Most used alloy for 223 bullets

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2frogs posted this 30 January 2024

Getting into cast bullets for 223 with a 12 twist. No wheel weight available here in Pennsylvania. In my area at least. So I buy from rotometals. I have pure lead some Lyman no 2 and some once used linotype. My molds are all gas checks. Would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks, Johnny

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Larry Gibson posted this 31 January 2024

Use the #2 as is, WQ or HT.  Use the lino and lead with some tin to make some more #2.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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linoww posted this 31 January 2024

I prefer pure linotype for 22.I shot one of my best production class scores with linotype. 22 caliber in a 22-250 Savage. I think it was 196-2x at 100 yards.

That rifle and my other 22 calibers always seem to shoot just a little bit better when linotype is used.

In fact, the best 22 caliber cast bullet.groupd I've ever seen are from a friend of mine. Bob mills who has pages of targets with an old 222 remington. I bet I looked at twenty pages of groups and the each page had six or eight aiming points and some of the smaller groups are under half inch and the largest groups were just over an inch. He shot one CBA match with it. And I think at a hundred yards he might have shot a 198.

 

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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MP1886 posted this 31 January 2024

I feel when we see these type of question that the questions should ask what is the best alloys for: just paper punching, target shooting, HUNTING, lower velocities, and very hight velocities. I feel that many people that use Linotype do so because it is the EASIEST alloy to get to shoot accurately and cast easily. It's worthless for hunting and it's bad to shoot at very high velocities because it'll eat your barrel throat out in short order. Be more specific what the type of shooting the alloy will be used for. 

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2frogs posted this 31 January 2024

Thanks for the warning about the throat damage with linotype. I wasn't aware of this. All shooting is target or varmints. Wish you could elaborate more on this throat damage. I'm sure there are others that are not aware of this as well. Any ideas on how many rounds it will take to distroy it.. thanks for the warning.

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MP1886 posted this 31 January 2024

Linotype is rich in antimony, too much antimony.  Antimony is a very hard brittle metal with sharp edges.  At very high velocity, in addition to the heat from the powder combustion, plus the sand blasting effect of the unburned powder kernels, can really erode a throat fast. Know of a man that had a high dollar barrel shooting Linotype at very high velocities, chasing someones else's tail in an informal contest of who can shoot the highest velocity which accuracy, shot is barrel throat out in just a few hundred shot. Talking 3 digit numbers not 4.  He was warned by two of us that I know of, but he wouldn't listen as he was chasing the cast velocity master. 

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2frogs posted this 31 January 2024

I have never heard of this happening before.. I would like to hear from others that use linotype to see how their barrels are holding up. I would think it's more of the burn temperature,than the alloy. High temp powder I think is more the issue..but I can't really say.. johnny

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MP1886 posted this 31 January 2024

You never heard of it because it wasn't too many years ago that a certain group of shooters got into a cast high velocity contest.  You have to have a high Antimony  content, which Linotype has, and you have to really push the velocity. With low pressure and velocity loads you're not goint to see it as much as the high velocity loads. I'm talking when I say high velocity cast loads equalling jacketed. It's not the burn temperature. It's a combination of the temperature on the throat, the abrasiveness of both the partially and the unburned powder kernels. in addition to the high Antimony contest of Linotype.  Do you know that I've seen a stainless barrel in 264 Win Mag that the bore was firecracked like a dried up river bed from shooting massive loads of 872 suplus powder which burnds extremely hot? Wouldn't you think that condition would set up a scenario of the abrasiveness of the unburned powder and friction wear from the jacketed bullet to easily start destroying a throat? The barrel manufacturer asked me how could that barrel gotten that hot. I said a few of those surplus powders burn extremely hot way above canister ball powders. I've done a test with that surplus powder where I loaded five 6.5 Jap rounds with a load of 4350 powder. The rifle had a fairly thin barrel.  The rifle was at 65 degrees F as it set in my basement shop.  I fired those as fast as I could cycle the rifle. After that the barrel was only warm and you could put your cheek on it.  I took the rifle back into the shop and let it set for hours to get back to the room temperature of 65 degrees F.  This time I loaded the rounds with 872 surplus. Shot those as fast as I could cycle the action. This time the barrel wasn't warm, it was hot enough to burn your fingers. I don't mean burn as in a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd degree burn, but hot enough you weren't even going to keep your fingers on there more then a 1/2 a second. That was a dramatic change in temperature between that surplus and stick powder. Imagine a 264 Win Mag is very overbore and has a large powder capacity and in addition to the powder burn heat you have frictional heat from the bullet going down the bore. 

With normal alloy cast load, and especially lower velocity ones, the most wear you ever see on your bore is a good polishing. I would imagine over a period of years of lots of low or normal velocity Linotype loads that there would be more throat wear then what you would get from regular lead alloys. 

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pat i. posted this 31 January 2024

I've heard people blame a cooked throat for poor performance when in actuality it's more likely wind, repeatable bench technique, or just not finding the right load. What do you consider high velocity for a cast bullet?

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MP1886 posted this 31 January 2024

pat i.   What you can get in the same cartridge with top jacketed loads, but there's a but.  Such low velocity rounds such as 30-30 or such don't count. Talking like 30-06, 7x57, 5.56, you know.  

