Smokeless Powder Small Bore Paper Patched Bullets

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  • Last Post 18 March 2023
Idahocaster posted this 12 March 2023

I read the article on 45-70 paper patched bullets in the most recent Fouling Shot with great interest. I've always been fascinated by the concept of the paper patched bullet. Unfortunately I do not have a black powder cartridge rifle to work with. I have tried several different approaches with a 30-30, but I have never been able to get it to work successfully. My paper patched 30-30 loads don't group, they pattern. In the past I have suffered from velocity worship, and may have been pushing them too hard. I am a little older and quite a bit wiser now and I can appreciate a quieter, lower recoil, and more importantly more accurate sedate velocity. Has anyone had success with smokeless, small bore (30 caliber or close to it) paper patched bullets? I would love to here your approach if you have.

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foesgth posted this 18 March 2023

You can get a scanned copy of the NRA book here.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/CastBullets-s.pdf

I hope I am not setting up Ed Harris to lose money with this link.  The book is out of publication.

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Idahocaster posted this 18 March 2023

Thanks everyone for your recommendations and tips! I will try again this summer and see if I can have some success with paper patched bullets this year. Is like to find a load that works for my rifle.

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barra posted this 18 March 2023

if they don’t group could be a couple of things.

core too large dia : it needs to run and ride the lands , not engrave into it.

patch overlapping the ends are no good. But a small gap is fine.

patch diameter too small and blow by and not filling the grooves.

Lube has softened patch into moosh.

pp’d needs to sitting into the lands on chambering.

Try wet patching and wrapping with the twist so patch tightens and not undoes through it’s travel.

barrel needs to be clean of lead and copper.

‘With a rough bore you can use some cow to form a plug and clean as you go.

good luck with it.

 

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beemer posted this 15 March 2023

I haven't done any PP in a while but here it is. I used a CTL312-160- 2R with a GC in a 30-06. I sized the bullet to .308 and patched with .0015 tracing paper with two wraps. Lubed lightly with LLA and sized to .309. A mid range charges of W760 was used. Had no trouble doing 2 moa and after tinkering a bit better. The rifle is a nice sporterized 03A3 with almost a new barrel. 

I started to tell how I did it but just read the post by 45 2.1, couldn't have said it any better.The paper turned into confetti after leaving the bore, you don't want the PP to stick to the bullet. I think the tapered throat is a help with PP bullets. Most of what I shot was cast with WW. You can play with different thickness paper and bullet sizes to find desired dia.

 

I worked some with a Russian 91/30. The Lee C312-185-1R  bullet  was used, sized to .308 and wrapped to .314 and lubed lightly with LLA. With a load of 40 grs of AA4064 it shot better than military ball at 2 1/2-3 inches at 100.

With above load vel. was

185 gr PP bullet   2290 fps

180 gr Speer       2140 fps

It is time consuming but can give good results. If you spend all your time PP'ing you will not shoot as much, saves primers.

Dave

 

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RicinYakima posted this 13 March 2023

Oh! I had throated the H&R with a 1 1/2 degree throating reamer to seat about half the bullet into the throat. Sorry, forgot. 

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delmarskid posted this 12 March 2023

Dress patterns make good patch material. It rolls nice and is tough.

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Fitzpatrick posted this 12 March 2023

you will probably want to give your rifle a bit of throat most 30-30's don't have the throat needed for paper patching , It still can be done but you will have to load the round gently and not have much of the patch out of the case.

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Idahocaster posted this 12 March 2023

I have a mold that drops 0.301 smooth sided bullets about 165 grains. I tried several different kinds of paper, lube and no lube, twisted tail that is cut off and folded base. Maybe it's time to try again and see if I get different results. Insanity? Maybe, but at least I get to shoot more this way!

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Idahocaster posted this 12 March 2023

I used a Savage 340 bolt action 30-30 for my paper patch experiments. It has a 22 inch barrel with standard rifling.

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RicinYakima posted this 12 March 2023

When I was doing the PP thing, it didn't take me long to realize it was not a road to small and consistent groups. HOWEVER, makes great hunting bullets. A .30 caliber 50/1 PP bullet goes in one side of the coyote small and comes out the other side at least .50 caliber. Always found it was so effective out of a 30/30 Handi-Rifle at anything over 1750 f/s.

