Shooting Results?

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Wm Cook posted this 26 June 2025

Here are the categories that I keep. Its been tweaked over the years but I've using this for decades.

The minimum I'd suggest would be the following

Here are my records for the .308 I've been working on the past three years. Internal ballistics and how powder burns, how it reacts to bullet weight is fascinating to me.

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pat i posted this 26 June 2025

Good Lord Bill!!! I didn't expect that much imformation when I started this thread. What kind of "Shop" do you have where you're able to test for velocities? Mine is my garage across from a school and one test like that would land me in the local lockup waiting on the next bus with a one way ticket to the penitentiary. I'd love to be your neighbor.

I see you like those heavy bullets. As an experiment sometine load up something like the RCBS 165 Sil bullet with around 28 grains of 135 or Varget and see what it does. I don't know if your barrel is throated but if has a 1 1/2 included throat and wasn't throated long for those longer bullets the 165 sil will be a real nice fit without doing anything to it. Also I see a lot of your size list saying .308. If so I'd go a bit bigger like .310 or so.

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Wm Cook posted this 27 June 2025

The shop work was when I was living out in the country and thanks for the tips. I'm sure I'm on the spectrum of some sort of malady or another. But keeping data is the only way for me to look back and see what worked. Example, take something like recording wind direction and velocity. An aggregate of a number of 1.250" group shot in multiple conditions impresses me way more than a few .750 group shot in the calm. Without recording the wind I could be looking at 3 month old sub 1 MOA targets and be convinced that the load will work in competition. Even though that same load also had some 2 inch plus groups. Tunnel vision, right? I have to keep going back and repeating what looks like a decent load in a variety of conditions before I can have some confidence in it.

Maybe its my old age, but if it weren't for keeping numbers there's no way I could keep track of what worked and what didn't work. I have an unfair advantage in that I was using spreadsheets before Excel was Excel. I'm not inferring that keeping a record of what you did will translate into smaller groups. Most have the intuitive ability to load and shoot groups by the seat of their pants. I just have to work a little harder to keep up.

I think the same could be said for casting. I'd be lost if it wasn't for data collection and notes regarding alloy, temperatures and cadence. At last count the .308 has nine molds to work with. Yep, it was a long learning curve. Casting was a lot easier when I accepted what ever accuracy the Lyman manual told me to load. I only heard about cast benchrest in '22. But again, I'm sure most casters don't need this crutch. And once again, I have to work harder than most just to come close to keeping up. Great thread, thanks for starting it. Bill.

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pat i posted this 27 June 2025

I tried keeping records of what I was doing once. That lasted for about 2 minutes. If I ever got back into shooting HVY rifles I'd have to beg borrow or steal old FS magazines to see what I was using. I shot a lot of different cartridges and bullets so it'd be a chore. Doing what you're doing would give me information overload but I give you a lot of credit for being so organized and doing it.

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Duke_M posted this 27 June 2025

Ok, from a long time lurker and avid caster/shooter. Similar WmCook above I keep a spreadsheet with load data, dates and which rifle. I shoot mostly 30 cal and am exploring getting into 22 cal. I have had lots of failures and varying degrees of success. Latest success has been in plain base 30 cal with a NOE 310-172fn. While I try to be a purist using luben I'll PC when all else fails. This time is definately was a positive result. M700 SPS Varmint 308 win, 172fn (175gr) bhn is about 9 with Eastwood clear PC sized .309. Just used in Spokane match and finished a 60 round match with a s7b MOA average. 5 shot agg=0.859" and 10 shot agg=1.00". Here is my mistake which may be part of the success. Dummy round was tested long on purpose and chartered firmly with good land markings. This was done in my 80 degree shop. Now on match morning it was about 45-50 degrees and they were cheering a little extra firmn resulting in the need to tap the bolt with a rubber mallet to close the bolt. Now to retest with shoulder oal and see if accuracy holds.

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pat i posted this 27 June 2025

Mike those are pretty impressive 100 yard aggs with your plain base. Looking forward to seeing the report posted in the match results section online so I can see what you were using. But a little preview here wouldn't hurt.

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Duke_M posted this 27 June 2025

The match results will be sent in to Paul this weekend when i have a break from work. My apologies on the previous post, autocorrect on my phone is a PITA.

Load: R-P 308 brass, 1/8 flash hole, 309 expander, NOE 310-172fn size .310, weight 175 gr, alloy 97-1.5-1.5 or 9-10 bhn, FED 150 LPP, OAL 2.861 with 10.5 gr Blue Dot for about 1375 fps.

Was using a harder alloy of 12-12 bhn and it was not near as consistent.

