velocity with accuracy

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 December 2014

it is looking as if our near-liquid lead alloy bullets are being distorted in the first inch or so upon ignition.  it is not as clear that running out of lube or stripping/gas cutting, or melting due to barrel friction  after the first 6 inches is unavoidably present.

partial success in out quest to match jb accuracy is probably due to schemes to align and support as much of the bullet as we can before firing. 

and probably by using as hard an alloy as we can find .. maybe the end goal would be a strong metal jacket ( g ) .

also it seems that keeping g forces lower ( thru slower burning rate powders and very long barrels ) results in less bullet deformation for the same muzzle velocity.  honorable mention goes to having a high quality barrel .

the above is an attempt to pause, inspect the past 600 years of shooting lead, and see where we go from here.  that we attain an easy 2 to 3 moa by following 4 or 8 rules i consider amazing !!  harry pope knew these rules 100 years ago but only with the internet have the rules been so available to so many interested in improvements.

as has been dutifully noted , and with precious truth indeed ... that wonderful schemes and midnight inspirations do not make great targets without some investment of time, sweat, ...and yes often money ... still it is useful to have a few hundred possible fantasy improvement scenarios in hand for our subconscious to sort out on our road to beating the curse of cast bullets always being that other child.

so what do we try next ?  accuracy with velocity is near ;;; i can sense it !!

ken  

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 December 2014

bullet hardness :: could we mix bronze pellets ( as in very small pellets used in sintered brass procucts ... available on ebay ) in our alloy ?

yep they would soon float ...but maybe stir and pour a bullet as a colloid. hey, hold the mold base up and let the pellets float to the base and produce a hard base softer point bullet.

and keep the poured mold hot for ten minutes to allow the pellets to slowly rise to the base.

what could go wrong ?

ken

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 December 2014

bullet support before ignition. ::

it would seem that a full cylinder, wadcutter bullet would be ( nearly ) fully supported design, so shouldn't we start there is support is the biggie ? yep, we expect that out there a ways air pressure would begin to win ... so what is the least angle of unsupported nose it takes to ... say ... attain reliability of impact ( accuracy ) at 50 yards ? 100 yards ? 200 yards ? at say 1600 fps.

different yardages are different games due to wind deflection .. but let us say zero wind velocity, only mass of air molecules screwing up our good intentions.

ken

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onondaga posted this 16 December 2014

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=40>Ken Campbell Iowa

How many times have you seen and continue to see people mention they use a beaked caliper in their muzzle to determine bullet diameter or those that finger push a bullet in the muzzle for the same feat? This is the worst kind of ignorance about cast bullets....these shooters believe they are correct and have actually made zero effort to fit bullets to the chamber throats of their firearms.

How many decades now has the Lee book directions for selecting alloy hardness to relate to load pressure been ignored?

There are unhelpable people that desire to be expert shooters with astonishing target results from cast bullets. Most will never change anything but they wholeheartedly expect their results to change. At this point, my best recommendation is to just say hello to them politely at the range and disregard all else about their closed minds and their hopeless existence and efforts to shoot a small group. Many of them just want to argue for the sake of arguing anyway.

Gary

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 December 2014

throat angle ... or how i hate compromises ...

let us say we have a bullet with one inch of groove dia bearing surface.

1) throat angle 0 degrees: we power breech seat and get full support. needs weird tools, impractical for hunting. but maybe least distortion ...

2) angle one side 1/4 degree with cylindrical bullet.. easier to seat but engraved fully only at front groove dia. of bullet ... base diameter barely engraved.

3) 1/4 degree per side and bullet is tapered 1/4 degree over grooves. bullet can easily be seated until it stops against the taper, but is not actually engraved until fired. the good news is that it only has to move 0.0002 until engraving starts ... and 0.004 inches later it is fully engraved, y the bore is sealed by the bullet.

note that if the bullet was hard seated about 0.004 after contact, it would be fully engraved before firing.

so how come we don't all use a 1/4 degree taper throat, a 1/4 degree tapered bullet, and a hard nudge seating after contact ?

is it that easy ?

and from above posts, a tapered wadcutter-45-degree-nosed bullet and a brass-filled alloy.. .. ( g ) .

what could go wrong ?

4) a 1/8 degree per side throat ... would too little taper not engrave enough to avoid gas cutting y slippage ? it would take 2 inches before our bullet is fully engaged. but then the engraving would be gentle if there is any advantage to that.


what could go wrong ?

ken

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 December 2014

crap ! after 50 years of casting, the above is still all i can come up with !!

help me out, foks ...

i gotta go cut some metal. time to do something ( g ) .

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 16 December 2014

onondaga wrote: http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=40>Ken Campbell Iowa

How many times have you seen and continue to see people mention they use a beaked caliper in their muzzle to determine bullet diameter or those that finger push a bullet in the muzzle for the same feat? This is the worst kind of ignorance about cast bullets....these shooters believe they are correct and have actually made zero effort to fit bullets to the chamber throats of their firearms.

How many decades now has the Lee book directions for selecting alloy hardness to relate to load pressure been ignored? It seems to be a theory that's been disproved several times. As expected, since there's no reasonable data supporting it.  There are unhelpable people that desire to be expert shooters with astonishing target results from cast bullets. Most will never change anything but they wholeheartedly expect their results to change. At this point, my best recommendation is to just say hello to them politely at the range and disregard all else about their closed minds and their hopeless existence and efforts to shoot a small group. Many of them just want to argue for the sake of arguing anyway.

Gary

onondaga posted this 16 December 2014

 There is not going to be a renaissance like rejuvenating rebirth with cast bullets coming out on top and shooting better than jacketed bullets by some yet untried cast bullet method.

To do well, just copy what works and do it as well as you can.

RE: Lee

Gary

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Hamish posted this 16 December 2014

onondaga wrote:  There is not going to be a renaissance like rejuvenating rebirth with cast bullets coming out on top and shooting better than jacketed bullets by some yet untried cast bullet method.

To do well, just copy what works and do it as well as you can"

Never let your grasp exceed your reach, never look beyond the next hill? How did we get to this point to know “what works"?  Didn't someone have to try something new?

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onondaga posted this 16 December 2014

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8417>TheAmishGolfballShooter

” Didn't someone have to try something new?

Yes, hundreds of years ago and you can read about it in the library. That is my point.

Gary

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pat i. posted this 16 December 2014

Gary, like Joe I'm sure you don't mind me editing your post a bit to keep things civil during the Christmas holiday.

This isn't directed at anyone personally but I'm really tired of the jabs on this forum. That bologna has basically ruined Cast Boolits and I don't want this one following suit. If anyone has a problem with me being a little heavy handed with the edit button from now on their best recourse is to contact the CBA board of Directors and bitch about me enough that they me remove from this lofty position as moderator. There's no reason to fight about something as insignificant as shooting cast bullets and, unless I get the boot, every time I see it starting I'm going to put an end to it from this point forward. I'll keep the good and relevant parts of a post but the bad's disappearing. I'd like everyone's help in keeping this place mellow by pointing out to me small fires before they turn into an inferno. There's enough of that going on in other places to satisfy anyone's need for drama.

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bjornb posted this 16 December 2014

Pat,your “heavy hand” is most welcome. I left the other forum due to lax moderating; the resident trolls were given free reins and every potentially interesting thread would soon spiral downward. Thanks.

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R. Dupraz posted this 16 December 2014

Thanks Pat.     It's long overdue. Maybe this place  can still be what it once was yet.   

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onondaga posted this 17 December 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5498>pat i.

You do a terrific job and thank you. I shouldn't take this stuff personally and rarely do. Plus, I enjoy spirited debate and will disclaim circular false logic and assertions for what they are. 

Gary

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Maven posted this 17 December 2014

"...or those that finger push a bullet in the muzzle...." Gary, That was no less a person than Robert Sears' recommendation for a quick determination of CB fit.  It has served me well enough, but there are exceptions and additions to Bob's methodology.

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delmarskid1 posted this 17 December 2014

I wish that I could afford a gain twist barrel with progressive depth rifling. My feelings re such that the soft cast bullets jump the threads when they hit the rifling. Deep straight grooves grading into the desired twist with more grip caused by decreasing depth of rifling nearer the muzzle. Neat trick huh?

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 17 December 2014

delmarskid1 ” bullet skidding when entering the rifling “


you would think that a washer or tube cast into the ogive .. where the forwardmost point that first hits the lands ... in factory chambers ... would help that. i had a 375 mold ... nei ...that took tubing ... but i gave up .. just too much hassle y cut tubing never fit well. results didn't fit a probability curve ( g ) .

a gas check on the back seems to help but maybe in a factory chamber the damage is done by the time the gas check arrives at the lands. hmmm . how about a gas check wadcutter shot backwards . gas check on both ends ? my head hurts.

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 17 December 2014

What notions I get from Bjorn and the other guys are these: Breech seating in bolt guns is part. I know it's been and is being done, but... No bore riders is part. Bore riders work for me, and I love 'em. It can be tricky matching alloy hardness for engraving, bumping noses, nose size as cast and OAL length to a particular gun. Veral doesn't like bore riders. Jacketed bullets aren't bore riders. Could bore riders be wrong? High velocity. Like a lot of others I read “Cast Bullets” and tried most of it. I never got paper patching or any high velocity to work. But---ther are now and always have been, on the edge, guys who shot HV with at least reasonable accuracy. So maybe the “new departure” includes these three. We'll see.    

