Practical or introductory class

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John Carlson posted this 24 September 2025

That's basically what we're doing up here with our Modern Sporting Rifle competition. Make up a set of local rules that suits a few of your shooters. Submit the results as unclassified entries. If it generates enough interest and spreads to other clubs it may warrant consideration as a new CBA Class. The concept of iron sights in traditional benchrest is novel.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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shootcast posted this 24 September 2025

We don’t have any local shooters. That’s why advertising this and generating interest might work.

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MarkinEllensburg posted this 25 September 2025

What exactly is stopping you from holding an unclassified match? I currently shoot in hunter class. At our local winter lever action match several shooters use scopes on lever guns and so can actually shoot in hunter class. Three of those is all it takes for a match to be official. Everyone else can be unclassified and shoot whatever YOU decide to promote.

If your aim is to suggest a new "pandemonium class" for anything goes new shooter or new match shooter or new CBA member match there is in place a procedure to submit a new class proposal. It's a three year commitment though.

Clubs already accommodate shooters that use whatever they have and enter as unclassified. At matches where I have seen this the shooters have a good time, sometimes they come back for another.

The vast majority of CBA members never seek out a local or farther match. There is a very small number that are willing and able to travel a hundred miles or more to attend a match. Former president John crosses the Cascade mountains to attend matches. I drive 2-3 hours for every match I shoot. How to attract new participants is a challenge.

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shootcast posted this 25 September 2025

You can’t hold a match without shooters. Our club has a nice but small total bench count of ten. Years back we filled the benches and often had two relays. Today we struggle to find three shooters. Our club has around a thousand members, give or take. As with most sportsman clubs trap seems to be the main interest. If we are to find new shooters they are more likely to come from outside of our club. The CBA has roughly two thousand members give or take. Judging from the listed clubs that hold sanction shoots we have probably two hundred shooters. What does the other eighteen hundred want to shoot ? There must be members within some reasonable driving distance of established clubs. Or members that might be interested in opening a new facility in there area. If they are new to this they probably don’t have Heavy class or Unrestricted class arms. The firearm they own may not be competitive in our classes. Some enjoy a less competitive form of shooting. We have classes because not all firearms are created equal. Otherwise we would only need two classes. Rifle and Pistol.

If there are any interested readers on our website I hope they chime in and start a discussion. Hopefully generating enough interest find people wanting to get into this type of shooting.

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tominct posted this 25 September 2025

There was a hunting rifle class that separated from the regular BR equipment matches that may still be running. I say may as I've not tried it since the 1st season, been low on the radar a few years also.

IIRC after that 1st season rule changes were made to allow more power on scopes, from 6x maximum, to whatever. Fine for BR shooting but got away from the 'hunting' category IMHO. Anyways not having the juice to buy a competitive scope I let it go on my end.

The bunny gun match has been a step towards field grade equipment, it would be nice to have the same for regular hunting rifles and carbines again.

As far as local matches there's is a dearth of attendance at many of them locally, excepting precision NRA matches and IPSC/IDPA type events. Lack of interest and low turnout do nothing for the club involved or for those who volunteer to run them.

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RicinYakima posted this 25 September 2025

Our club had NRA Bullseye, NRA High Powder, SASS, trap and two kinds of skeet, sporting clays and 22 Benchrest until about 2001. After 9/11 every thing went "tactical", high round counts and steel targets at very close range. Even Cowboy died out. Now the only thing that is left run and jump pistol at close plates and 3-gun tactical.

In the last 20 years three shooters was our highest count for benchrest. Trap shooters went to a private club and there are no skeet shoots. However, membership has doubled in the last 20 years even as cost has doubled. Just no interest in shooting a paper targets or precision shooting. Us old guys are mostly plinkers now, having fun, but no matches.

