223 UPDATE

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  • Last Post 16 December 2013
joeb33050 posted this 05 December 2013

The 22 cast thread that John A. started has gone somewhere, so here's where I am-after almost a year and a zillion rounds fired. Lyman Super Moly only in the space above the gas check. 225415 and 225646U, (U = ugly). Unique, Blue Dot, SR 4756, A#9, IMR 4227--None are bad, IMR 4227 seems slightly more accurate. The alumium gas checks seem less accurate = more flyers than Hornady gas checks. More success with -646 than -415. The 225646 is ~ 217” on the nose. I clean with a bore guide, 2 Hoppes bare steel rods, WD 40 in the can with the straw nozzle thing-one of the best inventions since wheels on luggage. A couple of squirts and patches and the patches are pretty clean. After the terrifying carbon ring discovery in another rifle, I started nylon brushing and cleaning furiously. This allowed the gun to shoot erratically for up to 25 shots! Back to minimal WD40 and patch cleaning, and the gun works much better. Rem oil or Marvel M.O. or one of my many other unguents for after the WD 40. I'd read horror storys about WD 40, rifling dissolving, teeth falling out, goopy stuff in the bore, etc.- for years and never dared. That nozzle turned my life around. Got tired of Dewey and his coated rods with unrepairable coating at high cost. $10 Hoppes rods work great. Anyhow, the 100 yard 5 shot group 5 group averages are now below 2” pretty consistently. I sent the 225646 mold to Eric O? the hollowpoint man, who's going to get those front grease grooves out of there and make the nose closer to .220” It will still be ~ 60 grains. I'll get back to the 225399 soon-I think we need a longer bigger mold.

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RicinYakima posted this 05 December 2013

Morning Joe,

Glad to see you are still banging away on that 22 project. Your 5 5shot group averages are better than my 222 Remington's.

I never heard of the WD40 issue, since it is mostly kerosene and some light oil. I've converted to Ed's Red at $12 a gallon, bare steel rods and nylon brushes. I do open a small bottle of Hoppes #9, but most for the aroma!

Awaiting to hear how the re-shaping of the bullet goes, I hope it makes a measurable difference.

Best,

Ric

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onondaga posted this 05 December 2013

Joe, if your .223 bore is slick and shiny from my polishing method that I recommended to you, then Johnson's Paste Wax on a fluffy bore swab in the bore a few times, allow to dry several minutes then a clean fluffy bore swab with a few strokes leaves my .223 in a condition that makes my groups smaller with the 225646. I also pull a clean dry .22 BoreSnake through once every 5 shots and am getting 1” 10 shot groups with the 225646, aluminum GCs and 45:45:10 tumble lube at 100 yards. Rifle: NEF Ultra Varmint single shot.

I seat this bullet at the COAL where the first band  engages the throat .010". This makes cartridges funny looking long, but they shoot well from my single shot rifle.

Gary

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kidwalli posted this 11 December 2013

I have an Ultra Varmint as well. I love these rifles and have another one a Buffalo Classic that right now is my favorite gun.May I ask what powder you are using for your 223 load?

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onondaga posted this 11 December 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=273>kidwalli My .223 load is a worked up load and may or may not be a performer in your rifle:

Lyman 225646 cast in Lyman #2 alloy sized checked ,.225 Tumble lubed 45:45:10 20.4 gr AA2230 2.204"LOA Velocity 2550 fps

Load shoots 1MOA NEF Ultra Varmint @100 yd and 2MOA from my AR15

Gary

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joeb33050 posted this 12 December 2013

The throat on this Savage has enlarged. At start, 225415 max OAL was ~ 2.090". After 11 months and ? 2000+ shots, all but 13 cast bullets, the max OAL is ~ 2.165". Also, a long ~.2205” nose doesn't engrave at all. I don't know if it engraved at start.  The 225415 averaged 1.86” 100 yard 5 shot 5 groups yesterday, the 225646 averaged 1.515” last week. This throat wear/greater OAL has improved accuracy-it ain't great but it's MCH better than a year ago. If throats wear that fast, I'm wondering if a bore ride nose shouldn't be tapered. My 30 cal bullets are seated out further as throat wears, but no as much/quickly as the 22s. Anyhow, 1” groups are a distant goal, visible? at last.

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John Alexander posted this 12 December 2013

joeb33050 wrote: If throats wear that fast, I'm wondering if a bore ride nose shouldn't be tapered. My 30 cal bullets are seated out further as throat wears, but no as much/quickly as the 22s. Joe, I was just thinking the same thing after remembering that I have seen the noses engraved more on the front than the rear. I was going to post something to for people interested in designing a 22 bullet that works. Maybe you and Frank are right and I am wrong in the discussion we have been having under 225299.  It wouldn't be the first time. John

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joeb33050 posted this 13 December 2013