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Larry Gibson posted this 17 December 2014

Breach seating is not necessary for accuracy at higher velocities. Some of us still go with fixed ammunition. BSing obviously does provide some benefits in the way of accuracy (still to be proven conclusively at this level of velocity and pressures)and case capacity.

Bore riders (old and “modern” designs) only hold up to a certain level of velocity and acceleration. Most of them have too much unsupported nose, too deep of lube grooves, a scraper groove and a poor bearing length to bullet length ratio. If you want to push into really higher velocities with cast bullets then bore riders are indeed wrong.

Many have problems with PPing and find it difficult to work at higher velocity also. Higher velocity with regular cast bullets while maintaining a reasonable level of accuracy is obviously possible as some of us are doing just that. The biggest reason it is being done at 2600 - 2800+ fps now is with the understanding of how RPM adversely affects the bullet in flight. By using slower twist barrels and properly designed bullets the adverse affect of RPM is controlled.

With a properly designed cast bullet for high velocity such as the NOE 30 XCB we can still easily attain reasonable accuracy at somewhat higher velocities than normally thought with 10 and 12” twist .30 caliber rifles. I just posted the results of such a test on the NOE forum. With the 10” twist 2300 - 2400 fps and with the 12” twist 2400 - 2500+ fps with reasonable accuracy of 1.5 moa +/- with 10 shot group is relatively easy to obtain. Once at that level then the loads can be tweaked for probable better accuracy.

With a longer (26” plus) barrel of 14” twist 2600 - 2800+ fps with that level of accuracy are also easily obtained. I've a 30” plus barrel with a 16” twist on the way so we shall see what that holds. The concept of longer barrels with slower twists has been around for a long time....Pope was using them. However, the “new departure” is using the longer barrels with slower twists with high velocity cast bullets.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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OU812 posted this 17 December 2014

Would a non tapered design work? All that is required is a throating reamer and sizing full length for a snug (.0001-.0005) fit inside long free bore. Sizing full bearing length would also remove most of mold offset created by two mold halves not aligning. This non tapered style bullet can be scaled up larger or down smaller for various calibers. Use the Greenhill formula to figure length needed.        

tturner53 posted this 17 December 2014

Now you have made me curious. Two things; what's the story on this NOE 30 XCB? Who's idea and why? I'm all for accuracy and velocity, sometimes. Fun is fun. Also, this talk has me wanting to review the extensive work done by 'Molly' re. Cream of Wheat fillers. A slight detour here, I know, but he got good hunting accuracy and velocity with pretty simple loads. I've tried some of his stuff out and the COW does do amazing things. Clean is what comes to mind.

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Larry Gibson posted this 17 December 2014

Hard to say. All it takes is money to find out.......

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 17 December 2014

tturner53 wrote: Now you have made me curious. Two things; what's the story on this NOE 30 XCB? Who's idea and why? I'm all for accuracy and velocity, sometimes. Fun is fun. Also, this talk has me wanting to review the extensive work done by 'Molly' re. Cream of Wheat fillers. A slight detour here, I know, but he got good hunting accuracy and velocity with pretty simple loads. I've tried some of his stuff out and the COW does do amazing things. Clean is what comes to mind.
The 30 XCB bullet was a joint design by myself, goodsteel, runfiverun and a couple others (btroj & geargnasher?) along with Al “Swede” Nelson at NOE.  The 30 XCB bullet was designed for high velocity in the 2800 - 2900+ fps range using the 30 XCB cartridge (30x57 with a tight neck) in longer barrels with slower twists.  However, it has proven exceptional in the 30-6 and .308W as well.  The basic design is to maximize the bearing surface, have minimal but sufficient sized multiple lube grooves, the beginning of the ogive should match the angle of the leade and taper to the point giving a decent BC with no bore riding section.  Fitting the 30 XCB cartridge neck (30-06 length) with the GC at the base and the beginning of the ogive against the leade the bullet weighs in, fully dressed, at 165 gr +/-.   I suggest you check out my thread on the XCB bullet in 10 and 12” twist rifles on the NOE forum.  You'll see very useable accuracy was easily obtained to 2400 fps in the 10” twist and at 2500+ fps in the 12” twist .308Ws.  You'll also see there was additional promise of further increases with the powders used.   LMG 

Concealment is not cover.........

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goodsteel posted this 17 December 2014

I was responsible for the basic design of the XCB bullet and how it fits the throat.

What lead up to this was a series of tests I did in my shop where I fired all the 30 caliber cast bullets I had available to me into soft, sandy soil I dug from the back yard. I was using light charges of bullseye to try to identify the weak points in various bullet designs so that I could design around them. What I observed was that the bullets actually twist as they are launched (this was especially evident with the 311466) and are held in this contorted state till they exit the barrel. To combat this, I kept the bullets as short as I could, so that it has less rear end for the nose to convince to twist. Additionally, I designed the initial engagement nose of the bullet to exactly match the throat of the rifle it was being designed for (the 30XCB ) . I focused on nothing else but these two objectives. In order to insure that everything was perfect, I turned this portion of the bullet on the lathe and made steel mock-ups which were coated with dykem and tested for fit in a throat that was cut in a section of barrel with the reamer I use to chamber the rifles. I kept at it till I had an absolutely perfect fit (it bears mentioning that the throat that is ground into the reamer, and the throat that reamer actually cuts are two different things, and I observed the latter rather than just going by the chamber drawings). Once I was sure that the fit was perfect, I had designed a wad-cutter with a GC shank, no lube grooves, and no nose. At the same time that this point was reached, I had spoken to a friend of mine who runs aerospace simulation equipment, and asked him to take a typical 30 caliber cast lead bullet and run it through his simulation software to possibly identify problems or weaknesses so that I might avoid them. I also consulted with LMG and asked his opinion on what I had done so far, and any suggestions he might have. The main thing that came from that conversation was his assertion that very small lube grooves, bolstered on both sides with decent driving bands, would be a boon to HV shooting. That same week, my friend got back with me about the simulation he had conducted, and informed me that the bullet would survive enormous RPMs as long as I kept radial stress risers to a minimum, and had no flat edges radiating from the center line (this means shallow lube grooves with angled transitions to driving bands, and keep the darn meplat as small as I possibly could).

I contacted Al at NOE Bullet Molds and he agreed to help design a nose that would give a very good BC without compromising the perfect fit I had designed into the bullet, which he pulled off very well.

At this point, I was very concerned that the tiny little lube grooves would not be capable of carrying enough lube to properly carry the bullet to the crown every time. This bothered me because at this point there was starting to be the real concern of this concept wasting not only my time, money, and effort but that of the people helping me as well! I decided to hedge my bet and asked Tom at Accurate Molds to make me a mold, which he did in very short order (he just rocks) he imported my autocad file and by George he cut it so the bullets drop EXACTLY as designed. Tom is unable to cut a meplat smaller than .180, so the design I sent him had just a simple TC nose shape, that was easy to draw, proven effective on game, rendered the desired weight, and satisfied Tom's .180 meplat requirement.

While Al was getting the cherry cut to his satisfaction at NOE, we began testing the Accurate version, and found that my fears about lube capacity were groundless. The bullet was also insanely accurate as long as it was not hot rodded too much.

I can't even begin to describe the feeling of expectation with which I waited for Al to work his magic on the improved XCB bullet design.

When it finally arrived, and we began shooting it, it didn't take long to realize that all the effort that I had invested in it (to say nothing of the effort of the other players mentioned above) was well placed. The bullet shoots better than any design I have ever used. We effectively produced a “perfect storm” in the XCB bullet, because it has enough of the right design concepts put in the right places.

In the past few months, myself, Bjornb, LMG, and sgt.mike have been throwing everything we have at testing this design and pushing the speed envelope, and the XCB project is exceeding my wildest dreams. BjornB has managed to use the system I created for him to push the XCB concept to 2850FPS with shocking accuracy considering the speeds he is attaining. LMG is doing the same thing with the XCB bullet in rifles chambered in 308. sgt.mike is doing phenomenal things with it in 30-06 sporter/mil-spec rifles. I'm keeping the support going for these gentlemen, with gunsmithing, custom reloading equipment/maintenance, and whatever I can contribute to keep these gents shooting. I'm the pit crew if you will and it is and has been, the most invigorating cast bullet project I have ever done.

We have laid the groundwork and control data has been produced and recorded. 2015 could prove to be very interesting indeed.

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

As far as lube grooves go when I had Veral Smith cut my moulds for the 30x47 I had him cut 1 groove .070 wide plus a .090 shank. When the weathers a little on the cool side I can shoot with just the small space over the shank lubed with LBT Blue at over 2600 fps with no leading at all. All I've ever used for casting is WW with a pinch of tin either straight, water quenched, or HTed. For this thing they're oven treated to about 35 BNH. My 1.385 long 250 gr. 30 cal bullet Dave Mos cut the mould for and my 1.250 gr. 170 gr. 6.5 mould that I cut also only wear one lube groove. I obviously think that's enough with good lube and can't hurt with the BC. How does changing alloys effect the fit of the bullet? I use a die made with the same throating reamer I used on the barrel so there's no issue but when using an as cast bullet I'd think different alloys would definitely change the fit. Here's the .925 long 160 gr bullet. I also have one that's .970 long and weighs about 170 grs. or so. They both shoot about the same with 40 grs of VV 135.

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

I'm not a target saver so didn't save the target from the first time out but for some reason did save the backer. The lower left was adjusting the scope and then ten five shot groups at 100 yds. I do remember the targets looking better than what the backer shows. 

