A Hint, Maybe

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  • Last Post 09 December 2015
joeb33050 posted this 01 October 2015

In the winter I had a thought that some of my bullets were being pushed into the case on chambering, some not, affected accuracy. Lee Collet Die with decapper out crimps the loaded case mouth/neck. Loaded and shot 308's twice, outstanding accuracy, maybe a fluke. Then we moved, I had 2 cataract ops, I can see! Loaded 223, crimped necks, shot last week first time since March with rifle, poor range and horrible climate, but shot very well at 50 yards. Loaded again, crimped necks, shot today, poor range and horrible hot humid conditions, shot the attached target and left. 50 yards These are great groups for me at 50 yards. Nothing proven, but maybe a hint?

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billglaze posted this 01 October 2015

Joe:Comngratulations!I was concerned when you seemingly gave up on the .22s; I figured if you couldn't get something to your liking, what chance did I have?Now you're seemingly on track, which for some strange reason, I feel comforting.  (Not that I'm a part of your research, of course.)I needed the encouragement because the .220 Swift with which I'm working, seems a whole lot more intransigent than when I was working the caliber so many years ago. Maybe there's hope yet; selected loads seem to be fairly easy to obtain if I's satisfied with 2” or so.I'm not; not even a little bit.  I'm keeping busy trying things; the mathematical possibilities should keep me busy until some time after the year 2200. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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John Alexander posted this 02 October 2015

WOW!   Joe,  It looks like the evil 22 CB fairy may have finally decided to leave you alone.

Of course she may be just s**kering you in for later torment or maybe 110 F and 100% relative humidity is what it takes.

Will look forward to more groups.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 October 2015

i suspect joeb of putting magnets behind his aiming dots ... old trick ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 12 October 2015

Same loads at 50 yards, 7/IMR4227, Tula SP  

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joeb33050 posted this 12 October 2015

The other bullet

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joeb33050 posted this 12 October 2015

At 100 yards, 7.3 grains of powder, 225415 = no groups. The NOE bullet shot better, Didn't load the 646M.

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Mike H posted this 12 October 2015

In my opinion you need more powder,or change to another powder.Mike.

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Mike H posted this 13 October 2015

Joe,     My apologies,I didn't look carefully enough to see your last groups were at 100 yards.I have used 13 and 13.5 grs of ADI 2205 (H4227) with 55 gr RCBS bullets.Mike.

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billglaze posted this 13 October 2015

Joe, not to stick my nose in, but right now, the best accuracy for me and the .220 Swift, has been about 4-5 gr. of Titegroup; about the same with Red Dot.  With the 225415 bullet around 1-1/2” for 10 shots at 100 yds.  Most of the time.(g) Also, your formula for 2” groups to encourage beginners, worked great, for me.  I'm not exactly what would normally be called a beginner, but was curious to give the concept a try.  Inasmuch as I already had the Savage M 12, no extra expense incurred, and the Lyman 311299 (which I already had)  has proven the best for my rifles.  Only difference was in powder amount:  I backed down on the 4227 to 14 gr. before I got my best performance with that powder.Sorry the .223 hasn't worked out better, but there's always tomorrow. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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joeb33050 posted this 21 October 2015

Now at 100 yards I tried the 3 bullets with 8 and 9 grains of IMR4227. All with gas checks, some with the groove above the gas check lubed with Lyman Moly and sized .225x", some unsized and LLA. It seemed that the unsized/gc/LLA bullets shot a little better, but group averages were well above 2". 10/20/15 the last loaded 225415 gc sized lyman moly with 10/IMR4227 shot the first 5 all over the paper, so I shot all 30 aimed at 1 target. 30 in 5.2", 25 in 2.375", 20 in 2”    

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joeb33050 posted this 21 October 2015

The 225646M, unsized/gc/LLA shot 5 groups into 1.86” average with 10/IMR4227.

