed. The faster bullets didn't tip. I'll shoot increasing IMR4227 loads to see if/when tipping goes away.

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billglaze posted this 18 May 2016

BTW; As another form of rim fire insult to my personal persona: Returning home after a .22 bench rest Match with Mom's old Rem. 37, the thought suddenly struck me: I don't have to spend hours reloading these things!  Just open another box! Bill (I felt that Ken would appreciate the thought;  then again, maybe not. Bill 

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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Brodie posted this 18 May 2016

Joe, could you please photograph your targets against a dark back ground. It would make the bullet holes much easier for us to see. Photo data is useless unless we can see it.

B.E.Brickey

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 May 2016

back when i was shooting ara rimfire, i was working 27 hours a day and had very little time for practice or sorting ammo ... what little time i did take was to build rifles and try weird things .

ha i have been known to fall asleep at the bench during my match ...anyway i have picked up a brick of federal plinkers at a gas station on the 200 mile drive to a match . eley was better ... much better .

i guess i just liked to watch the bullets through my 20X flying down toward my target ...farmers are easily entertained ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 18 May 2016

Old Coot wrote: Joe, could you please photograph your targets against a dark back ground. It would make the bullet holes much easier for us to see. Photo data is useless unless we can see it.How is the picture now?

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mtngun posted this 18 May 2016

Much better, Joe.   Thanks! :)

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Brodie posted this 19 May 2016

Much better .   Thank You

B.E.Brickey

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M3 Mitch posted this 19 May 2016

joeb33050 wrote: I've shot a lot of 223 barrels, two 3 year stints, and have never found a Savage barrel to shoot cast bullets into 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages much under 2", reliably. Right now I wouldn't take an even money bet that I could average <2". I'd like to hear about/from anyone shooting ~ 1.5” cb, 223. I'm done with the 223, it makes no sense to go on, with Savage barrels. I'm thinking about a non-Savage custom barrel in 223.

22-250 is easy to shoot accurately with cast bullets. I have 2 22” Savage sporter barrels that will average ~ 1.5", and a Striker that averages <2"-a pistol.

SR4756 is the most accurate powder for me in 22-250 with cast. I'm searching for a substitute, since this powder is no longer made.

The 223 to 22-250 rechamber should tell us/suggest if the larger ctg in a 223 bbl is accurate. 

And the beat goes on." Is it the .223 chambering or maybe (my guess) the .223 throat is not a good one for CBs?   If you have barrels that won't shoot as is, I don't see much downside in re-throating.  A chamber cast of both guns would provide actual data to compare.

Do the .223s shoot jacketed bullets OK?  I have had OK results in 22-250 and in 22 Hornet, but have not tried cast in a .223.  (In fact my first CB rifle loads were for my old Ruger 22-250, like a bumble bee does not know the laws of aerodynamics say it can't fly and flies anyway, I didn't know that the big over-bore .22-250 should be hard to get shooting with CBs, and loaded up some Lyman flat nose CB's with gas checks over a light load of 700-X, and it shot fine.)

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OU812 posted this 19 May 2016

I like this Saeco bullet.

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OU812 posted this 19 May 2016

I believe this shorter version will shoot decent...especially with softer alloys.

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joeb33050 posted this 20 May 2016

Striker

225415 and 9.5 IMR4227 went thrugh the paper sideways. Loaded 10, 10.5, 11, 11.5 and 12 gr shot as shown. A few of the 12 gr charge bullets were still tipping.

40 gr. Varemageddon jacketed bullets, 7 gr. Titegroup,  3 sighters/foulers, then 5 in .95", 5 in .575". 

 

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OU812 posted this 20 May 2016

Joe,

Try the 55 grain Nosler Balistic Tips. They would shoot .250 groups in my 1/12 twist 223 Remington.

Tracking shows you should receive cast bullets today. I am sure they will shoot fine.

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joeb33050 posted this 21 May 2016

OU812 wrote: Joe,

Try the 55 grain Nosler Balistic Tips. They would shoot .250 groups in my 1/12 twist 223 Remington.

Tracking shows you should receive cast bullets today. I am sure they will shoot fine.Thank you. I got the bulletys yesterday. They are .89” long. I checked the twist, again, on the M11 barrel on the M10 action; it is 1 turn in 12". I used 1 bullet to find oal, 2.655” is a hard push in. Loaded five ctgs with 7/Titegroup. Will shoot Monday. Thanks for the bullets; joe b.

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OU812 posted this 21 May 2016

joeb33050 wrote: I used 1 bullet to find oal, 2.655” is a hard push in. Loaded five ctgs with 7/Titegroup. Will shoot Monday. Thanks for the bullets; joe b. You are welcome. Make sure bullet is not being pushed back too far into case and that front band jams into rifling.

.....

