The beginning of cast bullet accuracy

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  • Last Post 11 December 2013
onondaga posted this 08 December 2013

<url=http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7887> Bullet FIT ! This post is directed to those that think accuracy with cast bullets is a myth and to beginners having failures trying to get accuracy. I shoot cast bullets in all of the calibers I shoot, .223, 30-30, .308, 30-06, 7.62X39, 375 H&H, .458 Win Mag and .500 S&W, all rifle. Each will shoot 1 inch or less at 50 yards with a couple doing a little better. All of my loads have one thing in common that has made the difference in accuracy for me. Upon chambering a round, I can feel the cast bullet slide lightly in the chamber throat because I have taken steps to get the bullets to fit like that in every caliber that I shoot cast bullets. Actually, .458 Win Mag was the caliber that completely changed how I make an effort to get cast bullets to shoot well. Decades ago I decided to shoot cast in .458 WM because factory ammo in that caliber is so expensive that shooting the rifle was cost prohibitive but I really like my Colt Sauer Grand African in .458 WM and it has remained my favorite sporting rifle for many years. I tried several bullet designs and even honed bullet molds to get the sliding fit of bullets into the chamber with loaded rounds but still was getting 4 - 6 inch groups at 50 yards shooting the .458 WM and cast bullets with all my efforts. One day I used a kinetic bullet puller to take apart a round that I had seated the bullet too deeply into the case. I visually noticed that the area of the bullet that had been seated in the case was sized down by the brass upon seating. My .461” bullet that had the perfect fit to the chamber throat had its base and all of the bullet that was seated into the case sized down to .459"This condition of undersize bullet bases and part of the bullet body will allow gas jetting as the bullet goes down the bore when shooting and destroy accuracy. I called Lee Manufacturing's technical department and told them their .458 Win Mag Full Length Sizing Die was over sizing my brass and making my bullet bases smaller when seating cast bullets measuring .461" into my FL sized .458 WM brass. The Lee technician told me that the .458 WM actually has a slightly tapering case and is NOT a straight walled case at all. He told me that it is a common and recommended practice to back off the FL sizing for the .458 with cast bullets just to the point where the resulting case size does not cause swaging down or resizing of cast bullets to smaller than the size they were before seating. He instructed me to make dummy loads and back off the die, then pull the bullets and measure them. He said to repeat the tests till I backed the die off enough that my bullets would not be sized down and then test chambering function of the dummy load that had the right sized brass for my bullets and see if they chambered OK in my rifle. Then my common problem with cast bullets in the .458 WM would be fixed. He said that can happen in any caliber and ruin accuracy with cast bullets but other calibers will require different steps depending on the caliber and cast bullet size needed for the firearm. This all made sense to me at the time and I have learned the steps necessary for bullet fit in all my calibers. I am sure that this is a primary reason I have gotten all of my calibers to shoot well with cast bullets. Sound decisions on the use of gas checks and alloy selection to match your load level ballistic pressure are certainly important too. Load levels approaching start loads for jacketed bullets can be achieved with accuracy in many calibers using cast bullets when you make the right decisions on fit, alloy and gas checks. My favorite reference to understand alloy selection and it's relation to load pressure for plain based cast bullets is “ Modern Reloading, Second Edition” by Richard Lee. Mr. Lee presumes you already know and understand the importance of bullet fit when using cast bullets and all of his recommendations and predictions depend on bullet fit because bullet fit is the most important factor in cast bullet accuracy. Gary

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Garyshome posted this 08 December 2013

Are you using a Lee FL sizing Die? You are backing the die out of the tool head to get the sizer ring to just crimp the case lightly?

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onondaga posted this 08 December 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7861>Garyshome

Yes, I use the Lee FL Die set for .458 Win Mag.  The FL die has been adjusted from full down contact with the shell holder and by trial and error testing the die for my specific application ended being backed out about 1/2 inch from the shell holder and locked there. The amount will vary for your application.

A partial sizing of the brass is the result of this type adjustment for a tapered case Full Length Sizing Die and the adjustment successfully eliminated the sized brass  from having the effect of swaging down my .461” diameter cast bullets for my rifle.

My CRIMP on .458 brass is done in a separate step with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.  I purposely set the bullet seating die in .458 NOT to crimp brass at all when seating bullets and do the crimp in a separate step with the Lee FCD.

I use Lee dies for every caliber I load and prefer Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die sets when available and suitable for my firearm applications, but I FL size for .458 Win Mag. and also .223 that is semi auto fired. My .223 ammo that is fired from my single shot varmint rifle is segregated and it is loaded using a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die set.

The FCD crimp on my .458 brass is set heavy to .005” deep:

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/458follower.jpg.html>

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99 Strajght posted this 09 December 2013

Gary What bullet are you using? I have every 45 caliber Lee bullet and have never seen that one.

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onondaga posted this 09 December 2013

That is my favorite and it is one slamming bullet for the .458 WM. Lee custom made that mold for the now out of business RanchDog Molds. Accurate Molds will cut these for you.  It is a tumble lube design extreme meplat flat nose gas checked bullet, the RDCTL 460-350-FN.  Mine drop .461” at 351 gr with certified Lyman #2 alloy. sized, lubed and an aluminum gas check

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/AL45RD.jpg.html>http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/Lee457.jpg.html>

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tlkeizer posted this 09 December 2013

Greetings Gary,

You have probably addressed this before, but after the work of not swaging your bullets with the case, why doesn't the crimping do the swaging?  Is it basically blown out on the shot, the first contact ring below it becoming sacrificial?