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

On the other end of the spectrum here's a 1.425 long 260 gr bullet Dave Mos cut for me I tried out in a 30 PPC case. I settled on the single groove 1.385 long 250 gr bullet in the PPC case and shot a 200 yd. national record with it that lasted about a month. Small 10 shot group if I remember right. 

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

Ready to load.

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

What I like to shoot now.

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bjornb posted this 18 December 2014

pat i. wrote: On the other end of the spectrum here's a 1.425 long 260 gr bullet Dave Mos cut for me I tried out in a 30 PPC case. I settled on the single groove 1.385 long 250 gr bullet in the PPC case and shot a 200 yd. national record with it that lasted about a month. Small 10 shot group if I remember right.  Pat, what twist was the rifle you shot this monster bullet in? Awesome shooting. Guess I have to try some of that small group stuff:fire

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

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goodsteel posted this 18 December 2014

I've been chasing the HV cast bullet thing for about three years now and in that time, many have claimed to shoot super fast with fast twist barrels, but this remnant of a target backer is the first thing even close to a real target that I have seen. Too bad nobody takes pictures of their targets anymore. On that note, of you don't mind me asking, what promted you take a picture of the cardbaord backer and not the target? Pictures of these High RPM groups are beginning to seem like pictures of bigfoot. LOL!  Regardless, that sure looks like some dam fine shooting Pat. Did you ever compete with that rifle? Bet you could do some good work at 300 with a rifle shooting like that. 

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

Pictures of the original targets were posted here at one time in a thread I started about barrel cooling I think but is gone now. The backer's been laying under my bed since I shot it so I just took the picture again for my current post. I always figured I could use a backer again someday but once shot the targets are used up. And yes I did compete with the gun. And to clarify something that wasn't a fast twist barrel I used for the short bullet it was a 17. The 10 twist was used for the heavy bullet I was competeing with a couple years before that.

Before a national match in N. Carolina I watched George Morrison shoot some pretty nice groups at 300 yds with a high velocity project he was shooting at the time and H.L. Yarbourough won the urestricted class at a nationals shooting a light bullet fast in an 18 twist.

And I think it's too bad people don't take and post pictures of the targets they shot before and after the one they show off on the internet. I think that'd be a lot more interesting.

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bjornb posted this 18 December 2014

pat i. wrote: And I think it's too bad people don't take and post pictures of the targets they shot before and after the one they show off on the internet. I think that'd be a lot more interesting. Very true Pat. When I post a series of targets online, they go up warts and all. The only time I don't post a target is where an experimental load went haywire from shot one, but then I'll write just that. I don't think there's any value in a picture of a one foot shotgun pattern, but I believe in the value of informing about a load that just missed completely in the rifle at hand. One big and contentious issue lately has been a small group of detractors who won't show their own HV work, but who will endlessly claim their “method” of HV shooting as being superior to what we are doing, without ever showing conclusive evidence that it is even possible. If it is in fact possible, it would be just awesome to have it thoroughly explained and pictures posted. It involves shooting 10-twist rifles, with short barrels, upward of 2600 fps with sub-moa accuracy. No names are needed. If this kind of shooting was as simple to achieve as is being claimed, I for one would love to have it explained and be able to do it myself. I have tried, on other forums, to extend olive branches and get a dialogue going, but there seems to be so much bad blood between certain shooters that I have not been very successful. So having said that, I'm loaded up for Sunday with 3 different ball powders: Hodgdon LeveRevolution, Winchester 760 and Hodgdon Superformance. Using Goodsteel's breech seater I'll be shooting the NOE 165 XCB bullet in increasing loads until things fall apart. The LvR powder should bring me well above 3000 fps based on the 2950 I already got from that powder. Fingers crossed. 

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Larry Gibson posted this 18 December 2014

pat I

What's the barrel length and velocity of those loads with those bullets?

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

Both barrels are 22 inches which I had to use to make weight in the HVY class using HVY Varmint taper barrels for CBA matches. As far as velocity the light bullet's 2600 and the heavy one was 1750. The BC of the heavy bullet is .394 tested with two chronographs. The BC of the lighter bullet was guestimated at .275. When I ran the numbers through an Art Pesja ballistics program at their relative velocities the drift was so close it could basically be called a match

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frnkeore posted this 18 December 2014

The best way to gain credibility on this forum is to shoot in CBA matches (or other organized matches) and then no one will dispute your results.

While this is very interesting and I know that bjorb's experiments are truthful, you are in a forum of competive shooters and we all gage results on match results.

There are CBA clubs all over the USA and you don't have to become a member to shoot in a match, at least not to start.

Keep posting and after you get what you think is your best combination, go to a match and shoot it. I believe that you'll see that you'll have the admiration of all here.

Frank

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Larry Gibson posted this 18 December 2014

pat I

Both barrels are 10” twist?   That 160 gr bullet is very much like the LBT 30-160-SP with the nose meplat on yours being different.  A very good design for high velocity with minimal lube grooves, large bearing surface and no bore riding nose.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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bjornb posted this 18 December 2014

frnkeore wrote: The best way to gain credibility on this forum is to shoot in CBA matches (or other organized matches) and then no one will dispute your results.

While this is very interesting and I know that bjorb's experiments are truthful, you are in a forum of competive shooters and we all gage results on match results.

There are CBA clubs all over the USA and you don't have to become a member to shoot in a match, at least not to start.

Keep posting and after you get what you think is your best combination, go to a match and shoot it. I believe that you'll see that you'll have the admiration of all here.

FrankFrank, no doubt true what you say. I'm looking at matches in North Carolina, that's a 10 hour drive and the closest match area I could find. I definitely would like to shoot my rifle in a CBA match. However the shooting I'm posting about here is kind of a “fringe” discipline, and I post mostly for fun and to talk about stuff that's not everyday fare. As for the admiration of other shooters it's certainly nice but it's not why I enjoy doing this. 

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

No Larry. The barrel for the short bullet is a 17 twist and the barrel for the heavy bullet is a 10 twist.

The bullet looks a lot like a LBT 160 gr spitzer because it is an LBT 160 gr spritzer, although I didn't know what the weight would be when I ordered it since I'm more interested in length than weight. It's the same design I've used for Lbt bullets no matter what twist or length bullet I was using. The ogive on this one has a different radius than the standard LBT spritzer because I wanted as much bearing length as possible for the short bullet. .5 if I remember right. The bullet gets tapered in a die to match the throat of the rifle cut with the same throating reamer. Get a classic Morse Taper fit that way. I taper the bullet so there's about a .100 long driving band in front of the lube groove and then cut the throat so the bullet's seated about to the bottom of the first band after chambering. I seat the bullet gas check deep into the case by hand and let the throat push the bullet back to final seating depth. It stays in when seated by hand so passes the CBA “Shake Test” if that rule even exists anymore, or ever did.

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

bjornb wrote: Frank, no doubt true what you say. I'm looking at matches in North Carolina, that's a 10 hour drive and the closest match area I could find. I definitely would like to shoot my rifle in a CBA match. However the shooting I'm posting about here is kind of a “fringe” discipline, and I post mostly for fun and to talk about stuff that's not everyday fare. As for the admiration of other shooters it's certainly nice but it's not why I enjoy doing this. 

Instead of driving 10 hours to a match you should look into starting your own. Joe Brennan sounds like he's reasonably close to you and there must be other shooters in Florida that might like to participate. It's pretty easy to shoot a score match and you could shoot groups also although I don't think you can set national records without moving backers. CBA match shooting's a lot of fun and I used to travel all over the country doing it. Met a lot of nice people and had a lot of laughs. I don't do it anymore but have a lot of good memories. And who knows what the future will hold since I still have all my stuff.

 

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frnkeore posted this 18 December 2014

There is also a group of ASSRA shooter in FL that might be able to be talked into shooting the PB class.

I can get you intouch with them, if you like.

Frank

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bjornb posted this 18 December 2014

We are a small group of cast bullet shooter at my range who would definitely like to shoot matches at our own (County) range. We all shoot both gas checked and PB. Something to look into down the road.

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2014

That'd be great if you did start hosting matches and you'd have a lot of fun.

Well enough of my blathering about WHAT I DID cuz that's ancient history. Let's get back to WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 December 2014

LevREV powder, eh ? in my dozen or so shooting forums i scan i see that nobody is getting good accuracy from that powder. that seems very strange; please wave your hands over your LevREV loads before firing, and report extremely good results, so that i can sleep at night.

ken

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 December 2014

youse guys in florida should consider starting a ' winternationals ” shoot ... you would be surprised how many of us frozen yankees would use a shoot to visit your paradise about the middle of february.

in my other wasted life as a toy car racer we used to flee to fla. for a week of fun in the sun ...orlando ... ft. myers ... when we came back, heck, only another month of ice to go !!

ken

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Larry Gibson posted this 18 December 2014

pat I

I just knew that bullet looked awfully familiar!

Seems we have been going down pretty much the same road since last we discussed (albeit interrupted a lot) those concepts over on the CB forum. Not hard to see why those 10 shot groups at 2600 fps were like that on the backer. 

My goal is to see how fast I can push the ternary alloyed cast bullet and maintain reasonable accuracy, especially at extended ranges 300 yards to possibly 600 yards. Once I've reached that objective I then planned to tweak the loads and alloy with the 30 XCB bullet for even better accuracy and will drop the velocity if necessary. Such is the plan. Problem is the pundits demand everything that is their idea of what should be done at once ignoring what my goals are and interjecting their own along with a lot of variable tangents they think I should go off on. I played that game before on the CB forum and won't play it again.