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.22-10-45 posted this 12 March 2023

Several years ago, after finally being able to equal best jacketed match bullet accuracy with a cast bullet at 100yds. with my .22 Hornet, I decided to try paper patching.  I had Tom Ballard make a nose-pour adjustable paper-patch mold with a shallow concave base.  Bullet was sized right at bore dia up to.002" over.  I spent 2 1/2 shooting seasons shooting nothing but paper-patch bullets.  Here is what I learned:  bullet aloy is important  you must match alloy strength to barrel pressure.  Accuracy was non existent or at least very inconsistant until charges were well up into..and sometimes at maximum jacketed bullet loads.  I believe bullet obturation into the grooves is the reason.  Teflon tape was tried and groups were sometimes as small as 3/8"...However, if there was a flier...you hab beer stop and run a patch thru.  Usually a very tiny fleck of lead would show up on patch..this was cause of flier..a torn patch..if ignored and another round fired..a bore full of lead.  That is why I gave up on Teflon..though velocity was right up there with max jacket loads..if hunting..you would never be able to detect that flier..and patch destroying speck of lead.  I finally gave up on patched due to fliers..no mater the patching material, or how careful I was loading, there were always more uncounted fliers that with grease-groove.  I believe this was the same reason match rifle shooters of the late 19th century gave up on patched bullets...unless that patch leaves the bullet at precisely the same instant as it's fellows...there Will be off shots.   One thing I did find out...when I ordered that Chrome-Moly Shillen barell...I paid extra for hand lapping.  I thought it was smooth.  It usually took 4 or 6 solvent wet patches before one came out clean.  Now 1st. patch is black..2nd comes out same as it went in.  Best of luck!.

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RicinYakima posted this 12 March 2023

Col Harrison's article on PPing 30 cal bullets is in the NRA Cast Bullet Supplement.  

LMG

I received Col Harrison's first PP .30 caliber mould from Ken Mollohan. It is simple marked "30 NRA". Casts about .301" from 50/1 and weights 165 grains. 

If someone really has the hots to play with this one, I will lend you the mould. 

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45 2.1 posted this 12 March 2023

What you need to know that hasn't been said:

1. Cast your bullets relatively soft, no harder than 8 BHN

2. Size the bullet lightly lubed, in a push thru sizer to about 0.001" over bore diameter.

3. Find some onionskin typing paper.... (this is 0.002" thick and two wraps give you an increase of 0.075" over the sized bullet diameter. This is about throat diameter or just slightly less)

4. Follow standard patching directions, patch over ogive so no part of the bullet will touch the bore and twist the tail firmly, cut off most of the tail when slightly damp.

5. Lube the patch with Matthew's patch lube formula.

6. Load in a neck expanded and flared case.

7. The most important part: Load the patched bullet so it firmly seats in the rifling and dirties the patch with land marks. No jumping to the rifling as that will give you inaccuracy.... firm contact only.

These directions are meant to give full velocity loads. If you need anything else, just ask.

 

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Larry Gibson posted this 12 March 2023

I've PP'd 314299s for use in M98 8x57s with a bit of success equaling the accuracy or the 323471 lubed bullet.  Loaded them over 4895 with dacron filler upwards of 2200 fps.  Just never really got into PPing that much. 

LMG 

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 12 March 2023

Col Harrison's article on PPing 30 cal bullets is in the NRA Cast Bullet Supplement.  

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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John Alexander posted this 12 March 2023

Col. Harrison reported on pp 30 cal. bullets back in the 1950s and 1960s. As I remember ??? he achieved good accuracy at near jacketed velocities. It was reported in the American Rifleman back when it was a gun magazine instead of a political magazine.  My books are temporarily in boxes so I can't be more specific.

John

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Fitzpatrick posted this 12 March 2023

with my old fingers 7mm 0-8 is as small as i paper patch, you can push them a bit faster than lubed bullets but I have found around 1800 fps. seems to be where I find my best accuracy . For me paper patching allows me to use soft lead so for hunting I get a good expanding bullet with no leading, After patching the bullet I use White label 45-10-45 with powder graphite for lube and water proofing  I can carry a few loose cases in my shirt pocket and not worry about the patch being compromised . There's a book written by Paul Mathews on the paper patch that is a very good starting place.

 

  James

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Aaron posted this 12 March 2023

What brand of 30-30 are you attempting this with?

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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