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joeb33050 posted this 21 October 2015

And the 225415 gc/unsized/LLA averaged 1.44” for 5, 5 shot, 100 yard groups. These aren't great groups, but they are the best targets I've ever shot with cast bullets in a 223. I suspect that crimping the neck/mouth in the Lee Collet Die may be the trick, that some bullets set back on chambering and others don't, =ing big groups. Or it could be my new eyesight. At any rate, the 2 5 shot 5 group targets were the 106th and 107th target records with this gun, and the first time that  it's shown any hope at all.

Now to dance around 10/IMR4227 for a while.

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John Alexander posted this 21 October 2015

Congratulations.  I shot 415s (which worked better than anything else at the time) out of a good Sako for several years and 1.5” was the best I could average.  Bill has done better with his Swift and 415s but 1.44” for five consequetive groups impresses me. You have a great squirrel load.

Why don't you check out your theory that crimping is helping because  bullets may be being pushed back upon chambering by chambering an (or several) uncrimped dummy rounds and measuring them after extraction to see? 

John 

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billglaze posted this 23 October 2015

Joe, looks as if you're on the right track. I haven't gotten anything good out of the 646's yet, the 415's are the best I've gotten going, and they're still not good enough. But, I'm not giving up on them; too many folks have gotten them shooting well. I've not yet run out of tricks to try. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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joeb33050 posted this 26 October 2015

There are two other changes to old methods. The cartridge cases are lubed, on a folded cloth with synthetic motor oil. After loading they're rolled on the cloth, just a light bit of oil on the cases. The headspace remains constant, headspace is not decreased as sometimes happens with light lads.

After oiling cases the LLA bullet parts outside the neck have more LLA put on, just a bit, with fingers.

I don't know that either helps, but they help me.

joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 28 October 2015

And on October 27 it all went to pieces. NOE 227-80, only found 3 groups, avg 1.65"-10/IMR4227 225415, 5 groups, 2.980” avg - 10.5/IMR4227 225646M, 5 groups, 2.24” avg, - 10.5/IMR4227

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joeb33050 posted this 28 October 2015

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joeb33050 posted this 28 October 2015

225646M

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OU812 posted this 29 October 2015

My LBT 62gr bullets require a longer freebore. Bullets have snug slip fit when chambered. Loaded rounds have very low run out. 12 BHN bullets are cast HOT for best fillout and consistant weights. I size and seat GC nose first thru the RCBS lube machine. Lower velocities (1400-1800fps)group better.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 29 October 2015

thanks joeb for your efforts ... and hopefully:: patience .

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 30 October 2015

Shot today
Summary of October 2015 new eyes groups
100 YARD 5 SHOT 5 GROUP AVERAGES
all IMR4227
                                                AVG
BULLET            CHARGE            GROUP
225415            9.5                   2.25
225415            10                    1.44
225415            10.5                 2.98
225646M            9.5                   1.48
225646M            10                    1.86
225646M            10.5                 2.29
227-80             9.5                   3.28
227-80             10                    1.983
 
It looks like the Savage 12 FV 223 will average under 2” with 225415 and 225646M, with a little more work.
The NOE 227-80 doesn’t do a well.

 

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 31 October 2015

as a lonely little data dot ... out of my remmy 222 sporter and ruger 1 varmint 22-250 ... both lyman 224438 y 224462 long term average was between 2.5 and 3.5 moa ... actually the 438 was slightly the better ; gas checked and lots of loads.

i spect your rig as is would win most club level sporter matches .

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John Alexander posted this 31 October 2015

Joe, What is your overall length of load rounds with the 227-80?  Just wondering about your throat.

Do you get black bore fouling half way down the barrel?

John

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joeb33050 posted this 31 October 2015

John Alexander wrote: Joe, What is your overall length of load rounds with the 227-80?  Just wondering about your throat.

Do you get black bore fouling half way down the barrel?

John John; Around 2.460", 2.450", I'm trying for the snug but not tight feeling on chambering. The NOE mold gives me a lot of whiskers. I think I need to mark the molds to segregate the bullets. With Lyman Super Moly OR LLA there s no substantial fouling. I clean the gun when thr groups go crazy, hoping for lead-I can fix THAT. No lead, and it cleans up in ?8-10 teeny patches. Generally I just run a few patches with WD40 then synthetic oil, it's very humid here. Maybe back to Blue Dot soon. joe b.