I also plan to tone down the loads in my M70 Target with 12” twist to see the degree of accuracy the XCB is capable of. That's the closest I have to a benchrest rifle in .30 caliber. Probably will switch powders and try the more traditional ones with velocities in the 1800 to 2300 fps range. We do like accuracy for the sake of accuracy but this high velocity with accuracy is proving interesting to see where and how far it takes us. If others find no interest that is certainly their prerogative.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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bjornb posted this 18 December 2014

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: youse guys in florida should consider starting a ' winternationals ” shoot ... you would be surprised how many of us frozen yankees would use a shoot to visit your paradise about the middle of february.

in my other wasted life as a toy car racer we used to flee to fla. for a week of fun in the sun ...orlando ... ft. myers ... when we came back, heck, only another month of ice to go !!

ken Ken,that sounds like a great idea - but I think I should at least go to - and shoot at - a few CBA matches before trying to host one! When the next shooting season gets published in the Fouling Shot I'll sign up for some of the matches. I fly for free so it's not too hard to arrange.

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frnkeore posted this 18 December 2014

"I fly for free so it's not too hard to arrange."

Wish I could do that. From what I've heard, you'd best get a solid SS gun case with a guaranteed locking mechanism.

Frank

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OU812 posted this 18 December 2014

Ken wrote:"fit like a morse taper ... hmmm . always brings to mind a bullet in throat, totally locked in a perfect tapered position, ready for a perfect launch ... but i then ( years pass ) wondered just how much different throat angles support how much of the bullet. so i inculcated :: for a groove depth of 0.004 ( one side ) here are the lengths engraved: 1/8 degree per side: 1.83 inches 1/4>>>>o.92 1/2>>>>o.46 3/4>>>>o.31 1>>>>>>o.23 2>>>>>>o.11 3>>>>>>o.08 *********** ok, let's see ... i got a 1 inch long bullet ... 0.1 in the case ...0.1 freebore groove diameter ... 0.2 nose cone unsupported ... leaves me with 0.6 bullet to support in tapered chamber ... i need no more than 0.5 degree one side taper. aaarrgh ... anybody wanna buy my perfectly good 3 degree throater ...0.313 to 0.297 ptg reamer ? i think i need to reorder ..wonder if a 1/8 degree would help breech seat ? no wonder we need long bore rider designs ... our 3 degree factory tapers combined with a 0.004 oversize freebore ...equals perpetual 3 moa groups. just what i shoot !! oh wait ... Ardito told us that 20 years ago ... ken"So a bullet with “full bearing length support” (no bore riding) starting @.308 diameter base of nose section would require more free bore length than taper would allow. A bullet with .308 nose diameter and .310 band diameter would have a 1 degree included tapered length of just .230” or about 1/4 the length of a 1 inch long cast bullet. Enlarge bands to .312 diameter and 1 degree included taper length increases to .460” almost or 1/2 length of 1” cast bullet.Or you can do this: No taper cast into bullet.

OU812 posted this 18 December 2014

The 30XCD relies on tight neck clearance (turning necks) and short .090 freebore to help guide the bullet. I believe 75-80 percent of CAST bullet should be in freebore and throat when chambered and jammed into rifling (throat angle?)   If you cut the longer freebore diameter on the tight side of .3084 it would also shoot jacketed pretty good also.   I will soon sacrifice a barrel to try this using  my throat reamer (.310 diameter with 1.5 included taper). The sharp ridge or entrance where freebore starts should be polished round. 

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OU812 posted this 18 December 2014

Here is my idea of what a 200 yard .224 CAST bullet should look like. Greenhill formula says a length of .750 should work good with 1-9 twist....666 length for 1-12 twist. Bullet has a very long bearing surface and should be sized full length for snug, slip fit into deeper  leade/throat. A custom throater is required to cut throat deeper.

goodsteel posted this 19 December 2014

OU812 wrote: The 30XCD relies on tight neck clearance (turning necks) and short .090 freebore to help guide the bullet. I believe 75-80 percent of CAST bullet should be in freebore and throat when chambered and jammed into rifling (throat angle?)   If you cut the longer freebore diameter on the tight side of .3084 it would also shoot jacketed pretty good also.   I will soon sacrifice a barrel to try this using  my throat reamer (.310 diameter with 1.5 included taper). The sharp ridge or entrance where freebore starts should be polished round. 

What's the 30XCD?

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frnkeore posted this 19 December 2014

goodsteel wrote: OU812 wrote: The 30XCD relies on tight neck clearance (turning necks) and short .090 freebore to help guide the bullet. I believe 75-80 percent of CAST bullet should be in freebore and throat when chambered and jammed into rifling (throat angle?)   If you cut the longer freebore diameter on the tight side of .3084 it would also shoot jacketed pretty good also.   I will soon sacrifice a barrel to try this using  my throat reamer (.310 diameter with 1.5 included taper). The sharp ridge or entrance where freebore starts should be polished round. 

What's the 30XCD? Next generation? Frank

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bjornb posted this 19 December 2014

You knew the copycats were just waiting to come out of the woodwork :rpdfire::rpdfire:

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 December 2014

if you cut the freebore to 0.3085 and then run a 0.310 throater in, you will have a 0.310 freebore.

accuracy costs money, how accurate do you want to go ...heh heh.

as i remember from a little book i bot about 1985, mr. LBT recommended a long groove sized freebore ; these good results lately seem to make sure that the front of the bullet length freebore gently blends into the matching taper of the ogive-forward bullet material. or if a factory chamber, make the bullet ogive-forward match the existing land taper. aaarrgh .

i think i should have married dave kiff's sister ... or at my age maybe his mother ...

ken

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pat i. posted this 19 December 2014

bjornb wrote: You knew the copycats were just waiting to come out of the woodwork :rpdfire::rpdfire: I guess there's someone somewhere that could be saying the same thing about anything we do that we think is new and improved.

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pat i. posted this 19 December 2014

goodsteel wrote: OU812 wrote: The 30XCD relies on tight neck clearance (turning necks) and short .090 freebore to help guide the bullet. I believe 75-80 percent of CAST bullet should be in freebore and throat when chambered and jammed into rifling (throat angle?)   If you cut the longer freebore diameter on the tight side of .3084 it would also shoot jacketed pretty good also.   I will soon sacrifice a barrel to try this using  my throat reamer (.310 diameter with 1.5 included taper). The sharp ridge or entrance where freebore starts should be polished round. 

What's the 30XCD?

A typo as I'm sure you and everyone else knew.

Now lets get back to our regularly scheduled programming. 

 

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goodsteel posted this 19 December 2014

pat i. wrote: goodsteel wrote: OU812 wrote: The 30XCD relies on tight neck clearance (turning necks) and short .090 freebore to help guide the bullet. I believe 75-80 percent of CAST bullet should be in freebore and throat when chambered and jammed into rifling (throat angle?)   If you cut the longer freebore diameter on the tight side of .3084 it would also shoot jacketed pretty good also.   I will soon sacrifice a barrel to try this using  my throat reamer (.310 diameter with 1.5 included taper). The sharp ridge or entrance where freebore starts should be polished round. 

What's the 30XCD?

A typo as I'm sure you and everyone else knew.

Now lets get back to our regularly scheduled programming. 

  Reason why I ask, is if it were a typo, this gentleman is mistaken about the nature and internal characteristics of the 30XCB chamber. It utilizes a tight neck, that's very true, but it has no sort of .090 freebore. I never made one such as described. However, if OU812 is referring to a different cartridge than the 30XCB, I offer my apologies. Thanks. 

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joeb33050 posted this 19 December 2014

I'm having trouble figuring out who's who, who's shooting HV 30 cxb, who's breech seating and where to see a dwg of the chamber.  

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goodsteel posted this 19 December 2014

joeb33050 wrote: I'm having trouble figuring out who's who, who's shooting HV 30 cxb, who's breech seating and where to see a dwg of the chamber.   Sir, My name is Tim Malcolm. I own and operate Malcolm Ballistic Tool out of central Arkansas, and I provide custom rifles, nation wide, with an emphasis on cast bullet rifles. The 30XCB is a cartridge design that was discussed amongst myself, Larry Gibson (AKA LMG), Ian Harris (AKA geargnasher), Brad Trojanoski (AKA Btroj), and Lamar (AKA run5run). The drawings were generated here at MBT and submitted to PTG for creation. Since receiving the reamer, the people who have these custom rifles are the above mentioned gentlemen, Bjornb, and myself. For the time being, no one but these gentlemen have access to an MBT rifle with 30XCB stamped on the side.  However, the XCB project is an all-encompassing one, that covers every area of our shooting, and one of the things that has come from it is two distinct bullet designs, one made by Accurate for the purpose of hunting, and one made by NOE which is the target bullet, and I believe many many people now own these molds as the bullet has proven to be extremely effective in many 30 caliber platforms.  The breach seater is my own design which I created to prove a specific point with a specific cartridge and a specific bullet. It is experimental only and is being passed around amongst our little “research team". It is in BjornB's possession right now, and he is testing it in HV cast bullet scenarios. When he is finished, it will be forwarded to Larry Gibson (LMG) for pressure trace analysis. 