It took a while to get this figured out. I loaded etc several times to get hers-several times at various OALs.NEI 71 grain bullets from John Alexander. The noses measure .220"-.2206". o nose goes in the muzzle, before or after loading in a case.Left  OAL = 2.008", this is the AL for the ctgs I loaded, the ctg goes in and out of the gun easily without de-bulleting. This is my definition of correct START OAL. Start here, then make a little shorter and test.Next, 2nd and 3rd ctgs. OAL = 2.230” Here there is some resistance chambering, the first band is hitting something and they don't de-bullet on removal. This is about as long as I'd load, more comfortable shorter-but-I know that first band is making a seal. There is NO trace of land marks on the noses.Right ctg, OAL = 2.294. This is as long as I can make them without de-bulleting and get them in the gun-with a lot of force. I'd never load this long. There are clear land marks on the nose, hard to measure but ~ .160” long land marks.So, there's no land / nose touching/marking at any comfortable OAL. I'm still surprised at the throat wear in ~ 2000 shots. I ASSUME that when new the nose would have been marked much further back, that the bbl was ~ the same size throat and muzzle.  

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frnkeore posted this 13 December 2013

I don't understand on the last two, how you don't have land marks @ 2.230 and then load out .064 to 2.294 and get .160 of land marking?

Frank

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 December 2013

re: throat wear ... i believe that new chambering jobs leave little burrs in the throat, which are rapidly burnt or wore off during early firing ... ( a good reason for lapping or fire lapping ) .

this would result in rapid advancement in seating length-to-stop, at first.  advancement should slow down  later.

it probably also explains my observation that just 4 or 6 fire lap shots with 260 grit can cut groups in half in a newish barrel. jb y other super fine polishes will not remove significant burrs.

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 13 December 2013

frnkeore wrote: I don't understand on the last two, how you don't have land marks @ 2.230 and then load out .064 to 2.294 and get .160 of land marking?

Frank

My mistake-2.023", not 2.230". I can't edit my post?

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joeb33050 posted this 14 December 2013

Ken Campbell, Iowa wrote: re: throat wear ... i believe that new chambering jobs leave little burrs in the throat, which are rapidly burnt or wore off during early firing ... ( a good reason for lapping or fire lapping ) .

this would result in rapid advancement in seating length-to-stop, at first.  advancement should slow down  later.

it probably also explains my observation that just 4 or 6 fire lap shots with 260 grit can cut groups in half in a newish barrel. jb y other super fine polishes will not remove significant burrs.

ken SAAMI says the 223 case is 1.760” long and the chamber has ?.015” throat.. Measuring, and it ain't easy, it looks like the lands start to engrave the nose on these bullets at 1.960” or 1.970", somewhere in there. If I got this right, there's ~.200” ahead of the case mouth that's bigger than ~.2006". I think that that's more than burrs from chambering. I think.

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John Alexander posted this 14 December 2013

Joe, Have you had a chance to compare how the short rounds compare to the longer ones in accuracy?  My experience with the bullet, and others, was the longer the better. Why are you reluctant to extend the OAL as long as it doesn't debullet -- or even if it doesn't as long as the bullet isn't pushed back into the case a lot, if it produces a bit more accuracy. Assuming we are talking single loading here. John 

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joeb33050 posted this 14 December 2013

John Alexander wrote: Joe, Have you had a chance to compare how the short rounds compare to the longer ones in accuracy?  My experience with the bullet, and others, was the longer the better. Why are you reluctant to extend the OAL as long as it doesn't debullet -- or even if it doesn't as long as the bullet isn't pushed back into the case a lot, if it produces a bit more accuracy. Assuming we are talking single loading here. John  John;It's about the first band hitting something, getting squoze, and de-bulleting when the ctg is removed. The nose doesn't engrave before the first band hits. t wasn't easy getting that sample, other bullets backed into the case. The first band is the stopper on most of my '299s. I don't think I have had a case where the nose engraving ttightness caused de-bulleting-it's ?always? the first or second band. 

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joeb33050 posted this 15 December 2013

The 225646 mold was modified by Eric O. at the Hollowpoint mold service. He took out the 2 front grease grooves and enlarged their positions to ~.221” My OAL is 2.253", where the front band/taper-see the arrows-is mashed into something, thre is some nose/nose band engraving, and it takes a bit of force to close the bolt and the ctg doesn't de-bullet. Hope to shoot Wed.

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Paul Pollard posted this 16 December 2013

John Alexander wrote: joeb33050 wrote: If throats wear that fast, I'm wondering if a bore ride nose shouldn't be tapered. My 30 cal bullets are seated out further as throat wears, but no as much/quickly as the 22s. Joe, I was just thinking the same thing after remembering that I have seen the noses engraved more on the front than the rear. I was going to post something to for people interested in designing a 22 bullet that works. Maybe you and Frank are right and I am wrong in the discussion we have been having under 225299.  It wouldn't be the first time. JohnYou guys got me wondering. This is not a .22 caliber. I took my MX2-243 Eagan (bore ride) bullet and sized it .237 all the way down to the base. The nose is .237 normally after polishing it out. This fit snug in the muzzle. However, when I pushed this bullet into the breach end, the base of the bullet would be 1.210 inches from the case mouth. (ahead of the case mouth). Does all this looseness in the breach area contribute to accuracy problems? Should I polish out the the nose some more. Further measuring looks like it will need to be .238 to .2385 on the nose section.  And I thought it was a loose fit when the nose was .235!

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