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Duke_M posted this 25 September 2025

Based on the comments above, I feel lucky that we get at least 8 at our Spokane matches (Mar-Nov), typically 10-12. I highly encourage new shooters to try as unclassified with what equipment they have with little luck and am not sure a new "class" will change that. Most of our shooters are PRO, HNT or Mil class.

The majority of our club is there for TRAP followed by smaller groups of F class, high power, small bore, BPCR, etc.

Mike

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Tom Acheson posted this 25 September 2025

Our club has (1500) members. Out of (13) BoD members, I’m the only one who shoots matches. We host NRA Bullseye and Olympic Free Pistol, CMP Military, USPSA Practical Pistol, an Annual Glock, NAFTA air rifle, sponsor (7) High School Trap teams, etc. We have a dedicated few that participate in CBA or Schuetzen matches. We have an inter-club Postal patterned after the CBA version.

With all those members, it’s odd that I can go out on a nice summer day to shoot and it’s only me and 2-3 others. We do have quite few ranges. For years I’ve concluded that some people just like being a member of something but don’t do anything. And I have tried promotional CBA recruiting with very lax tules but no bites.

A large population club is no assurance of new interest.

Tom

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muley posted this 26 September 2025

as quoted above, it may be time to bring the hunter class back to reality with the 9x max hunting scope. I can see tominct frustration with wanting to compete,but not having the expense of a high power scope. In every club there has to be someone to "take charge" of the program. When that happens most of the members are "followers" and will help where told. They don"t want the responsibility, because they are afraid they may fail.I know the frustration of competition, I have sometimes won, but many times have placed low on the score. I shoot to enjoy the friendships and to possible better myself.

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Tom Acheson posted this 26 September 2025

Good pount Muley….I’ve been running CBA matches my club since 1999. If there is one constant, it is this. The experience is as much social as shooting. The guys really enjoy talking guns, powders, primers, molds, best practices that vary all over the map, CBA rules….and of course shooting.

Someday we might even introduce food to “spruce” things up!

Tom

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shootcast posted this 26 September 2025

I believe muley made a good point. But we have to take charge as a unit. Not individual clubs. It is true that adding yet another class could very well fail. There is nothing in our by laws that stop us from uniting Nothing that stops us from organizing a non official class. But all clubs have to do the same thing. If each club differs then we are only shooting unclassified. Opening hunter class and others with either open sights or restricted scope magnification and shooting on military targets isn’t hurting any program we now have. It’s not official for National Tournament. Generating interest on our website from the people who visit it is the key. If there is commitment from our readers , organize a basic set of rules and all clubs follow these rules. We may only gain a few shooters from across the country . Talk is cheap and no one may show up at all. But if any of the suggested shoots gain popularity it is worth it. We need shooters. We don’t have any at a lot of clubs.

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Premod70 posted this 26 September 2025

Restrictions on scope power in Hunter class events ends up adding to the expense when a spotting scope is needed to read the target.

For my two cents the best matches being run today where the whole age spectrum is involved are the muzzleloading log matches in the Ohio valley. They use somewhat crude sights but most importantly they pay money back to the shooters. Put prizes or goods on the table and the participants increase as the rewards increase.

Not to kick dirt on the cast bullet game but a hunting rifle match that met the rules of our matches except for the allowance of modern jacketed 'soft points, non-match' bullets would open the field to true hunters wishing to get a little trigger time with old smokey. Include a factor for caliber to keep the BB guns from ruining the contest and let the shooting begin. That and mix it up with timed and other challenges to mimic hunting rather than just another bench rest match will keep the young folks interest up and fun as well.

The whole trick as I see it is to challenge the young folks and follow their lead always keeping safety first and foremost.

