Need mold info for 44Spec Kieth bullet

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  • Last Post 15 November 2007
steveb posted this 14 June 2007

Hi Gentleman, I was just sitting here daydreaming about  recieving (in a few months)a Ruger 50th Anniversary flatop being converted to 44 Spec  back from Cosby Custom Guns, and what I am going to feed it. I want to shoot Kieths through this gun and wondering what molds to get. For the most part, all I have experience with is the Lee six bangers. I'm looking at either Lyman or RCBS and wondering how close these will be to the original kieth design for the 44SPec. Any suggestions or comments, or tips about using steel molds or the quality between the two brands would  be appreciated. Thanks...Steve.

P.S. ALso did Keith originally run 250 grain slugs or 245 through the 44Spec or was that the 45Colt with the 250 grain slugs? As far as an RCBS mold, I'm looking at the two cavity 44-250-K

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=744337>http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=744337

And the Lyman mold I'm interested in.The four cavity 245 grain 429421

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=219738>http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=219738

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 14 June 2007

My advice is buy a four cavity Lyman mould ,you get a high rate production of correct dimension bullets .The  most important point of the ORIGINAL KEIT style bullets is “a full caliber ,wide front band  that seats outside of the 44 SPECIAL case.

This is one of the points praised by Veral Smith ,if I was to buy a new 44 or 38 mold I'd buy a 4 cavty of WFN heavy LBT mould.

Good old Elmer liked a deep square grease grove ,that  has been deleted ,as Lyman people said it made bullets stick in the mold.

Original Keith bullets were designed to be used in 38sp. and 44sp brass at MAGNUM speed and I believe you need that speed to get best stability and accuracy.

I have just bought an Uberti italian peacemaker in 44S&W Sp. and I am experimenting the Lyman 250 grainer and some lee 240 lee tumble lube, 200 gr. roundnose and wad cutters.

All my moulds are t least 10 to 20 years old,I have both two cavity RCBS and 4 cavity  Lyman and I prefer the Lymans.for stout loads. in my S&W 629 and marlin carbine.

You might find that to day's cutting cherries are different

I think I'll mostly use the six cavity lee for  cow boy shooting in the peacemaker clone.

P.S.crimp them separately in the Lee  factory crimp die.

 

 

 

 

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Southern Man posted this 14 June 2007

Hello Steve,I'm fairly new to casting but have been shooting and reloading all my life.I had Hamliton Bowen do a .44 special conversion on a 50 year Black Hawk last year,that is areal tack driver with Keith?? bullets whatever that is.Meaning the boxes of cast bullets and the RCBS 44 250k I have says Keith,but there not the same.One brand cast bullets I got from a guy who says he got the mould out of Keiths hands,and I have no reason to doubt him.That brand matches the RCBS very closely,in shape and weight,around 250 grns. depending on the alloy.Another brand that says keith on the box does'nt.They weigh 240 grns. and have a narrower front driving band.I think if you read what Keith wrote in six guns and other places you'll find what he describes,not that he give exact measurements,But the general description will match the RCBS pretty well.All the powders I've tried with all three bullets have shot from.700"to1.5” @ 80'And I've run them from 700 to 1250 FPS in the 4” bl.I only shot 4 rnds. at 1250 there just to hot for that small frame.I've settled on 950 FPS and they'll cut  one inch or less @ 80' consistintly whith either bullet.I had a bisely hammer put in mine and Turnbull did the case coloring.It's a real joy to look at and shoot .Hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine.Southern Man 

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steveb posted this 15 June 2007

I had a bisely hammer put in mine and Turnbull did the case coloring.It's a real joy to look at and shoot .Hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine.Southern Man   

I'm having Doug Turnbull do the color case on this as well.:)

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Ed Harris posted this 08 November 2007

The bullets I use in my S&W .44 Hand Ejector is the Saeco #441 which I cast from an old Saeco Carpenteria, CA gang mould that dates from the 1960s. This is the original Cramer version of Keith's bullet. Grooves are flat-bottomed and generous, but not square, really trapazoidal in cross section with a 60 degree angle up the sides. Bullets fall right out. It casts 260 grains and .432” diameter from soft indoor range backstop scrap which is from mostly .38 Special and .22 rimfire bullets. I mostly load 4.8 grains of Bullseye in the .44 Spl. for about 700 fps. In the .44 Magnum revolvers I load 7 grs. for ~1050.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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shooter93 posted this 08 November 2007

Just an interesting thought....and I'm not saying round lube grooves are detrimental but the major complaint about square ones are bullets won't drop from the mold...why then....do all my original H&G molds drop them right out as well as any LBT Keith bullet mold I've used?....it's not the square groove...it the mold maker.