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John Alexander posted this 31 October 2015

Thanks Joe. Your OAL is not much different from what I am using (2.55” which usually pushes back to 2.50” upon chambering) in the Tikka which seemed to have a SAAMI throat.

The reason I asked about the fouling was that all four of my 223 Savage M-12s had a foot long loose spot in the middle and there was where hard black fouling appeared.  Maybe I should try that Lyman Super Moly.

John

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billglaze posted this 31 October 2015

John, I believe that you and Joe have had similar experiences with the Savage .22 barrels.  Have yoiu heard anything negative about the 6 mm heavy barrels?   Reason is, I'm considering buying a Savage Model 12 in 6 mm Norma BR, and I don't want to fight a bad barrel right out of the box.Anybody else, feel free to chime in. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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John Alexander posted this 31 October 2015

Bill, I have found that the four Savage 223s that I have had were all excellent with jacketed bullets.  I think the loose midsection in the bore may be the reason that I could never come close to equaling that accuracy with CBs.  But, of course I'm not sure.

I expect you know that Savage 308s, have dominated CBA production class for the last 15 years although Remington seems to getting closer recently.   I know nothing about their 6mm barrels. if you are lucky they might be tending to barrels for the 6mm Norma BR with a bit more TLC knowing that customers for that caliber will be more interested in accuracy than the ordinary bear -- pure speculation.

I fired next to a friend with a Sako varmint rifle in 6mm PPC this summer in a local match when he out Xed two hard core score benchrest shooters shooting their full race bench guns who often win matches all over New England. Sako makes excellent rifles but, after seeing that performance, I wondered if they maybe didn't do a little extra lapping on their PPC's barrels -- more speculation. John

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billglaze posted this 31 October 2015

I understand, John. I'm kinda philosophical about it; I figure that it can get down to just how particular the worker might be, if he's under time pressure from the foreman, and, probably, a hundred other things, including whether or not the guy missed breakfast. The Savage M 12 that I do have, I under-rated in accuracy; expecting sub-moa groups that a friend said it would do. Then, when I went down to the basement and grabbed some Federal Match, and it didn't perform as expected, I was highly disappointed. So, for 2 years I shot it with cast only. Then, after thinking about it, and realizing that the ammo was “gifted” to me by the Marine Corps at Pendleton, and was nearly 30 years old, decided to take another look. Result: A 5/16” group at 100 yards with new handloads.

Enter the puzzle: I can't get it to shoot at 200 yards. Same loads, etc. Anyway, I like the Savage, and will keep working with it, as well as with the 6 mm Norma BR. If I can ever locate one locally; I don't want to mess with freighting it in. So far, none of the distributors has one. We'll see; I don't give up easily

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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joeb33050 posted this 04 November 2015

Shot 3 bullets 11/3/15 with 7.5/A#9, 30 shots each bullet. Groups fair to horrible, this with some moly-lubed and sized. The gun doesn't like A#9 particularly. Also doesn't like sized bullets or Lyman Super Moly.

It seems to like ~9.5/IMR4227. Unsized gas checked bullets with LLA, thin coat. Neck crimped in Lee Collet die with decapper out.

Back to this recipe next time.

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billglaze posted this 04 November 2015

Joe, how do you apply the gas check, without running the bullet into a sizing die?I've been wanting to try this business of unsized bullets in the Swift, but can't figure out how to get the GC sized, without running the bullet partially, at least, into the Lubrisizer die. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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joeb33050 posted this 04 November 2015

I put the gc on, then into a .228 sizing die JUST A SMIDGE! until the gc won't pull off with a thumbnail. I do the same with 30's, gc first. joe b.