Dale Flinchum

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shootcast posted this 26 September 2025

The argument on the need for a spotting scope is what kept the rules as they are now. However a new shooter probably won’t have either. ( spotting or target ) Hunting class means different things to different people. Probably on where you live and hunt. A lot of time was spent as I remember questioning manufacturers what was the most often bought scope for hunting applications. The winner was 3x9. Hunting with a center fire in most states mean deer hunting. Most deer are harvested under 150 yards. I personally don’t know anyone who would hunt with cast bullets further than 200 yards. Most or more popular of the cast bulletin calibers are favored by the 30’s. If you really want to bring ole Betsy out to practice your skills for hunting season are you willing to take your low powered scope off and install that target scope? As tominct replies, increasing the magnification is fine for bench rest. But takes away from the spirit of hunting class.
I’m not suggesting a rule change. I’m suggesting shooting a hunter class and what ever people want that doesn’t fit into our present program. By shooting on the larger military targets it in ables both open sights and scoped.

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John Alexander posted this 26 September 2025

This is a good discussion but one we have heard a few times depending how long you have been around CBA or our forum. I have been around awhile and maybe a little history would help.

In the late 1970s CBA had a. production class (factory rifle, nine pounds, 9x limit) it might have even been 6x for a year or two.) I competed with a Sako 222

When that begun to decline, partly because shooters didn't like having to buy and use a spotting scope to be competitive, the limit on magnification was dropped and the class revived for several years, lasting through the 1980s but participation tapered off again.

To save the class, weight was raised to 12 lb. where it is now, changing the class to a varmint rifle class only with 308s instead of varmint calibers -- a rifle almost nobody used for either varmint hunting or other hunting. Never the less, shooters did buy the guns and the class is now as healthy as several other of our classes and is hotly contested at our nationals.

About 15 years ago in an effort to have a class for a rifle most CBA shooters already had. I wrote up a set of rules for a "Light Production class" 91/2 pound, 9X, and ran a postal match (with the help of the postal director) for four years. Participation was good and over the four years over 40 different shooters fired in the match. In preparing my case to the board for making HR an official class, I polled the actual Light Production for possible rule changes. The overwhelming response was to drop the 9X limit so they could see bullet holes through their scopes like the other CBA classes, so that's what we submitted to the board, and that's what the original vote approved. HR has never been 6 or 9X

Since adoption, there have been demands that if we would only limit the scopes to 9x we could increase participation. Over the years at least two official proposals to change to 9x have gone through the full process and been rejected by the Board. Of the several members who have pushed for this change, only one has ever shot in Hunting Rifle. It is a very popular idea with those who never shoot in the class but I don't think we have ever has a complaint from an actual HR shooter.

It is disappointing that HR hasn't attracted more shooters, especially new shooters, but the hard fact is that HR is much harder to shoot well than the more popular CBA classes. HR rifles also recoil harder in the calibers most cast shooters insist on shooting. It also may just be more fun to set 3 or 4K aside and build a real bench gun and shoot smaller groups. It is also a hard fact that most cast shooters don't want to compete. I wish I knew what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure that it ain't limiting the scope power.

John

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.22-10-45 posted this 26 September 2025

John, I was re-reading some of my ASSRA journals, and came across matches held between heavy bench rest muzzle loaders vrs. the newfangled breech loaders in the 1880's. A handicap system was used to somewhat even up the field. Perhaps something along these lines for scope and/or iron sights?

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shootcast posted this 26 September 2025

Don’t take it offensively. Not implying a rule change. Simply trying to get more members and possible new members shooting. Everyone starts somewhere and not everyone wants to start in a demanding arena . Do you think military would be popular if shot on the red targets ? Just saying we should offer more than we have now.

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Lucky1 posted this 27 September 2025

Please...don't even put red targets and military rifles in the same sentence. Darn, now I just did it. Red targets and iron sights are a nightmare and I found this out with hard experience. HR class is not impossible with a 3x9 scope and may have sone hidden advantages. Such as seeing wind flags a little easier. There have been others doing this that have done quite well at lower power. Better than me anyway but I'll not blame the setup. Yes, you have to use a spotting scope or target vision but that's ok for many of us because we have to for military shoots with 6x or irons.

