Sharps 40-70

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  • Last Post 07 March 2021
gilly562 posted this 05 March 2021

Hi,

Newbie here.

Just acquired a Shiloh Sharps in 40-70 necked made in 1995. I know, ‘what the heck did you buy that for?’ Well, I’ve been wanting to get into BPC shooting and really wanted a Shiloh (if you buy the best you’ll never be disappointed). Beautiful rifle, gorgeous wood and color case hardening. It also has one of my favorite things, a schnabel front grip. I love der schnabel. Maybe started with my dad’s Savage 22LR which I have. (still VERY accurate). This came with 200 brass formed from 45-70 govt which surprised me. All the resources I’ve looked at say to start with 45 basic. Also included a good bit of lead bullets. Brass and bullets came from the prior owner, not the one I purchased from. These bullets as is are unusable. They’re so long that  if inserted into the brass so the last grease groove is inside the mouth, the base of the bullet is down past the upper point of the neck.

So I need casting advice to get started. Specifically, recommendations on sources for molds. Sorry for droning on, new toy.

Thanks, Tom

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RicinYakima posted this 05 March 2021

Well, that is not how you determine how deep to seat the bullet. Grease grooves are suppose to be outside the case mouth.

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ten-mile posted this 05 March 2021

First of all, if someone asks how to do something you should explain how you do it even if your method is wrong.  Second, when you do write something, look it over to see if it makes sense.  The OP asked for help, not criticism.

The Shiloh forum and the ASSRA forum would likely be a better source for the help asked for.

I have two 40-70 B.N. rifles, an original Remington #1 Sporting Rifle and an original Hepburn.  They do require a 45-90 case for forming brass in order to end up with a 2.25" case.  The Shiloh chamber was made especially for using the shorter 45-70 case.  I think they also use a 0.408" groove dia. barrel.  RCBS and Saeco each have two moulds that may be suitable and Lyman has a few also.  To choose it would be helpful to know the bore and groove diameter.

I have several moulds that may work so if the OP would send me a PM I would be pleased to send him some bullets to try.

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Squid Boy posted this 05 March 2021

Tom, I am not shooting a 40-70 BN but a straight and I seat the bullet to touch the rifling with what ever one I am using. Then add BP to fill, shook down and a card wad to make the base of the bullet. I use very little compression. There are a lot of good bullets out there. Guys here can help. Good luck with it. Squid Boy

"Squid Pro Quo"

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RicinYakima posted this 05 March 2021

Ten-Mile, My only excuse is that it was late at night and I didn't put my usual second paragraph in my response. My Bad!

"Our search button is hard to find, as it is in the right column almost at the bottom. Doing a "seating depth" or "OAL" will get you threads on the forum. Most loading manuals have a section on seating depth, but the Lyman Cast Bullet Hand Book, 4th edition, has a good section for BPCR."

gilley562, Sorry, I didn't mean to be critical, just didn't get it all written before I pushed "Add Post". Ric

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Lee Guthrie posted this 05 March 2021

My recommendation may be useless, because it pertains to 40-65.  Both these moulds shoot quite nicely in my 1885 High Wall, especially the Snover design.  Lyman  410660  385gr  SP  PB and Lyman 410663 400gr   Snover   Both of these are plain base and I use SPG lube;  compressed charge of FF over 6-7 gr IMR 4227; card over powder wad; one or two grease cookies of SPG.  I seat cast bullets to just short of (if not actually kissing)  the rifling.   Grease grooves will be exposed, which is not a problem unless you carry a handful loose in your pocket.  If you do not want exposed grease grooves get a paper patch mould, such as my RCBS  410-500  500gr  Paper Patch  HB.  Since my all thumbs patching ability sucks I have not had good luck with that mould.

 

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kootne posted this 05 March 2021

There are 3 variations of that case that Shiloh has used.

1. The original, has a 2.25 case

2. One with a 45-70 case run into a die for the original resulting in a case with original powder capacity but a short neck. I had one of these, marked "Caliber 40  2-1/10"

3. One made with a 45-70 case run into a shortened die resulting in a reduced powder capacity but a neck with the same length as the original. SPG reloading manual attributes this variation to Dan Phariss and calls it "40-70 Government" I do not know how caliber markings are on these.

The first 2 can be loaded with 40-70 2-1/4 SBN dies, the third will require a special die or possibly could cut .150" off the bottom of a 40-70 SBN sizing die or  maybe use 40-50 SBN die and fiddle with the depth till it is right.

I didn't use factory dies, they were a lot of $ then, probably worse now. I did have 40-65 dies and figured out that I could make a light load of Unique and a .41 lead pistol bullet and a 40-65 would fireform perfectly in the rifle. Don't at this point remember all the details of neck sizing, expanding and seating but generic neck size and "M" dies are available.

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45 2.1 posted this 06 March 2021

Hi,

 This came with 200 brass formed from 45-70 govt which surprised me. All the resources I’ve looked at say to start with 45 basic. Also included a good bit of lead bullets. Brass and bullets came from the prior owner,............

There was a fellow who posted on CB who developed dies and methodology to stretch 45-70 cases longer. He since has passed away, but Buffalo Arms did sell his apparatus for the case stretching. Maybe yours came from those dies.......................................

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gilly562 posted this 07 March 2021

Thanks Ric, no offense taken. I know all about late night posts. Regarding grease grooves I was repeating what a Shiloh tech said as I understood it. I should have said that I do know about proper headspacing but that would mean having 2 grease grooves outside the case and I didn’t think that was correct. I’m a newbie, as I said, so can be totally wrong. The dialogue is all part of the fun.

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gilly562 posted this 07 March 2021

Thanks everyone for the useful advice, really appreciate it.

So I now have to ascertain exactly what I have as there are at least 3 variations of the 40-70 SBN which I was not aware of. Already have a request in to Shiloh for specs on this rifle but I should do a breech casting to know exactly what’s in there (and the fun of pouring hot molten stuff into my rifle). Sounding like this is a 40-70 Govt developed by Dan Pharris at Shiloh. This allowed for 40-70 BN to be formed from 45-70 Govt as this was more available at the time. This makes sense of all the brass that came with it made from 45-70 Govt. Also, didn’t mention that it came with a set of RCBS 40-70 SBN 2.1 dies. I’m learning!

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