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joeb33050 posted this 19 December 2014

I'm trying to get the 30 XCB story in one paper to understand it. Here it is so far:

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joeb33050 posted this 19 December 2014

”¦ As we also know we need to cast as close as a perfectly balanced cast bullet and launch it w/o inducing imbalance.  This NOE 30 XCB bullet design is proving up the task of withstanding the acceleration of such loads.  Breach seating (obviously kudo's to goodsteel for his expertise in making the BS tool!) is definitely showing us the induced imbalances do happen to the bullet during transition from the case through the throat into the bore.  Progress is definitely being made and demonstrated! (My emphasis, joe b.)

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Paul Pollard posted this 19 December 2014

joeb33050 wrote: I'm trying to get the 30 CBX story in one paper to understand it. Here it is so far:

It might be less confusing if the cartridge letters were in the proper order.

30XCB.  Not 30CBX, Not 30NBC or 30CBS.

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goodsteel posted this 19 December 2014

The basic concept came from many shooters over on CB forum repeatedly stating that “Fit is King” but when looking at the bullet designs, the rifles that used them, and the reloading equipment, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that in application, Fit is actually deuce for most of us. It was theorized (add nausium) that if all these things were corrected, then it would be possible to push further than the average shooter has been able to.

I simply set out to find out if that was true, and to what extent. Therefore, when I encounter a problem, or a shortcoming, I simply create a way around it since I have all the tools to do so, as well as an advanced understanding of practical precision and how to implement it.

Precision starts with the barrel and how it is reamed, so I started right there and designed methods of reaming truly straight and concentric chambers and throats, and more importantly, ways to measure these things and prove they are truly what I say they are. From there, I radiated outward to the action, and devised a way to bluprint the action while it was on the barrel, and again, provide real indicator measurments of just how well it does that. Many claim the bluprinted action is parrelell and concentric to the centerline of your bore. I can tell you how close it is in tenthousandths of an inch.

Next, I moved onto designing a cartridge that would have all the benefits of the very best cast bullet cartridges in history, none of their shortcomings, and enough case capacity to reach 3000FPS with medium burn powders.

I tried to get a team of shooters together to prove the XCB (eXtreme Cast Bullet)concept up to this point. I built them rifles and reloading equipment, and anything else they might need in order to make this happen. Some were unwilling to prove the concepts as agreed apon (the castboolits affliction) but fortunately new shooters stepped up to the plate to lend a hand, so the project didn't die in it's tracks, and testing continued with new life.

At this point, the bullet that was leading the pack was the venerable 311466, but even it was failing much earlier than I thought it should have, and I recognized serious design flaws in that bullet when applied to HV cast shooting. Once again, if FIT is truly KING, we were not walking the line very well, so I set about to point my energy at a new bullet design, thus the NOE XCB bullet was born (as referenced above).

At this point, I felt that the XCB project had outgrown the forum it was started on, as we could not seem to make it very far without getting inundated with comments by people who (for whatever reason) will not back up their theories with the quality documentation that I demand for this project (can you blame me? I have gone to tremendous personal expense, and I'm not going to reach my goals only to have somebody call BS on all my hard work because I or the participants were unwilling to back our claims) so we accepted an invitation from Al Nelson to continue documenting the XCB project on his website (he helped design the bullet afterall).

At this point, we were still doing amazing things with the XCB project, but it was still bothering me about the launch of the bullet and that unseen damage that happens to the bullet during that event. I know the bullet is being imbalanced as it engraves, because paper patch bullets seem to shrug off the engraving event and can be pushed to 3000FPS with accuracy. Thus I knew the bullet was not inherently imbalanced as it drops from the mold and something must be happening at launch. Another thing that was bothering me was that we could actually see this engraving event happening in LMG's pressure traces. There was always a little pressure spike just before the pressure swept upward as the powder gave it's energy to the projectile. I still couldn't get past my sandbox tests which showed the bullets getting twisted as they engraved from the inertia of that event. I decided that I wanted to eliminate that little pressure spike, and take the engraving event out of the equation altogether just as H.M. Pope had done by pushing a bullet from the muzzle of the gun and loading a charged case behind it.
I realized the pressure needed to fully engrave a 30BHN bullet was going to be a tall order, but fully expected it to work, so I created the breach seater so that it would push the whole bullet into the rifling all the way to the GC. In order for this to work at all like I had hoped, the bullet would have to be fully supported through this entire operation, so I made the hole that it is passed through exactly .0003 larger in diameter than the bullet itself. Any tighter than that, and the bullet would be sized down or damaged (possibly by hydraulic action of the lube in the grooves).
Once again, it seems that FIT really is KING, but I actually realized it in my breach seater. We aren't just pushing a bullet in the barrel of the rifle. We are pushing it in STRAIGHT and I guarantee that to .00015 inches.

So that brings us to the present time. We are each moving forward with our tests and contributions. BjornB is currently ragging out that breach seater as thouroughly as possible,

LMG is conducting pressure trace experiments on the XCB bullet with a focus on lube.

sgt.Mike is testing the XCB bullet on several 30-06 rifles, following the load procedure that BjornB has outlined as beeing successful, but he's seeing how well these procedures work in standard rifles of fast twist.

I have 4 Brux barrels coming in in various twist rates that I will build into more target rifles to help bolster BjornB's progress on all sides, and I am building an XCB rifle for LMG with several modifications, and trying to keep all the cat's herded in the right direction.

That's the best I can do to explain who what when where why and to what extent. Hope it helps.

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frnkeore posted this 19 December 2014

goodsteel wrote: joeb33050 wrote: I'm having trouble figuring out who's who, who's shooting HV 30 cxb, who's breech seating and where to see a dwg of the chamber.   Sir, My name is Tim Malcolm. I own and operate Malcolm Ballistic Tool out of central Arkansas, and I provide custom rifles, nation wide, with an emphasis on cast bullet rifles. The 30XCB is a cartridge design that was discussed amongst myself, Larry Gibson (AKA LMG), Ian Harris (AKA geargnasher), Brad Trojanoski (AKA Btroj), and Lamar (AKA run5run). The drawings were generated here at MBT and submitted to PTG for creation. Since receiving the reamer, the people who have these custom rifles are the above mentioned gentlemen, Bjornb, and myself. For the time being, no one but these gentlemen have access to an MBT rifle with 30XCB stamped on the side.  However, the XCB project is an all-encompassing one, that covers every area of our shooting, and one of the things that has come from it is two distinct bullet designs, one made by Accurate for the purpose of hunting, and one made by NOE which is the target bullet, and I believe many many people now own these molds as the bullet has proven to be extremely effective in many 30 caliber platforms.  The breach seater is my own design which I created to prove a specific point with a specific cartridge and a specific bullet. It is experimental only and is being passed around amongst our little “research team". It is in BjornB's possession right now, and he is testing it in HV cast bullet scenarios. When he is finished, it will be forwarded to Larry Gibson (LMG) for pressure trace analysis. 

Did you use the ELCO method of anchoring the BSer? Frank

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goodsteel posted this 19 December 2014

frnkeore wrote: goodsteel wrote: joeb33050 wrote: I'm having trouble figuring out who's who, who's shooting HV 30 cxb, who's breech seating and where to see a dwg of the chamber.   Sir, My name is Tim Malcolm. I own and operate Malcolm Ballistic Tool out of central Arkansas, and I provide custom rifles, nation wide, with an emphasis on cast bullet rifles. The 30XCB is a cartridge design that was discussed amongst myself, Larry Gibson (AKA LMG), Ian Harris (AKA geargnasher), Brad Trojanoski (AKA Btroj), and Lamar (AKA run5run). The drawings were generated here at MBT and submitted to PTG for creation. Since receiving the reamer, the people who have these custom rifles are the above mentioned gentlemen, Bjornb, and myself. For the time being, no one but these gentlemen have access to an MBT rifle with 30XCB stamped on the side.  However, the XCB project is an all-encompassing one, that covers every area of our shooting, and one of the things that has come from it is two distinct bullet designs, one made by Accurate for the purpose of hunting, and one made by NOE which is the target bullet, and I believe many many people now own these molds as the bullet has proven to be extremely effective in many 30 caliber platforms.  The breach seater is my own design which I created to prove a specific point with a specific cartridge and a specific bullet. It is experimental only and is being passed around amongst our little “research team". It is in BjornB's possession right now, and he is testing it in HV cast bullet scenarios. When he is finished, it will be forwarded to Larry Gibson (LMG) for pressure trace analysis. 

Did you use the ELCO method of anchoring the BSer? Frank Actually, if I'm going to anchor a BSer I prefer to use #4 buckshot. LOL!  I don't know what ELCO is. What I did was utilize the bolt stop protrusion on the Mauser rifle. I simply cut a precision square hole that slipped tightly over the bolt stop protrusion and kept it in place with a 4-40 screw just as the bolt stop was designed to function. It really worked nicely because the bolt is removed from the action prior to each shot.  

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frnkeore posted this 19 December 2014

ELCO is the name of my company and I suggested that the bolt stop be used, based on attachment points that I've used in the past.

You didn't know that?

Frank

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goodsteel posted this 19 December 2014

frnkeore wrote: ELCO is the name of my company and I suggested that the bolt stop be used, based on attachment points that I've used in the past.

You didn't know that?

FrankNope, never heard of it. No offense.  Bjornb told me one of you guys suggested it, and I thought it was a solid and logical anchor point. I mean where else are you going to anchor without modifying the action?Great tip Frank. Thanks!

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OU812 posted this 19 December 2014

I found a drawing of the 30XCD...I mean 30XCB. Sorry I got the name and free bore length wrong.