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billglaze posted this 04 November 2015

Thanks, Joe; I'll give it  a try and see if I can duplicate your efforts.  Last time I tried unsized bullets, I had some that missed the paper.  They maybe missed the backstop. I'm going to try again; it's been so many years ago, I can't remember which rifle, what the caliber was, etc. etc.I think it was possibly such a traumatic failure, that I produced my own memory block! Bill 

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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beltfed posted this 05 November 2015

billglaze, If you still have some of that MCorp Fed 308 Match try breaking the 'age seal” on the bullets by reseating them just enough so they “pop” loose. You may fine they shoot much better. An old trick from my old days of HiPo. Service people could be seen behing the line with the M81 or M72, or even M852 popping loos the neck “seal” with a lyman tong tool.

beltfed/arnie

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 05 November 2015

joeb ....a couple thoughts on moly lube ...with my 22 rf match rifle, if i accumulated too much in the barrel, i detected a very slight loss of accuracy ...maybe from 1/2 minute to 0.6 minute ... certainly not to 3 moa .

i used my own mix, about 1 part moly to 3 parts ball bearing grease ( andoc c ) ...i found good performance at barely rubbing every third bullet . the advantage was not immediate accuracy, but consistency through not having to scrub the barrel between targets . just a dry rag every 100 shots .

again, not sure this would cause a 223 to go from 1.5 up to 3.0 moa; but also my goop wasnt super moly lyman .

in shooting my bean can loads ... 2 to 4 moa ... i can't see grouping difference with moly , just cleaning convenience .

i refuse to believe all the evidence that shooting cast bullets is an art ...

ken

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billglaze posted this 06 November 2015

Beltfed:    Thanks for the heads-up.  Wilco with “breaking” the seal; also, I've got quite a quantity of M 118 “brown box” Match ammo to try-  Been so busy, I didn't even think of trying the stuff in the Savage, until I read your post to me.  I remember it sure shot good in the M1; only thing I could outshoot the brown box with was handloads with Sierra 168's at 600 yds.......

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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joeb33050 posted this 10 November 2015

I shot today, CCI sr primer, 9.5/IMR4227, NOE 227-80, 225646M, 225415; all unsized, gas checked, LLA, cases sized in Lee Collet die, crimped in same die. 5 groups each, 5 shots per group Group sizes inches, in order shot 227-80 2.4, 2.4, 2.15, 1.0, 2.1 avg 2.01 225646M 1.8, 2.4, 2.0, 1.5, .9 avg 1.72 225415 1.175, 1.625, 2.75, 2.05, 1.75 avg 2.07 Average for 15 groups 1.93 I decap and clean primer pockets after each group, Lee decapper and base, slows me down. I noticed several cases tight or refused lee decapper rod, maybe 5 total. First time for that.

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joeb33050 posted this 10 November 2015

Next target

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joeb33050 posted this 10 November 2015

Last target

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 November 2015

looks like a * significant * tendency to vertical stringing ... i believe that shows a potential to improve ... although there could be several causes for that stringing ....

i had one rifle with pronounced vertical stringing improve immensely after minor firelapping ... still haven't figured that one out .

normally the suspects would be ignition ,,,, barrel whip ... barrel vibration .... bedding ...

and again ... your groups are pretty good for a sporter rifle .

the mystery ... and the challenge ...remains .... why are 95% per cent of cast groups 2.4 moa ? why not 8 moa ? 44 moa ??

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 13 November 2015

FL sized in RCBS dies, M die, same bullets, primers, lube GC, unsized, LLA 9.5/IMR4227 CCI SR Does the FL sizing change the Lee decapper refusal? Yes, no tight or refusal today It seemed that the gun wants a lot of shots after cleaning before it settles down. Shot 11 NOE 227-80 first, then for record. Shot BIG groups, quit after 3 225646M 6 group avg = 1.63 225415 6 group avg = 1.95

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joeb33050 posted this 13 November 2015

225646M

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joeb33050 posted this 13 November 2015

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joeb33050 posted this 17 November 2015

I shot again today, about the same. This is 223 Rem, unsized gas checked bullets, LLA, neck crimped in Lee collet die, cases left oily, loaded bullets wiped with LLA, IMR4227, 100 yards 5 shot 5 or 6 group averages. To date: 

Later groups cases RCBS FL sized. Powder charge and avg. group size.

