Why do we shoot 10 shot groups?

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  • Last Post 18 August 2023
Seattle slug posted this 27 July 2023

Lack of time seems to be a problem with matches.  What is the feeling of t the shooters to do away with 10 shot group shooting.

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Lucky1 posted this 27 July 2023

I always felt it was the 4 times shooting 5 shot groups that consumed the most time and tilts the results at Nationals to the best group shooter when the points are tabulated.

Scott Ingle

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MarkinEllensburg posted this 27 July 2023

 IMHO lack of time has not seemed to be a problem in the matches I have attended. Granted that clubs may want to limit the closing of their range for less time to accommodate a match of a miniscule percentage of their membership and guests. Match directors are given the ability to only include match elements that they have time or the facility to conduct; group size, score, and distances of each.

First it seems that 5 shot and 10 shot groups is just the way it has always been done. I believe to change that would require some rather convincing well thought out proposal. 

Good 5 shot groups happen, they can be a fluke. Good 10 shot groups have a much higher likely hood of proving both the shooter's and the bullet/load of being accurate. Most shooters do not come close to established records. Either and both group size provide for a good competitive match. 

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45 2.1 posted this 27 July 2023

If you think the current modern rules are too much, you really need to investigate the rules and shooting course that the Scheutzen shooters used. You will be surprised.

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pat i. posted this 27 July 2023

If my memory serves me, which there's a good chance it doesn't, you shoot 2 ten shot groups with a time limit of 15 minutes each or four 5 shot groups with a time limit of 10 minutes each so in actuality the 10 shot groups are 30 minutes compared to 40 for the 5 shot match. When I was director of competition I don't think I recall a club shooting both matches at anything besides a regional or the nationals but it was a while ago so I could be wrong.

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Bryan Austin posted this 27 July 2023

I think it should be just the first shot, winner takes all

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John Carlson posted this 27 July 2023

There are numerous combinations used.  Some ranges only have 100 yard capability so they may shoot a combination of groups and scores.  Ranges with both 100 and 200 yard targets may fire 2 score matches at each range one month, 10 shot or 5 shot groups another month.  AFAIK shooting 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups, and score pretty much only happens at the nationals and maybe some regionals. 

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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muley posted this 28 July 2023

every one has the same oportunity to shoot good groups. we usually gather at a shoot to relax and talk with our friends. we come together to enjoy the time with friends. some day we may win ??

 

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shootingblanks00 posted this 28 July 2023

Prolly cuz some of us only have 10 fingers and it's too much trouble to take off the shoes to be able to count to 20.  lol

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Bud Hyett posted this 28 July 2023

Note: You must add time for two more target changes for the five-shot group. This considerably lengthens the overall time.

My strategy for a match with all three targets:

·         Five shot groups allow getting a good zero and beginning wind flag reading for the day. The wind is usually down, and you can see which flags are influencing your target. After each target, the scope is moved for a better center when needed.

·        Ten shot groups confirm the zero and allow reading the changing wind conditions. The morning has warmed up, possibly adding mirage to see and adjust for.

·         Score targets now have confidence in the zero and reading the wind flags. Now comes the fight to read the changing wind as the wind velocity increases and switches.

Ten-shot groups are appreciated by me for the above strategy.  They are a measure of wind and mirage reading in the current format. They are also the measure of the ability of the shooter to gauge wind. Often the wind switching really begins at this stage.

Thoughts:

For a two-day match with five-shot, ten-shot, and score, I take three hundred rounds. This is to use the sighter target to the fullest. This was a bitter lesson at my first National match when I only took 240 rounds and was assigning sighter and record rounds the second day.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Tom Acheson posted this 31 July 2023

Not wanting to drag this out but and not an answer to the OP’s question but….

Our local clubs normally shoot only @100-yards. We bounce back and forth between (2) 10-round groups or (4) 5-round groups. This is followed by (4) 5-round score targets. Time consumed by the match is never a constraint. Most shooters are retired. They don’t have to get back to work, catch a bus or meet someone somewhere. AND as noted earlier, these CBA matches are almost as much social get togethers as they are matches. 