Mike

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pat i posted this 27 June 2025

Great shooting. That one .625 10 shot group is fantastic and the other one is nothing to sneeze at either. You're way ahead of me with these plain base bullets. Keep us informed on your progress. I might have to try some LP primers. I think that's the same bullet I'm using at the moment. Are you tapering it at all?

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Wm Cook posted this 27 June 2025

Great shooting. By saying that you used a “ 1/8 flash hole”, am I right in understanding that you drilled out your flash hole?

“ Dummy round was tested long on purpose and chartered firmly with good land markings.” I was wondering if you were using FL sizing dies or if you were using a bushing sizing die”. Bill.

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Duke_M posted this 27 June 2025

Yes, I find it helps with case shortening when using loads composed of Bullseye or similar fast powders. At least in my 308 is does.

Mike

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Wm Cook posted this 27 June 2025

Mike was that response to tapering, flash hole diameter or bushing die? Thanks for sharing.

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pat i posted this 27 June 2025

Yes, I find it helps with case shortening when using loads composed of Bullseye or similar fast powders. At least in my 308 is does.

Mike

Are you finding any accuracy difference with drilled vs nondrilled with the Blue Dot?

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Duke_M posted this 27 June 2025

Wm Cook, sorry my ADHD must have kicked in. I was responding to the flash hole size. I have not tried tapering yet, need to make a taper die and have not made time yet. I just use a neck size die followed by a NOE expander, i keep finding other things to buy (molds) rather than a bushing die.

Pat, I did notice a difference when using bullseye or similar, velocities were more consistent, was getting single digit SD's. I switched to Blue Dot because when trying different powers, groups were shrinking slightly with slower powders. I admit I have not compared Blue Dot with drilled or std flash hole yet. #9, 4227 and maybe 4100 are next on my list to try along with many other PB molds.

Mike

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muley posted this 27 June 2025

I wish u boys would take it easy. now I have to start to use PB in my old JC HIGGINS 30-06. am I going to similar results in the "06 with the longer case than the shorter 308? good shooting Duke.

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MarkinEllensburg posted this 27 June 2025

Good records are priceless. I just happened to look up my results from when I started competing and the tech data that went along with it. I was actually looking for something else but since I was there. My first three matches at Kenmore were my best. Due to endless experimentation, likely outside of matches, I changed my bullet, lube, and lube method. My results fell off. Somehow I missed the connection. Clear and detailed records might have shown me the trend much sooner.

Time to experiment back to what I started with, wheelweights, tumble lubed and seated deeper in the cases. .30BR however I think the throat erosion is too much. Gives me another thing to try in my hunter rifle.

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pat i posted this 27 June 2025

I wish u boys would take it easy. now I have to start to use PB in my old JC HIGGINS 30-06. am I going to similar results in the "06 with the longer case than the shorter 308? good shooting Duke.

I don't even own a 308 so all my messing around has been with a 30/06. It'll do alright now and then. IMHO the .090 long ball seat and shorter case definitely gives the advantage to the 308 but the 06 is no slouch. Just accept it for what it is and don't expect miracles. Anyone expecting tiny little groups with no flyers would be advised to stay away from PB bullets in fixed cartridges. In fact I'd go so far as to say stay away from cast bullets altogether and go pick up a 6PPC and some quality jacketed bullets.

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pat i posted this 27 June 2025

Pat, I did notice a difference when using bullseye or similar, velocities were more consistent, was getting single digit SD's. I switched to Blue Dot because when trying different powers, groups were shrinking slightly with slower powders. I admit I have not compared Blue Dot with drilled or std flash hole yet. #9, 4227 and maybe 4100 are next on my list to try along with many other PB molds.

Mike

Tomorrow's supposed to be a bluebird day with no wind for a change so I'm going to get to the range. I drilled the flash hole on 5 cases with a #31 drill bit and threw some LR primers in the box to do some comparison shooting. I'll let you know what I find out, if anything.

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Aaron posted this 27 June 2025

Not your expected shooting results story but here goes anyway. Decided to fire off some test cartridges I made up for the 1853 3-Band Enfield Rifled Musket today. As some of you may know it has been excessively HOT here in NC and the rest of the SE part of the country. At 10:00 AM it was 98 degrees with 89% humidity. Walking outside became a sweat bath immediately. I set the rifle outside in the shade to warm the barrel and aid in bullet seating. The English perfected paper cartridges for this rifle with the final variant fielded in 1861. The cartridges were (are) known as the 1853 English Cartridges even though improvements were made until 1861.