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joeb33050 posted this 19 December 2014

Paul Pollard wrote: joeb33050 wrote: I'm trying to get the 30 CBX story in one paper to understand it. Here it is so far:

It might be less confusing if the cartridge letters were in the proper order.

30XCB.  Not 30CBX, Not 30NBC or 30CBS.I've corrected this everywhere I found the error that you so kindly reported. Merry Christmas.joe b.

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bjornb posted this 19 December 2014

joeb33050 wrote: Paul Pollard wrote: joeb33050 wrote: I'm trying to get the 30 CBX story in one paper to understand it. Here it is so far:

It might be less confusing if the cartridge letters were in the proper order.

30XCB.  Not 30CBX, Not 30NBC or 30CBS.I've corrected this everywhere I found the error that you so kindly reported. Are you related to Frank? Merry Christmas.joe b. Joe,Pat will slap your hand again:D

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joeb33050 posted this 19 December 2014

OU812 wrote: I found a drawing of the 30XCD...I mean 30XCB. Sorry I got the name and free bore length wrong.I CAN'T QUITE SEE IT. Is there a clearer copy?Thanks;joe b., poor speller and blindo

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OU812 posted this 19 December 2014

The 30XCB bullets shoots very well in my factory Remington. Taper bumping should improve grouping consistency .

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OU812 posted this 19 December 2014

Here is one more

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bjornb posted this 19 December 2014

I noticed that all your MVs are rounded off to the nearest 100 fps. Are they chronographed or estimated?

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OU812 posted this 19 December 2014

bjornb wrote: I noticed that all your MVs are rounded off to the nearest 100 fps. Are they chronographed or estimated? The one that reads 2300 was estimated the other two are chronied, but rounded. I have since learned how to hold and shoot the rifle better (forward load the bipod). All bullets were  cast using linotype, hand dipped in thinned Alox and sized .3114. There are better lubes.

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 December 2014

Here's the 30 XCB out of my M70 with 12” twist at 2510 fps.  First 5 shots went into .8” with 10 shots into 1.5".  Was a SWAG guess on the load.   LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 December 2014

Here is the 30 XCB at 2704 fps out of my 14” twist Palma rifle.  First 5 of those went into just under 1” near as I could tell.  All of my loads are with case seated bullets not BS'd.   LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

goodsteel posted this 19 December 2014

LMG wrote: Here's the 30 XCB out of my M70 with 12” twist at 2510 fps.  First 5 shots went into .8” with 10 shots into 1.5".  Was a SWAG guess on the load.   LMG

You fellers see the little blip in the pressure trace? That's the bullet engraving. That's what I made the breach seater to modify. 

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pat i. posted this 20 December 2014

bjornb wrote: joeb33050 wrote: Paul Pollard wrote: joeb33050 wrote: I'm trying to get the 30 CBX story in one paper to understand it. Here it is so far:

It might be less confusing if the cartridge letters were in the proper order.

30XCB.  Not 30CBX, Not 30NBC or 30CBS.I've corrected this everywhere I found the error that you so kindly reported.  Merry Christmas.joe b. Joe,Pat will slap your hand again:D Duly noted and fixed. Thanks.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 December 2014

joe::

confusion is not all a bad thing. indeed, confusion is a prime component of problem solving ...

einstein was confused by the properties of light ...

if you are lost and confused in the woods ... hey, you just might stumble onto the castle of the good witch that grants you three wishes ...

if you are a cast shooter that is confused because shooting square bullets in a round hole gives unpredictable results ... that could be the start of finding a way out of the woods ...

admitting confusion is key to attaining unconfusion.

oh, hang on and enjoy the ride !

ken

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Brodie posted this 20 December 2014

Ken; I shoot round bullets out of a square hole in my muzzle loader.  Just how confused am I? Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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bjornb posted this 22 December 2014

I'll re-post what I just posted over on the NOE forum, for those who may be interested in the HV shooting that we have been experimenting with: <size="3"> I finally found time to shoot my 30 XCB rifle today, bringing along several loads that I had prepped after last week's outing. Today I was going to shoot ball powders, both Hodgdon LeveRevolution (LvR) and Winchester 760 have given higher velocities compared to extruded powders in earlier trials. All HV shooting today was done using Tim Malcolm's breech seater, as max powder capacity and highest possible MV was the goal. To recap, my 30 XCB rifle is a target rifle from the 1950s, built on an FN Mauser blind single shot action. The barrel is a new Shilen Match, 31 inches long, 1 in 14 twist. Tim Malcolm (Goodsteel) recently re-barreled and re-bedded the rifle.I had devised a “ladder test” of sorts, to figure out at which MV the bullet/lube/powder charge combo would lose accuracy. Not to be confused with the Creighton Audette ladder test, this was simply a series of charges starting at a known level, increasing by 2 grains per charge for the LvR and 1 grain per charge for the W760. Here are the targets for these 2 “ladders":

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bjornb posted this 22 December 2014

<size="3">At this point I picked one charge from each “ladder” and shot a 10-shot group of each. I picked charges that I believed would stay together:

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bjornb posted this 22 December 2014

Next group:

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bjornb posted this 22 December 2014

<size="3">Finally I upped the charge of the LvR powder by one grain and shot another group. This turned out to be where accuracy went south:

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bjornb posted this 22 December 2014

I did not bother to measure this group.I have to say that this outing was very encouraging, and it certainly proved to me that the NOE 310-165 FN (xcb) is an outstanding bullet, and that White Label 2700+ Carnauba Red is an outstanding lube. With this shooting I consider myself done with the breech seater, I'm sending it to Larry Gibson in Arizona so he can use it with his Oehler Ballistics Lab to plot the pressure curves in some of these loads. After the 55 grain load of LvR today (MV 3316 fps) the bolt handle was hard to open and I didn't increase the powder charge any further. Primers were starting to flatten, but I have seen them much worse on heavy jacketed loads.

Sorry for having to break this into several posts, I couldn't figure out the attachments. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 December 2014

very encouraging results, makes me wonder about how fast a 35 or 375 or 416 in a good barrel could go with 3 moa or less. hmmm i have a new douglas full heavy in 416 with a 16 twist ... i was going to put it on a 30-40 krag case but now ...

anybody out there wanna trade me a rem 7xx with belted magnum action or rifle, rusty barrel ok, for a nice clean rem. 721 in 30-06 -- or a 722 in 300 savage ? i can bore out the '06 y put in a sako extractor but would like to have it magazine feed. pm me if.

ken

edit::  oh, i think you can only attach one photo here at a time.  facebook is multiple.

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bjornb posted this 22 December 2014

Ken, I'm about to find out. The reamer has been cut at PTG for the 35-caliber version of the XCB cartridge. The 35x57, formed from 30-06 brass with modified 35 Whelen dies, is designed to do for cast bullets in a 35 caliber rifle what the 30 XCB did in 30 caliber. Tim Malcolm (Goodsteel) is building a rifle for me on an FN commercial Mauser action, with a Douglas sporter weight barrel and a McMillan Hunter stock. Tim has also lathe turned a prototype 35 XCB bullet in steel, a scaled-up version of the NOE 310-165 FN bullet, that will be produced at some point. In the meantime my plan is to shoot the RCBS 35-200 FN bullet, which has proved excellent in the 358 Winchester.

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goodsteel posted this 22 December 2014

Ken, you can build a rifle in .416 caliber that will do 3000FPS. however, this would require good quality stock material, a double lug, and a guy willing to hold onto it while yanking the bang switch. That sounds just downright painful!!! Take a look at the 416 Barrett.

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tturner53 posted this 22 December 2014

Very interesting stuff, keep it coming. This is advanced league, I'm a hacker, but I enjoy reading about other's experiments.

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badgeredd posted this 25 December 2014

<user=6823>bjornb wrote: Ken, I'm about to find out. The reamer has been cut at PTG for the 35-caliber version of the XCB cartridge. The 35x57, formed from 30-06 brass with modified 35 Whelen dies, is designed to do for cast bullets in a 35 caliber rifle what the 30 XCB did in 30 caliber. Tim Malcolm (Goodsteel) is building a rifle for me on an FN commercial Mauser action, with a Douglas sporter weight barrel and a McMillan Hunter stock. Tim has also lathe turned a prototype 35 XCB bullet in steel, a scaled-up version of the NOE 310-165 FN bullet, that will be produced at some point. In the meantime my plan is to shoot the RCBS 35-200 FN bullet, which has proved excellent in the 358 Winchester.I built a rifle for the cartridge next to the 30-06 case right of center, 6 years ago for cast bullet shooting, It seems to be rather close to the newer 35 XCB. 

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bjornb posted this 27 December 2014

Edd, It's very close. However, the 35 XCB will look like a shortened 35 Whelen, just like the 30 XCB is a short version of the 30-06.

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goodsteel posted this 28 December 2014

It's real close Edd. The XCB will be virtually identical to what you show there, except it will be 2.244 in case length, and your wildcat up yonder looks a bit taller than that. The 30 XCB was intended as a cast friendly 308 Winchester of sorts, and the 35 XCB is following the same path as it pertains to the 358 Winchester. The case capacities are nearly the same. I can get just a few more grains of powder in the XCB cases, than their 308 based counterparts.