225415

9.5              2.25

9.5              2.07

9.5              1.95

10                1.44

10        1.95

10.5     2.98

 

225646M

8.5       2.15

9          1.575   

9.5       1.48

9.5       1.72

9.5       1.633

10        1.86

10.5     2.29

 

NOE 227-80

9.5       3.28

9.5       2.10

9.5       Big groups

10        1.983

It looks like the NOE bullet is not so good, other 2 Lyman Bullets OK, 225646M = modified maybe best. 

I need to mark the molds by cavity, cast-sort-weigh, all the tricks to get under 1.5” averages. And sell the NOE mold.

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John Alexander posted this 19 November 2015

Joe, Strange that the NOE 22780 doesn't seem to work for you.  My experience is just the opposite with the NOE bullet being much easier to break 1.5” than anything else I have tried. As I remember you are getting good land marks on the nose and no leading.  Differences in rifles maybe? John

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joeb33050 posted this 19 November 2015

John Alexander wrote: Joe, Strange that the NOE 22780 doesn't seem to work for you.  My experience is just the opposite with the NOE bullet being much easier to break 1.5” than anything else I have tried. As I remember you are getting good land marks on the nose and no leading.  Differences in rifles maybe? JohnA Savage Striker in 22-250 , how could I turn it down. Maybe the NOE bullet will fit in that. I've got other barrels to screw on. The experiments continue. joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 01 December 2015

YESTERDAY, 11/30/15, no crimp of the case mouth, Blue Dot, 6.5 Gr. 5 shot groups 100 yards 5 group average

227-80, 10 shots in 5.6" 225415 average 1.8" 225646M average 2.075"

I think the NOE 227-80 is right on the ragged edge of stability/velocity. Faster might get it to group smaller. Blue Dot is fair. Titegroup is not available in the three gunshops I checked yesterday. It's available on the net, $20.40 per  1 lb, but the hazmat and shipping are croakers.

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John Alexander posted this 01 December 2015

Keep the results coming Joe.  Nice to hear what others are getting for AVERAGE accuracy.

Were the latest results in the Striker.  What is the twist?

John

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joeb33050 posted this 01 December 2015

John Alexander wrote: Keep the results coming Joe.  Nice to hear what others are getting for AVERAGE accuracy.

Were the latest results in the Striker.  What is the twist?

JohnYESTERDAY WAS THE SAVAGE 12 FV, 9” TWIST. STRIKER MAYBE FRIDAY, I'M CASTING NOW.

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joeb33050 posted this 09 December 2015

NOE 227-80 3 groups avg 2.35"

Lyman 225646M 5 group avg 1.38"

Lyman 225415 5 group avg 1.615"

 

3# TiteGroup and 3K Hornady GCs on the way

I stopped crimping case mouths with Lee Collet Die, didn't seem to make any difference.

Lately:

 

Savage 12 FV 223 Rem 100 yards 5 group avg 5 shot groups charges in Grains

 

Gr.       “

 

225415

IMR 4227

9.5       2.25

9.5       2.07

9.5       1.95

10        1.44

10        1.95

10.5     2.98

BLUE DOT

6.5       1.8

7.5       1.615

 

225646M

IMR 4227

8.5       2.15

9          1.575   

9.5       1.48

9.5       1.72

9.5       1.633

10        1.86

2.29

BLUE DOT

6.5       2.075

7.5       1.38

 

NOE 227-80

9.5       3.28

9.5       2.10

9.5       Big groups

10        1.983

BLUE DOT

6.5       10 SHOTS IN 5.6”

7.5       2.35 3 grou

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 December 2015

joeb :: you are making me consider changing my goals with cast ....i have settled for bean cans at 40 yards .... you have me believing with a bit of effort i might attain 100 yards !! my heart is all aflutter !!

thank you .

ken

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