For my 45-70 trapdoors I have been using no crimp as it is really tough to put more than one cartridge in the gun at a time (sic).  With no crimp, and minimal neck expansion to where I can feel it but not necessarily see it, I have managed a few three shot groups at an inch, and some 5 shot groups at under an inch and a half; these at 50 yards.  The hundred yard groups are commensurate.  With your above comments, I might try backing off my resizer a bit, but will pull a couple bullets first to see how much swaging is being done by the case.

My last  group was 5 at 2 1/2 inches tall and half an inch wide (I think my eyes coupled with the small original sights gave more of the vertical line than the gun), then a friend shot a 5 shot group that was all in a 1 3/4 inch circle.  I offered to let him walk home after out shooting me with my gun and ammo, but he declined the offer.  Actually, I was pleased with the way the gun and loads shot for the two of us.  The day was slight overcast, no wind, nice 20 degrees above zero; a good day for up here in Alaska.

No caribou yet, though.  Maybe a chance tomorrow.

 

TK

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.22-10-45 posted this 09 December 2013

This case-sizing isn't just a rifle ctg. problem..I have noticed it in loading soft cast in revolver calibers fromn .32WCF thru .45 long-colt. partial neck-sizing and larger dia. expander plugs help.

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onondaga posted this 09 December 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6948>tlkeizer

You can crimp too heavily and cause damage to your bullets that will promote gas jetting. This problem is evident on paper when a bullet seating die that also roll crimps has been set to a heavy full roll crimp. Roll crimps cannot be measured with a micrometer like Lee Factory Crimps can be measured because a roll crimp is a curved surface and has to be evaluated visually by how much they roll into the bullet.

The only caliber I roll crimp is the .500 S&W rifle. There is no FCD available for that caliber. Still, I roll crimp in a separate last step for that cartridge with an additional seating die only set to roll crimp lightly after bullets are seated and I adjust and monitor the results carefully.

The FCD should be set to crimp .002 - .004” for a light to heavy range. However I set to .005” for .458 Win Mag heavy bullet loads that are magazine fed as I need this much crimp to stop bullet set back from recoil. You can easily see my .005” deep FCD crimp for .458 Win Mag in #3 response of this post.

Either roll crimp or FCD should be expected to open on firing if the die is set  correctly for the  load and you should be able to see this on your fired round brass that it has opened from firing.

Gary

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Notlwonk posted this 10 December 2013

The oversize expanders that .22-10-45 refers to are available from mail order dealers, They could also be made by some one with a lathe. Spence Wolf refers to them in his book on the Original Loads for the Trap Door Springfield. (That probably isn't the actual name of the book but something like that.) If a thin walled 45-70 will swage a bullet just imagine what a modern case such as 458 WM will do! Make sure that the expander is as long as the part of bullet that gets seated into the case

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onondaga posted this 10 December 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1288>Notlwonk

My Lee FL size die  in .458 Win Mag has no expander and relies on sizing of the outside of the case only. That is why I rely on die setting with this caliber to get the correct case mouth inside diameter for my bullets. I did get and try a custom charging die for .458 Win Mag from Lee that has a neck expander/case mouth flair hollow charging plug, but it  is for copper jacketed size bullets and not large enough for my .461” cast bullets. None the less I have used it for charging as it bells case mouths very well.

But currently, I have changed my setup and use the Universal Expander Lee die for case mouth flare after sizing and charge my sized/flared brass off of the press as I now scale weigh every charge instead of using a double throw with the Lee AutoDisk for the large .458 Win Mag charges. Even the double disk kit from Lee would not throw large enough charges for my powder selection with a single throw, so I changed to scale weighing charges. The AutoDisk itself works wonderfully with a single throw and holds +- .2 grain accuracy but a double throw for the .458 Win Mag  doubles the error factor. I couldn't tolerate that much error factor from a double throw for my charge weights.

Gary

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Chickenthief posted this 10 December 2013

One thing that will help keep bullet “sizing” to a minimum is neck annealing. There is a world of difference between a work hardned case and a freshly annealed one.

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.22-10-45 posted this 11 December 2013

You are spot-on Chickenthief..I had been using the excellent RWS brass in a custom Borchardt .22 Hornet for nerly 10 years. Last pring, I noticed lead was being scraped when bullet seating. I use Redding bushing neck dies & hand seat with the Wilson chamber seater with Sinclair micrometer top. Going to larger bushing & expander plug didn't help..those necks were hard! I have two identical bullets from Leeth moulds..g.c & plain-base..I seat both for full front band rifling engraving. Funny thing, after annealing..now I need to seat g.c. version slightly deeper..or bullet will be pushed back into case..the plain-base does not have this problem. I think the now softer neck..expanded by the slightly larger dia. check, has less hold on bullet compred to the full dia. contact of plain base bullet. I'll have to wait until they stiffen up a bit from shooting to see if my original O.A. length..and full engraving of first band returns.

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