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OU812 posted this 22 May 2016

Hey Joe,

Less neck tension will allow for easier chambering. It also prevents that pesky ring on bullets nose when seating soft bullet in seating die. Less neck tension also helps me load more concentric rounds. The Lee collet die can be adjusted for this.

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joeb33050 posted this 23 May 2016

I shot the 5 modified 227-80 NOE bullets, .89” long, 7.0/Titegroup, in a Savage M10 with M11 22” barrel. At 50 yards, because I knew that they wouldn't stabilize. 1 sighter 225415, then the 5. Barrel was 22-250 with 12” carefully/frequently measured twist.

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mtngun posted this 23 May 2016

That's a decent start, Joe.   223 or 22-250?

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joeb33050 posted this 23 May 2016

mtngun wrote: That's a decent start, Joe.   223 or 22-250?ADDED EDITS.

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gpidaho posted this 23 May 2016

joeb3350: I hope this relieves a little tension Joe, you were beginning to develop an eye tic. Persistence is paying off. Nice work. Gp

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mtngun posted this 23 May 2016

Thanks for the clarification, Joe.  :)

I've always wondered if the very tip of a sharp spitzer should count when estimating stability?     Say, compared to taking the same bullet and filing the tip back to a small meplat similar to OU812's proposed “improved 75 grain” design?     It's hard to believe that the tip changes the balance that much?

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Paul Pollard posted this 23 May 2016

According to the JBM site, a smaller meplat on the same bullet increases the stability. I used .1 caliber tip vs .35 caliber tip and it increased sg from 1.4 and 13.6 twist to 1.5 and 14.0 twist at the same velocity. So maybe the old saw about the base being important and not the tip....maybe not.

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OU812 posted this 23 May 2016

Good shooting, but I am disappointed you did not shoot them at 100 yards. More tinkering with different powders and better loading techniques will really tighten those groups.

I would like to see NOE modify this mold with shorter Gas Check shank.

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joeb33050 posted this 23 May 2016

OU812 wrote: Good shooting, but I am disappointed you did not shoot them at 100 yards. More tinkering with different powders and better loading techniques will really tighten those groups. I would like to see NOE modify this mold with shorter Gas Check shank.I shot at 50 yards because I knew the bullets wouldn't stabilize or stay on the paper at 100 yards!! (Didn't look at Greenhill closely enough!)Wednesday I'll try again! Please send 300 bullets gas checked and lubed, and I'll wring them out. Maybe 400. Do what you think best. 500?

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OU812 posted this 23 May 2016

The vertical stringing is caused by wide velocity spread...smaller case like 221 Fireball, 222, 223 will improve grouping. The soft 20-1 alloy is easy to cut smooth bases without tear holes or raised sprue cuts. I have lots of these to test

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 May 2016

is total confusion a sure indication that great understanding is sure to shortly follow ?

my vessel is awaiting imminent fulfillment ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 24 May 2016

mtngun wrote: Thanks for the clarification, Joe.  :)

I've always wondered if the very tip of a sharp spitzer should count when estimating stability?     Say, compared to taking the same bullet and filing the tip back to a small meplat similar to OU812's proposed “improved 75 grain” design?     It's hard to believe that the tip changes the balance that much?

We'd expect bullets to stabilize at slower-than-expected twists if bullet density is higher than 10.9, atmosphere density is slow or velocity is very high. Well, it isn't the density of the bullet or atmosphere, and it's not the velocity. The bullet is far from a prolate spheroid, so maybe it's the shape. This is an example of little testing required to prove a fact. A .89” long .224” dia. bullet at low velocity (7/Titegroup) stabilizing in a 12” twist barrel, or 2, opens up a whole new aproach to CB accuracy.  

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John Alexander posted this 24 May 2016

Paul Pollard wrote:According to the JBM site, a smaller meplat on the same bullet increases the stability. I used .1 caliber tip vs .35 caliber tip and it increased sg from 1.4 and 13.6 twist to 1.5 and 14.0 twist at the same velocity. So maybe the old saw about the base being important and not the tip....maybe not. Paul, You are beginning to sound a little like certain articles in TFS in challenging some of the RECEIVED WISDOM FROM THE MASTERS. Shame. John

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OU812 posted this 24 May 2016

joeb33050 wrote: Please send 300 bullets gas checked and lubed, and I'll wring them out. Maybe 400. Do what you think best. 500? Joe, I will send you some more bullets since you like testing and posting pictures. I will send some 1/20 alloy and harder 13 bhn birdshot alloy. The harder 13 bhn likes higher pressures so push these harder. These are cast directly from my shortened mold (not trimmed). I believe that dipping bullets in Alox will work, but barrel may foul sooner maybe?

BTW all bullets are cast at max temp of 900 degrees using RCBS bottom pour pot. I was pressure casting, but this caused too much weight variation. Now I just hold mold about 1/4 from spout and pour into front and rear cavity (avoiding center cavity improves venting). Adjusting spout flow so that it flows slower improves bullet fill out.

...

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