Scott Ingle

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MarkinEllensburg posted this 27 September 2025

You are not proposing a rule change but you are.

There is nothing in our by laws that stop us from uniting Nothing that stops us from organizing a non official class. But all clubs have to do the same thing. If each club differs then we are only shooting unclassified.-- Shootcast

"all clubs have to do the same thing" sounds a whole lot like a class. Our rules do have a process to introduce a new class, whether folks wish to take the prospective seriously or not doesn't really matter.

Your passion for the idea is remarkable. Have you, at your local club or in your region, held such a not a class "limited hunter class" as part of a match? How about just a group of cast bullet shooters doing it outside of a match? Why must "all clubs" participate in your experiment? I would like to see more folks participate. New shooters too. Region 3 doesn't have problems adding shooters. Region 7 has a couple of clubs that are showing some growth, another club that has military matches and might bring traditional matches back to CBA. It probably helps that a young new shooter shot a possible new national record at this aforementioned club.

If you look at all the traditional match shooting disciplines it is easy to see the decline in numbers of all. Now we have F-class, and PRS and PCS for folks with hunter rifles and the mouse guns, and even rat rifles. However, it seems like most other disciplines, the urge to jump on the equipment race is alive and well. My club had a PRS .22 shoot last weekend. It was well attended and the mix of rifles ranged from a bone stock 10-22 to rather expensive custom builds with expensive target scopes, plus kit. This is the first successful match we have had in at least the last 4 years! We have tried a number of other matches that were poorly attended. The match director and 1 or two shooters.

I shoot Hunter Rifle class. I use a Ruger Hawkeye in .308 Win with a fixed 12x scope. In my safe I have a 36x scope as well. With a 12x scope I shot a screamer group a summer ago 10 shots 100 yards. At a match in Pasco this year I was the only, read that again, only shooter to shoot a complete score target with 2 shots per bull. A combination of wind and mirage prevented everyone else from landing 2 shots per bull on our score target. I am usually just competitive, sometimes better than others. As John Alexander says Hunter is the hardest class we have. It also has the most room for breaking national records. Honestly I do not wish to see any changes to the current rules. I think "Unclassified" is enough. Match directors across the country have found successful fun matches to supplant their registered matches, except it seems in Shootcast's region.

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John Alexander posted this 27 September 2025

22-10-25,

You are right over the years CBA has tried a wide variety of classes. The CBA board sometimes takes bitter criticism for not wanting to change to something and individule would like to shoot. If you look at a longer history the opposite is true. Many have been tried and most all abandon for lack of participation. We used to have have a class called silllohette rifle (10.5 llb, moslly unrestricted) I spent over a year and a fair chunk of change building a rifle and the class was cancelled that year. I shot it in heavy for a while at a 3.5lb disadvantage but decided I liked the ever changing production class better.

Having a real good idea is easy. Getting shooters to come and shoot in it or even fire postal matched with it is difficult as as Dave has found out over repeatedly over many years.

John

Mark and John Carlson have described ways that are drawing a variety of guns to their matches. More should try their methods.

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tominct posted this 27 September 2025

I believe a lot of folks join a club to have access to a range, not necessarily to use it a lot or even intermittantly. There are a couple state run ranges that are busy on nice weekends, some pay as you go ranges mostly indoors. You can't wander off on state land and have it, legally.

It's a hard sell to get folks to a match of any kind. Truth be told it isn't something that you can do with your thumbs on a phone.

I've been an Appleseed instructor for 15 years and the past couple have had lower turnouts, less interest in helping with the program, that kind of thing. A local club bullseye team I follow had a pic of the team, almost everyone was 60+ years of age.

As far as bench shooting my experience was in Lt production that 1 season and some in the military class years back. Haven't been shooting as much but I'd like to, have the gear still to do it in 'run what you brung' classes.

Some places will have a good turnout and run for some time while others languish. No rhyme or reason, it just is.

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