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badgeredd posted this 28 December 2014

The shoulder on my case is in the same location as the 8x57 and has a neck a somewhat longer than the 35 Whelen for a total case length of 2.362” to be very cast friendly with bullets up to 300 grains. My intent was to get a more efficient case capacity with powders that are cast friendly from normal length barrels for hunting. It works and I have never had any issues with feeding in the 1909 actioned rifle I built it on.  With the Lyman receiver sight, I have routinely shot a sub 2” group at 100 yards. Velocity with a 225 grain bullets is right at 2500 fps for my normal loads. Unfortunately, I lost several targets and other pictures on Photobucket about 4 months ago. When the weather gets warmer, I'll have to shoot a group with the 200, 225, 250 and 300 grain bullets to post.

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Fg1 posted this 28 December 2014

Sounds like a 9x57 Mauser .Super cartridge ! Ed , yours looks like a shortened Whelen .

The 30xcb looks a whole lot like a 7.7 Jap but 1mm shorter.

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badgeredd posted this 28 December 2014

Fg1 wrote: Sounds like a 9x57 Mauser .Super cartridge ! Ed , yours looks like a shortened Whelen .

The 30xcb looks a whole lot like a 7.7 Jap but 1mm shorter. A well made point Fg1! In fact I use a set of modified 35 Whelen dies to form and load the wildcat. I like simple and once I had the concept figured out, I shortened a set of 35 Whelen dies to proceed with the project. The 9 by 57 has a shorter neck but otherwise is very close to the same thing. My entire project was focused on reducing 35 Whelen powder capacity and using the long neck to be more cast bullet friendly than several other cartridges in existence.

The whole idea of a longer neck to be more cast bullet friendly is an old one so my cartridge is nothing new or innovative. There is a good reason why 30-40 Krag and 30-30 Winchester are loved by many for cast bullet shooting. As they say, there is nothing new under the sun!

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Larry Gibson posted this 28 December 2014

Most .30/.31 cal bottlenecked cartridges “look a whole lot like". The difference between them all is the “except". The 30 XCB is different because it has a longer non tapered tight neck the '06 case taper, the '06 shoulder and is .30 caliber not .31 caliber. The 30 XCB also has less capacity than the 7.7 Jap as it is very close to the capacity of the .308W.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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badgeredd posted this 28 December 2014

It is a valid observation fg1 in my mind.

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Hamish posted this 28 December 2014

I'm interested in trying this cartridge, could someone post a drawing?

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Fg1 posted this 29 December 2014

Ok, its a 7.62x57, Jap is 7.7x58 . .004” difference in bore and .040” difference in length ?

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goodsteel posted this 29 December 2014

TheAmishGolfballShooter wrote: I'm interested in trying this cartridge, could someone post a drawing? Page #4, Post #70. This is not the MBT drawing but was generated from information gleaned. Still it looks pretty close. The original MBT drawings were done in Autocad, and are hard to convey here, so for all intents and purposes, the drawing posted should give you a very good idea of the critical dimensions of this cartridge.

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Larry Gibson posted this 29 December 2014

Fg1 wrote: Ok, its a 7.62x57, Jap is 7.7x58 . .004” difference in bore and .040” difference in length ?   ....."except” a straight neck, a longer neck, a different shoulder angle, a different body taper and, yes, the caliber is .30 and not .31.  No, it is not a 7.62x57 as the body taper, shoulder angle and neck length (that one would have a very long neck) would all be different were it.    Try setting a 30 XCB case next to a 7.7 Jap case and you'll see about as much similarity as the 30-40 Krag has to the .303 British.  LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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goodsteel posted this 29 December 2014

Look, I'm a gunsmith. I test fire rifles of all different calibers every week. One day it's a 6.5X284Norma and the next it's a 45-70. My opinion? a cartridge is a cartridge. If you're going to be shooting this side of 200 yards, it's a wash. When men come to me asking about a custom rifle, they always try to find the wildest, craziest, most obscure wildcat they can dream up, and I always try to push them towards a standard NATO cartridge or one of it's derivatives because it's easier to get ammo for.

The 30XCB is no different. The fact is that for cast shooting, both the 308 and the 30-06 have mutually exclusive benefits to a cast bullet shooter. The goal was to make a wildcat that was just as tame as it could possibly be for ease of use. The dies are made from standard 30-06 dies and finding 30-06 brass is like finding wildflowers in springtime. The options are staggering. Could we have done this with a different cartridge? Of course!!! A pressure chamber is a pressure chamber, but we wanted a 308ish sized pressure chamber with the 30-06 neck and throat, that would feed perfectly in a Mauser rifle (hey, get off my cloud, I like Mausers. It's a disease (Mausers-r-awesomeitis) and I'm seeking therapy).

It doesn't really matter too awful much what size the pressure chamber is, but we wanted to create a platform that would be easy to work with and deduce load data for, easy to make, and cheap to get dies for. We succeeded. Now the fun part is figuring out just how far we can rag this puppy out!

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badgeredd posted this 30 December 2014

goodsteel wrote: TheAmishGolfballShooter wrote: I'm interested in trying this cartridge, could someone post a drawing? Page #4, Post #70. This is not the MBT drawing but was generated from information gleaned. Still it looks pretty close. The original MBT drawings were done in Autocad, and are hard to convey here, so for all intents and purposes, the drawing posted should give you a very good idea of the critical dimensions of this cartridge.

If the original was done in AutoCad, have a jpeg file exported from AutoCad so it can be posted. I really would like to see the dimensions as they are exactly, Thanks.

Edd

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pat i. posted this 30 December 2014

Just to add something to this thread cuz I'm feeling left out here's a couple of cartridges I've used in CBA bench matches. The shorter one is the front end of a 30/06 that was my first bench gun built on a solid bottom Savage action I don't know how many years ago using a Shilen SM 14 twist barrel. I shortened an 06 die and formed it out of 35 Remington cases. Case is 1.700 long. I only had a 45/70 and 06 reamer at the time which explains why I did it. It shot no better or worse than any of the other short .30 cases and in hind sight was a complete waste of time and a perfectly good 30/06 die since I bought a 30 BR reamer and rechambered the barrel the next year. Next to it is the 30x47 I chambered up and fit for my last BR rifle. I used a 22 inch 17 twist Shilen SM barrel and was getting 2600 fps with pretty good accuracy without much work. The case is formed from either 308 or 300 Savage brass and is 1.850 long after forming and trimming with a 30 degree shoulder. I had some small primer 308 BR brass I tried but found no difference in accuracy over the large primer brass. I truly believe I could have pumped this thing up another couple hundred fps but would have lost the accuracy necessary for BR matches.  Case capacity is approx. 48 grains of water which leads to the question. Have any of you guys using the XCB checked the water capacity of the case? I ask because I was wondering if it was close enough to an existing case that a lot of the work of case forming could be gotten around. Case neck length isn't an issue because you could extend the length of the neck by cutting a longer ball seat in the barrel.    That's it. Just wanted to feel I was part of the discussion for a bit and show some different stuff. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 30 December 2014

good stuff, pat i. ; sooner or later after reviewing successful systems we should detect a pattern .

or ... maybe, as bees are here to make honey, god made cast bullets to shoot 2 moa ...

ken

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R. Dupraz posted this 30 December 2014

Pat:   What were the bullet weights/lengths and designs that you used in these twists?

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pat i. posted this 30 December 2014

It was a simpler time for me in the beginning so I was using the RCBS 165 Sil in the what I was calling at the time 30/35, that's the shorter case. In the 30x47 I was using slightly modified 160 and 170 LBT spritzers. The 160 gr bullet is .925 long and the 170 is .975 long ready to go. There's a picture of one of the LBT bullets in this thread somewhere

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goodsteel posted this 30 December 2014

Too bad you're not still shooting for HV. I would be very curious how your rifle would like the NOE bullet. Lord, with a 17 twist barrel, you might very well be able to stab small groups at 2900 FPS. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

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R. Dupraz posted this 30 December 2014

Thanks Pat:

Always interesting information, comparing twists and bullet lengths/weights. In particular the .30's.

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bjornb posted this 30 December 2014

pat i. wrote: Just to add something to this thread cuz I'm feeling left out here's a couple of cartridges I've used in CBA bench matches. The shorter one is the front end of a 30/06 that was my first bench gun built on a solid bottom Savage action I don't know how many years ago using a Shilen SM 14 twist barrel. I shortened an 06 die and formed it out of 35 Remington cases. Case is 1.700 long. I only had a 45/70 and 06 reamer at the time which explains why I did it. It shot no better or worse than any of the other short .30 cases and in hind sight was a complete waste of time and a perfectly good 30/06 die since I bought a 30 BR reamer and rechambered the barrel the next year.

Next to it is the 30x47 I chambered up and fit for my last BR rifle. I used a 22 inch 17 twist Shilen SM barrel and was getting 2600 fps with pretty good accuracy without much work. The case is formed from either 308 or 300 Savage brass and is 1.850 long after forming and trimming with a 30 degree shoulder. I had some small primer 308 BR brass I tried but found no difference in accuracy over the large primer brass. I truly believe I could have pumped this thing up another couple hundred fps but would have lost the accuracy necessary for BR matches.

 Case capacity is approx. 48 grains of water which leads to the question. Have any of you guys using the XCB checked the water capacity of the case? I ask because I was wondering if it was close enough to an existing case that a lot of the work of case forming could be gotten around. Case neck length isn't an issue because you could extend the length of the neck by cutting a longer ball seat in the barrel.   

That's it. Just wanted to feel I was part of the discussion for a bit and show some different stuff.  Pat,60 grains of water is what the XCB cartridge holds. 