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John Alexander posted this 31 January 2024

I have found that for loads under about 1,600 fps in factory rifles you can get smaller groups easier with soft alloys. I have had good luck with 25:1.  There is nothing magical about the 22 bore that requires harder alloys. See the match reports. 

John

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MP1886 posted this 31 January 2024

I have found that for loads under about 1,600 fps in factory rifles you can get smaller groups easier with soft alloys. I have had good luck with 25:1.  There is nothing magical about the 22 bore that requires harder alloys. See the match reports. 

John

 

 

That's true John.  The HV stuff was only for those trying to prove something.  You really don't need it with cast. Back in the BP days you know what they did when they needed more.....they made a larger caliber bigger cartridge.   Also shooting HV with lead alloys is much harder then the softer more normal alloys. 

John look at all the stuff that has been done with cast bullets in quest of something easier and better in both making them and shooting them.  There's been all kinds of alloys mixed with lead to make the bullet more durable and stronger. To name a few: Copper, zinc, and some others. Another thing done to get more from a cast bullet is a more recent one, powder coating them. Shooters are basically wanting their cake and to eat it too.  Anyone that tells you that powder coating bullets is easier and faster then just casting and sizing/lubing them is dreaming.  So far, so far, pc hasn't equaled the accuracy of plain cast. 

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2frogs posted this 31 January 2024

What is 25 to 1. ? What about at 2000 fps or 2500 fps.. thanks

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pat i. posted this 31 January 2024

pat i.   What you can get in the same cartridge with top jacketed loads, but there's a but.  Such low velocity rounds such as 30-30 or such don't count. Talking like 30-06, 7x57, 5.56, you know.  

Shooting for jacketed bullet velocities with a lead bullet is a pipe dream and something not encountered very often. I chambered up a barrel in 30x47 and used a 160 grain LBT bullet at 2550 fps. It was not worth the effort. I know you said you need high velocity to burn out a throat with Lino but it seems to be the gold standard with guys shooting around around 2100 fps in the matches. If it's as abrasive as you say the throat would be worn out going 2100 or 2800 fps. I've looked at barrels with high round count and except for fire cracking they still shot great. If the things were being moved forward from the wear from antimony I'd think the wear would be perpendicular to the bore but every one the cracking was across the lands which leads me to believe it had a lot more to do with heat than antimony. BUT as I said in my previous post I think a shot out throat is an easy thing to blame for a rough spell at the range, that along with a scope going bad.

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MP1886 posted this 31 January 2024

pat i.   What you can get in the same cartridge with top jacketed loads, but there's a but.  Such low velocity rounds such as 30-30 or such don't count. Talking like 30-06, 7x57, 5.56, you know.  

Shooting for jacketed bullet velocities with a lead bullet is a pipe dream and something not encountered very often. I chambered up a barrel in 30x47 and used a 160 grain LBT bullet at 2550 fps. It was not worth the effort. I know you said you need high velocity to burn out a throat with Lino but it seems to be the gold standard with guys shooting around around 2100 fps in the matches. If it's as abrasive as you say the throat would be worn out going 2100 or 2800 fps. I've looked at barrels with high round count and except for fire cracking they still shot great. If the things were being moved forward from the wear from antimony I'd think the wear would be perpendicular to the bore but every one the cracking was across the lands which leads me to believe it had a lot more to do with heat than antimony. BUT as I said in my previous post I think a shot out throat is an easy thing to blame for a rough spell at the range, that along with a scope going bad.
Okay my friend pat, let's get this figured out.  First your 30x47 cartridge with a 160 grain bullet to 2550 fps is very well into the realms I speak of, of HV with a cast alloy. I also had told that it's difficult to do, surely not easy.  I also explained that the heat cracking (those words alone HEAT CRACKING) tells you that I said it was indeed the heat, added to by bullet friction, that indeed cause the cracking. You can't cause any kind of cracking with any kind of alloy, you know that. That fellow that I mentioned that speedingly wore his throat by shooting Linotype at high velocity MEASURED the wear. So for him it's not an imagined thing, it was actually physical wear of his throat. He was pissed to say the least. Because I wasn't a friend of his my telling him wasn't believed.  Well he found out. 

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MarkinEllensburg posted this 31 January 2024

What is 25 to 1. ? What about at 2000 fps or 2500 fps.. thanks

25 parts lead 1 part tin

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Brodie posted this 31 January 2024

2Frogs, 25:1 is twenty-five parts lead to one part tin.  That is the alloy.  Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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tomme boy posted this 31 January 2024

lol! the things you hear in a gun forum. 

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Larry Gibson posted this 31 January 2024

tomme boy posted this 33 minutes ago

 

lol! the things you hear in a gun forum. 

 

and so it is........

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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pat i. posted this 01 February 2024

lol! the things you hear in a gun forum. 

Meaning???

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linoww posted this 01 February 2024

I have found that for loads under about 1,600 fps in factory rifles you can get smaller groups easier with soft alloys. I have had good luck with 25:1.  There is nothing magical about the 22 bore that requires harder alloys. See the match reports. 

John

 

My load was running 2100 and it seemed to be the sweet spot. And a lot of my reason for using linotype in everything is my dad was a printer and we had four tons of it in the back yard!

I'm down to about a thousand pounds.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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