At one of our Regional matches (mimicking the National Tournament) as we finished the (4) 5-round group targets and were getting ready to do the (2) 10-round group targets, one of the shooters asked why we did the two different size groups? Someone answered….”anyone can shoot a good 5-round group but when doing a 10-round, you have (5) additional chances to mess up a group.”

Personally, I prefer group shooting over score shooting. Groups tell you more about your load, your wind reading and yourself than score shooting. And score shooting can be more difficult than group shooting. For every score shot, you have to adjust the front rest to get lined-up on each bull. That moving around between shots is a distraction and introduces a greater chance for screwing up your bench technique. Those shooters who master this 10-minutes of activity are the ones who produce good scores.

Tom

 

 

 

 

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Shuz posted this 01 August 2023

A way to reduce the time involved at local matches is to post 2/ea targets on the board at a time. For score shooting, shoot 2 shots at each bull. Some clubs are doing just this.

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dbarron posted this 01 August 2023

Ten shot groups separate the good from the lucky. And heaven help those of us who are neither. I’ve never thought of matches being too long, only too short.

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 August 2023

True, some clubs do shoot (2) rounds per bull on the score target. Sometimes this could be because of approaching rain storms or maybe to reduce the # of trips downrange by the target crew. Keep in mind that if someone is having a really good day with score, should a National Record develop, the (2) shots per bull will disqualify the targets. There is a way to handle that, which would slow the match down, if time was the pressing issue for the (2) hits approach.

I’ve been scoring CBA Postal targets for quite a few years and in that game, we use (2) hits per bull. 

The concern with (2) hits per bull is the situation where it is difficult to CLEARLY identify (2) bullet holes next to or on top of each other. I’ve seen this situation several times over the years with Postal targets.

At our local CBA matches, I’ve lengthened them by having a .22 rimfire rifle fun match before the “real” match. Any rifle, only two categories, scope or iron sights. 100-yards off the bench in 15-minutes. It has became quite popular. I told the guys this reminds me of politicians….they have a lot to say and want to hear it all. For us gun guys, some of us have a lot of guns and want to shoot them all.

Tom

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MarkinEllensburg posted this 02 August 2023

Tom is completely right. the rule is:

6.1.2 For all score targets in the National Tournament and all targets submitted for scoring as possible national records, only one shot per bullseye is allowed. In regional or local matches either one or multiple shots per bullseye are allowed at the discretion of the match director. However, even if multiple shots are fired on each bullseye, a score aggregate must be fired as four separate 5 shot matches and each match must use the proper time required by Article 7.1 and consist of one shot fired on each of the five bullseye during each time period. If a shooter shoots a score in the first 5 shot match that makes it mathematically 8 possible to break the aggregate score record at that distance or 100/200 yard combined aggregate score record (if both distances are to be shot at the shoot or tournament involved) by firing a record breaking score in the remaining three or seven matches, he may shoot the following matches firing one shot per bullseye on three to seven separate target cards while the other shooters are firing multiple shots per bullseye during the same three to seven remaining time periods. 

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Sevenfan posted this 17 August 2023

Ten shot groups separate the good from the lucky. And heaven help those of us who are neither.

I resemble those comments! We'll see Saturday, but don't expect any improvement on hero or zero in group or score mode.

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Tom Acheson posted this 17 August 2023

The OP’s initial question…

Lack of time seems to be a problem with matches.  What is the feeling of t the shooters to do away with 10 shot group shooting.

Absolutely not….lack of time is not a problem! Looking around and knowing the shooting crowd at all of our matches, 4 clubs, EVERYONE is retired! No sneaking away from work and back to squeeze in a match, no bus to catch, no PTA meeting, no doctor appointment, etc. Time is NOT a concern. So if the 10-round groups are dropped, what’s left? Just score? Speaking of time, that is too short considering the loading time, load development, driving time, etc.  Or replace (2) 10-round groups with (4) 5-round groups? That sequence takes longer!

But the shooter experience of trying to develop a good 10-round group is paramount. That’s where one of the primary challenges resides for a shooter, why remove it? Not every match involves both 5 and 10-round groups.

Lastly don’t overlook the social aspects of a match. Reduce match time and you lose time with friends.

FWIW

Tom

 

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Millelacs posted this 18 August 2023

I whole heatedly agree with everything Tom said.

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