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Larry Gibson posted this 30 December 2014

Pat I. When I created the 30x57 some years back using shortened '06 dies I found the cases formed out of WW '-06 cases held 1/2 gr more H4895 than did WW FL sized .308W cases with the powder at the bottom of the neck. I supplied formed cases to goodsteel for his 30 XCB. I don't have a 30 XCB but the 30x57 dimensions of the cases I formed are very, very close to the 30 XCB cartridge drawing dimensions.   Thought I'd add a photo;  The left cartridge is my own 308 CBC I came up with back in the early '80s.  The .308W is next to it on the right.  The 30x57 is in the middle and the 30-06 is on the right.  The second from the right is the 7.7 Jap.  LMG  

Concealment is not cover.........

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mtngun posted this 10 May 2015

<url=/view_user.php?id=8104>goodsteel wrote: You fellers see the little blip in the pressure trace? That's the bullet engraving.  Hmmm.   So if a cast bullet causes a little blip on a pressure trace due to engraving pressure, then a jacketed bullet should cause a big blip when it engraves, and a Barnes X bullet should cause a giant blip?  Amirite? Here's a trace for a jacketed bullet, from the Oehler website.   No big blip, no little blip.

 Point being, while there may be “little blips” on Larry' traces, we don't know what they are.    There seems to be an awful lot of jumping-to-conclusions going on.    I've done a fair amount of pressure tracing with high velocity cast, and don't recall seeing any “little blips” that might correspond to engraving.    Bear in mind that the raw signal from a strain gage is very noisy, and is usually filtered by both hardware and software before it shows up on your computer screen.    It can be particularly tricky for a pressure trace to capture the true point of ignition, because there is a lot of noise that can be mistaken for ignition.   I.e., I often get false “ignition” if I jiggle the cable or if I close the action hard.    That said, I do appreciate people sharing their shooting data, blips or no blips.  ude: While I don't plan to try breach seating myself, the breach seated data that has been presented is very useful to prove a point -- that, as others have said, high velocity cast bullets fail mainly due to something going wrong in the throat.   We can debate what that something might be, but I agree that the passage through the throat is the weak link.   As I recently posted on another thread, the weakness of Dr. Mann's otherwise great book is that he paid no attention to the throat.   He started out claiming that best accuracy was obtained by seating bore-diameter bullets (through a false muzzle, if I remember correctly) in his BPCR calibers.  Towards the end of the book he switched to smokeless calibers -- which probably had a decent throat though he didn't say -- and began getting satisfactory accuracy with conventionally loaded cartridges. The book on the ideal cast bullet throat has yet to be written, as far as I know.   I appreciate you guys adding your data to the knowledge pool.  

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goodsteel posted this 10 May 2015

It has nothing to do with the throat, and the bullet is not getting damaged (I've seen all the damage that happens to cast bullets and in my rifles, it is perfectly ballanced damage that would have hardly any effect on accuracy whatsoever). What is happening is the bullet is getting preloaded with a certain amount of torque due to the simple laws of inertia and physics, and once the bullet clears the crown it is no longer constrained and the internal stresses in the alloy are released, causing turbulance the centrifugal force can get a hold of. This same thing happens inside a copper jacketed bullet to the core, but the core is made of relatively soft alloy that is not bonded to the jacket in any way, so it is free to slip and twist in the jacket in the first 2” of the barrel and take a set there. When the jacketed bullet exits the barrel, everything is settled, packed, spun up to RPM and ready for an event free flight (it may surprise you to know that most target bullets are made with a pure lead core. I wonder why they do that? Hmmmm).

Regardless, breach seating allows the entire bullet to spin up all at once, and is how we were able to achieve accurate speeds of 3100FPS where fixed ammunition failed at 2700fps or less. This is also why I designed the XCB bullet like I did. Everything about it was aimed at getting as much of the bullet moving as possible, and also, my thought was that if the bullet is fully engraved, then it cannot be engraved in a twisted fashion.
This appears to have worked pretty well, as Larry Gibson is routinely shooting 3000FPS with fixed ammunition using this bullet design, and holding linear 1.5MOA out to 300 yards. The bullet is balanced, it engraves nicely, and it also has pretty nice BC to boot.

Moving forward, I have designed a similar bullet for the 35XCB wildcat (which I have test fired at this point and still get a special feeling when I think of this new cartridge and the potential there!). This new bullet design was made with the same attention to detail and like the 30XCB, is bolstered against the accuracy robbing stresses as I understand them. I don't think we will quite make it to 3000FPS with the 35XCB (given the inherent weakness of a cast bullet of greater mass) but I wonder if greater accuracy at high velocity will be an even bigger reality for the 35XCB than it was for the 30XCB. Time will tell. I've got a 30” Palma contour 358 caliber barrel on order and a nice Sako AV here waiting on it. It should be interesting. 

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Sgt_Mike posted this 27 January 2016

frnkeore wrote: The best way to gain credibility on this forum is to shoot in CBA matches (or other organized matches) and then no one will dispute your results.

While this is very interesting and I know that bjorb's experiments are truthful, you are in a forum of competive shooters and we all gage results on match results.

There are CBA clubs all over the USA and you don't have to become a member to shoot in a match, at least not to start.

Keep posting and after you get what you think is your best combination, go to a match and shoot it. I believe that you'll see that you'll have the admiration of all here.

FrankFrank, after reading this post of yours and what you stated, “There are CBA clubs all over the USA and you don't have to become a member to shoot in a match, at least not to start." Now for my question where are the Arkansas matches held and whom do I contact to shoot in one ?

Why am I asking because I truly want to know I think it would be a hoot to shoot in one.

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mtngun posted this 27 January 2016

Dunno about Arkansas but if there are no matches in your area you can participate in postal matches.

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Newt posted this 27 January 2016

Where in Arkansas are you? I plan on going up to pioneer this year myself. It would be cool to start a CBA club match here in Arkansas though.

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Sgt_Mike posted this 27 January 2016

Near Goodsteel in Conway Newt.

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Sgt_Mike posted this 27 January 2016

Newt I suspect the unrestricted class would interest me

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frnkeore posted this 27 January 2016

Mike, Here is a list of clubs that hold matches. Look through it and find the closest range and club, to you. Note that it's for 2015 and the shooting dates that it includes, will have to be updated.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/schedule/2015brmatchschedule.pdf>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/schedule/2015brmatchschedule.pdf

Frank

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Newt posted this 27 January 2016

Well, that makes three of us. If I read the rules right, we would only need one more(if we all shot the same event) to do registered matches.

I am sure you all have seen/heard of them, but Old Fort Gun Club is located there in Van Buren. With a name like that I do not see how they don't do CBA, but I check every now and again and never see anything.

If we all were serious, and had another(or more), we could check with them about the use of their range. They have a 300 yard range, divided up into 3 sections(of course). It looks to have an 8 station bench also.

Just an idea. I am sure there would be a WHOLE lot more details that would have to be ironed out.

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Newt posted this 27 January 2016

If there is not an age requirement, I just realized that my boy(will be 13 this year) would be very happy to participate.

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Sgt_Mike posted this 27 January 2016

Frank thank you. I'll look it over. Some reason I want to say Missouri is about as close as I'll see. I want to think that La, Tx, Ar, Ok,and Tn are not on the list. But I'll look over it again.

Newt, Lets see the boy (my son) will be eighteen this year, with his rifle he would be I guess hunting rifle. But if I read the rules right in unrestricted he is not barred with a factory rifle. just disadvantaged. Then there is Goodsteel he might be interested depending on what he has on the bench and time. Van Buren area would work as it does not require motels etc etc just a 3-4 hr drive, about half that if I drive my dodge challenger lol.

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Newt posted this 27 January 2016

I would like to do either production or hunter, that's the only type of guns I have, but I'd jump in the unrestricted in order to be able to shoot with others.

You must have to stop and take a lot of breaks..... :) I figured Van Buren was only a little over 2 hours from you. It looks to be about a little under 2 for me.

It might not be feasible, or even doable, depending upon the Club rules and such.

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John Alexander posted this 27 January 2016

You don't have to have four shooters all in the same class to be a CBA registered match.  Just 4 CBA members.  Some could be military rifle shooters shooting on different targets.

I'm away from my regular computer or I could give you the email for the Director of Registered competition. I also can't send you a copy of our rules but they are on the CBA website. John 

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Sgt_Mike posted this 27 January 2016

Newt wrote: I would like to do either production or hunter, that's the only type of guns I have, but I'd jump in the unrestricted in order to be able to shoot with others.

You must have to stop and take a lot of breaks..... :) I figured Van Buren was only a little over 2 hours from you. It looks to be about a little under 2 for me.

It might not be feasible, or even doable, depending upon the Club rules and such.

Newt,

.>  Military vehicles  LMAO is usually how I go, yeah in the challenger can be there in no time flat.. without speeding... my ole truck yeah she like to run 65 for gas economy.

I like the Van Burean area for this  but the Mayflower Range operated by the wildfife commision .. I think can be rented ... maybe ... maybe not.....................................  that location offers benches but is limited to 200 yards with plenty of points. I check into it later

(as a alternate location to what you mention)

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Sgt_Mike posted this 27 January 2016

John Alexander wrote: You don't have to have four shooters all in the same class to be a CBA registered match.  Just 4 CBA members.  Some could be military rifle shooters shooting on different targets.

I'm away from my regular computer or I could give you the email for the Director of Registered competition. I also can't send you a copy of our rules but they are on the CBA website. John 

Even Better news.... John looks like a little mo research (on my end) is in order.

Thank You Sir

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