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CB posted this 09 November 2007

Hey Steve; Just another option, Lyman offers a 200gr. semiwad that is gas check capable. The bullet will perform with very little yaw at 850 fps from a factory stock 40 year old Ruger flattop. Jacking up 44 special loads to magnum velocities is like racing weedeaters, it makes no sense. The subsonic loads are a joy to shoot all day, this lends itself for a lot of pleasurable shooting. This particular combination has captured two state gold medals, in NRA hunter pistol, for myself, so I know it works. It also trims your alloy consumption by a noticable margin. You should consider lead scrounging as becoming an art in the future and begin preparing now. My moulds are over thirty years old and doing well. You are smart to research carefully for what might be a lifetime investment. I hope mt two cents give a pennys worth of help.
Roy

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Veral Smith posted this 11 November 2007

  If you are stuck on a Keith design bullet, understand that the problem Elmer had with mold makers reducing the front driving band in length or diameter has not gone away, and I am the only mold maker, to my knowledge that makes his 44 250 grain authentic in every detail.  I will also cut it in gas check with round lube groove for those who want better performance but demand the Keith nose profile, and I recently made a series of “Keith” bullets in every handgun caliber.  For these I have several options.  First I offer the exact 44 profile in whatever caliber is desired, then in heavier weights, with or without gas check in all cases.  I also have Keiths authenic 45 bullets, both the 250 gr for Colts, which has a short nose, and the heavy 310 gr. 

  I got my sample bullets for copying from people who had been personal friends of Elmer, and have copied as exact as I can.  To sell a customer less with claims that it is authentic is fraud................     The row of dots means PERIOD!

Contact me at      LBTMoulds.com               For personal quesitons email me from that website.   Veral Smith

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CB posted this 12 November 2007

Hey Veral You get all of that firewood done yet?

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Southern Man posted this 12 November 2007

Hello Mr. Smith,How much diffrence is ther in your .44 250 keith, & the Rcbs .44 , 250k? Also how does your .44 WFN compare in terminal performance, and accuracy? I've never tried any of your bullets or moulds , but I'm going to order one of your moulds , I just havent decided what type or bore diamater. Thanks for your help. Southern Man

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Veral Smith posted this 13 November 2007

Yes, Jeff, we got the firewood all in, about 30 tons worth!  Quite a handfull for two old people!

  Southern man.  -  The gent who sent me what he said were authentic Keith bullets, sent a copy of a note that Keith wrote stating that they were.  He sent RCBS samples at the same time he sent mine.  RCBS promptly brought their version out with the first driving band at about .080 wide.  Elmer said that all three bands should be .100 wide, and that's what I make them.  One has to look close to see the difference but on target it won't take so much study.  20% less bearing up front hurts accuracy very noticably.

  My LFN will shoot side by side with the authentic Keith and give identical terminal performance if loaded to identical velocities.  I put a round lube groove in it and all my LBT designs, which lubes as well as the flatbottom deeper Keith groove, casts easier and requires half the lube.  My LFN in equal weight is capable of about 200 fps higher velocities when both are loaded to equal pressure at magnum levels.

  My WFN will out shoot either the Keith or my LFN with the same weight of around 250 gr, but I like it best with 260 or 280 gr.  It punches about double the wound size as the above two, when shot at magnum speed, and anchors game with perhaps 4 times the speed, to make a guess.  It is rare for a 44 WFN hit animal to move out of it's tracks, and those that do rarely go more than 50 feet.

  If I were to give all the testimonies to that fact, which I've received over the last 27 years, it would consume at least as much space as this entire forum.  The Federal Cast Core are a modified WFN which I originally made the molds for.  Only the bearing was modified so they would chamber in any gun.  Meplat is identical to the WFN's I've always produced.

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Southern Man posted this 14 November 2007

Hello Mr. Smith, Thanks for awnsering my questions. I got my RCBS .44 250-k, From Midway last year, and the front and rear driving bands measure .120” , with the center being .100". Thats after being sized to .429", and cast from 16 and 1 alloy.I do want to try one of your moulds, just something that I,m less satisfied with than the .38, .44 , and .45s , that I,m using now. What do you offer in .41 that's heavier than normal , that I could use in my M-57 S&W? Thanks Southern Man

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Veral Smith posted this 15 November 2007

Great news on your RCBS Keith,      IF    the front drive band is the same diameter as the other two, and if it is large enough to fill your cylinder throats.  I appoligize that I missrepresented what they offer now, as I assumed they had never changed what they first 'copied'.

  I offer any weight you ask for in any of the calibers you named.

  S&W's are strong enough to handle heavy loads with heavy bullets, so far as pressure goes, but a steady diet of heavy loads shakes the action loose quite early.  My recommendation is that you get a WFN in whatever weight you want and shoot it with 20% of full loads if you want to shoot and practice with it a lot, but stoke it up to full throttle for hunting big game.  The gun will last for ages if used this way.  Since they dish out more felt recoil than most single actions, I believe most shooters will love the sweet handling easy packing S&W's most with such a loading procedure.

Please contact me at           LBTMoulds.com                     Veral Smith of LBT

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