The final variant cartridge looks like this

I have been experimenting with differing thicknesses of paper and differing bullet diameters. Experimenting is really not the word to use since I have been more of using what was on-hand rather then what should be used to make a perfect cartridge.

My test cartridges look like these

One can readily see I have multiple types and thicknesses of papers in there. Surprisingly, these all fes into the muzzle with relative ease today. None had to be forced or rammed in the barrel. All fell to the breech with ease with no more than the weight of the loading rod on top of them. The heat of the barrel assisted by melting the lubricant almost at once and providing a greased venue for the wrapped bullets.

After firing, I collected up the torn-off powder chambers. You can readily see my notations on the chambers with regard to bullet diameter, paper type, paper thickness, powder charge, and other variables.

Today for the first time in my black powder shooting career, I dry-holed a bullet. Fortunately I could add some powder after removing the nipple and tapping some powder in there. I fired the bullet out which went all of 10 feet. A shot of compressed air would have shot it out as well since there is a lot of windage relatively speaking.

Target data at 50 yards was pitiful. The sweat was running down into my eyes preventing proper sight alignment and sight picture. Analysis showed an embarrassing 4' group of 14 shots. The glare off the sights was horrendous as well. I had to maintain the shooting position to keep a safe backstop. Grouping was not that important anyway. Ease of loading was the test and ensuring the paper wrapping encapsulated the bullet throughout its journey down a narrow tube with hellfire behind it.

I had to stop shooting after 14 cartridges due to the gun getting too hot to handle. I mean hotter than hell. I mean burn you hot. It was still a lot of fun and the rifle has had some serious break-in today. I lavished it with sweat both on the stock and on the metal. Black powder residue was all over it baptizing the beforehand glistening wood and steel. Confederate lube was everywhere, staining both wood and metal. Heat waves were shimmering off the barrel while trying to see down it with sweat balls in my eyes making explosions of color with the drops generating a color spectrum more vivid than an LSD induced realm.

Cleaning the rifle was a snap since the paper cartridges, embellished with lubricant, prevent gross powder residue from accumulating. Four or five patches, wet with a Ballistol/Water mixture, did the job. A wipe down of the exterior completed the job. I'll let her sit through the night and follow up with a few more patches tomorrow.

All-in-all, a rather fun experience. I do wonder how they did all this on a battlefield in the summer between 1861 and 1865.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Wm Cook posted this 28 June 2025

My first thought was that the thread was slipping away from what Pat originally was looking for, but after thinking about it maybe not.

Data collection gives me an information bank that lets me go deeper into rabbit holes and still be able to find our way out. And for many shooters/casters, experimenting like Mike did adds to the fun. This isn't in everyone's wheel house, and I respect that. As I said earlier, most of you have intuitive knowledge where people like me have to work hard just to keep you in sight. But heck, how often have you heard of a seldom used powder like Blue Dot shooting a 1" group in competition. You can't stray off the beaten path too far when you're tinkering with enlarged flash holes and uncommon powders without a way to record what and how you did.

So in my humble opinion, keeping records keeps you between the dotted lines with the load you're using today +/- three months and allows you to look back on the history to see if everything is still copacetic.

Regarding flash hole diameters. I looked at velocity and standard deviation with flash holes of .079, .125 and .140 and some common powders for heavy bullets and the .308. I found that the .140 flash hole shot more efficiently and consistently than the .079 across the board. Next best was the .125 flash hole. If an when my life returns to normal I will give larger flash holes a try. Heck it only cost 10 pieces of brass and spending some time handloading while you're at the range. Sorry for bloviating. Bill.

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pat i posted this 29 June 2025

Great report Aaron. Those cartridges you made look real nice. Waiting to see when you get serious with the gun.

I went out to the range today. It was one of those days where everything that could go wrong did. I dropped everything I touched and shot horrible. That along with dumping three loads of powder in the Winchester action made it a perfect day. I had a heck of a time chambering anything after that even after I cleaned it up the best I could. It took an air compressor at home to get it back to normal. A can of compressed air is on my "to buy" list. I did try a few cases with the flash hole drilled with a #31 (.120) drill bit and didn't see anything too exciting. I'll give it a better test when I get a day where I don't have 10 thumbs.

One thing I found is that I'm way past the point of using iron sights no matter how hard I try to convince myself otherwise. l was shooting my Nagant M44 for the first time. I should say I was pointing it in the general direction. With cheaters the sights were clear and the target a total blur. Without them the target was clear as a bell but the gun might as well of had no sights at all. I guess if I want to shoot this thing I'm going to have to get some kind of base and scope it. A totally wasted and aggravating day. But at least I had the range to myself and didn't have to stop every second string so some guy could run down and check his target.

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