LDPE

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pat i. posted this 30 November 2023

Low density polyethylene. Neco used to and maybe still does sell P-Wads. It's just a little piece of flexible plastic you put in the neck of the case before seating the bullet to seal and protect the base of a cast bullet. I have some and have a die to cut my own but never saw an improvement. But it's been a long while so maybe I didn't give them a good enough test.

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 30 November 2023

The wads, either 0.030" or 0.060" thick, are commonly used in plain base cast bullet loads with black powder in black powder cartridge loads. Alternately, "veggie wads" of similar thicknesses are used also.

Buffalo Arms is one source where they can be bought. You can also buy a press mounted wad punch (various sizes) to make your own from sheets of either material. Those odd looking funnel like shields that are put on a dog or cat, to keep them from chewing or licking a recent surgery or other "ouie" , are often made of LDPE and make good wad material.

Tom

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pat i. posted this 01 December 2023

I have a 30 caliber press mounted wad punch and some of that material they use on dock doors to keep the wind out. It's in my loading room somewhere and I don't remember how thick it is.

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gnoahhh posted this 01 December 2023

I use a wax wad under plain base bullets. Home brew, slightly altered from Niedner's recipe. Poured onto wax paper to create a sheet, case mouth pressed into it like a cookie cutter, bullet seated on top of it. I swear it helps accuracy - at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

I initially tried using sheets of dental wax and there was a definite improvement in accuracy. But after each range session I had to work to remove a hard waxy build up in front of the chamber so I stopped it. Funny thing is there was no falling off of accuracy as the wax built up. Weird.

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lotech posted this 01 December 2023

I haven't used it in years and never very much then, but I bought a grease wad extruder from Cabine Tree fifteen or more years ago. I know this particular extruder is no longer available, but there may be others in production or perhaps can be special ordered. Mine uses any bullet lube and it can be adjusted to extrude a ribbon of lube, any thickness, about an inch wide and any practical length. The wads can be pressed from the ribbon with an open case neck or other tool.

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Clod Hopper posted this 01 December 2023

What is Neidner's recipe? Are plastic lids close enough? Other sources for LDPE?

Dale M. Lock

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gnoahhh posted this 01 December 2023

What is Neidner's recipe?

4oz beeswax, 2oz colloidal graphite, 4oz Japan wax. All available from Amazon and/or eBay. I lessened the graphite a tad and increased Japan wax a bit to make it less brittle.

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OU812 posted this 01 December 2023

Grease cookies do work good at softening black powder fouling.

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pat i. posted this 01 December 2023

What is Neidner's recipe? Are plastic lids close enough? Other sources for LDPE?

Since you're a fellow victim of the not so great state of "Ill"inois and shooting 30 caliber if you want you can pm me your address and I'll throw some in an envelope for you to try out before getting too involved.

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JeffinNZ posted this 01 December 2023

Recycling mark 4 is what to look for. Coffee can lids, baby formula lids etc, etc.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Mal in au posted this 01 December 2023

Don’t dismiss Tupperware lids,I get mine from the salvage at the op shop,they get a lot of odd lids,no use to anyone except me!! Also a good source for pewter. Cheers Mal in au.

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Clod Hopper posted this 02 December 2023

Appreciate the offer. I was just curious. Thanks anyway.

Dale M. Lock

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John Alexander posted this 02 December 2023

I am fascinated by the idea of a soft wad helping to seal a cast bullet loads or a wax wad providing whatever bullet lubes provide and have been since reading Phil Sharp's book a long time ago. It seems so logical. I have bought such wads and the equipment to make them and seat them in the case neck, as well as making them myself out of various materials. LDPE seems the logical material to seal the gases and that's what Merrill Martin used in a series of articles in Precision Shooting. I bought somewhat less than an acre of the stuff in a moment of madness.

I have tried them from time to time, but could never see an improvement in accuracy. In fact usually a slight decrease. So I alway get discouraged and give it up. If anybody is getting a clear increase in accuracy for smokeless CB loads, please tell us how you are doing it. I am hot to give it another try.

John

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pat i. posted this 02 December 2023

I'm going to start playing with them with plain base in my 30/06. I can't see where they'd be any advantage when using them with gas checked bullets but they might help with a plain base. Best way to tell is to try it I suppose.

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 December 2023

Speaking of Merrill Martin, I have a file folder of his articles on the use of wads here somewhere. Memory….he believed that a cast bullet of the correct alloy (can’t be too hard), with square lube grooves, not radiused, would allow the bullet to collapse as it went down the barrel, extruding the lube onto the bore surfaces. This, while the wad protected the bullet base from the forces of ignition.

In preparation for this, he promoted the need for a really smooth bore, hence the offer to select readers, to receive a barrel lapping kit from him.

Can’t remember if he was using just straight walled cases or also included bottleneck cases? Some people had a fear of the wad falling down into the case if you used a bottleneck case.

The whole concept seems to have died.

Tom

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Boschloper posted this 03 December 2023

I have tried LDPE wads in 45-70 and in magnum revolvers but never saw any benefit so I stopped using them. I find powder coating works better and you can use powder coated bullets in bottle neck cases.

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Clod Hopper posted this 04 December 2023

How do I pm you? I live near SPI.

Dale M. Lock

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pat i. posted this 04 December 2023

How do I pm you? I live near SPI.

Who are you asking? To send a pm click on their name above their post and when their profile opens up click on "Message Me". A window will open and you can type your message. I don't think any notification shows up that someone has received a pm so it's best to let them know you sent something on the forum.

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4060may posted this 04 December 2023

Pat FWIW

I am half way thru my second sheet of LDPE 4'x8', shooting BPCR and black powder, 40-60 Maynard, F210, 60 grains Goex FFg,Drop Tubed and compressed, RCBS 400grCSA, sized .410, Douglas 1-16, Danish RB

I bought my first wad punch from Fred Cornell, asking him to make it for .437 dia. thinking this was the dim of the inside of the case where the .410 bullets base was.......after the 4th or 5th shooting I started getting cracks in the case where the bullet base was, the lesson is, with straight cases and BP,don't make the wad bigger than the bullet, I started with 500 cases lost 300 with fatigue cracks...lesson learned

to make it clear, the wad expands and grabs the brass and stretches it, causing stress cracks

make sure there is no lube on the base of the bullet or the wad goes with the bullet , sometimes or not., most of the BPCR guys put a newsprint wad between the bullet and LDPE wad

Back when Merrill Martin, did the articles on wads and fire lapping, Rich Weber and I both did rifles for his test, I did a 6.5 Japanese Carbine, made cleaning better, accuracy was still, ehh, we tried using the wads in my 30-40Krag no.3Ruger, using the Saeco,plain base bullet, didn't seem to make any difference at about 1400-1450 FPS, I have used LDPE wads and Gasket material,Aka Fiber wads in my 32-40 Breech seated, wasn't worth the effort, actually I think the groups were more scattered, my rifle only, YMMV

I did hit a 500M ram with the carbine,only took 40 shots

Chuck

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pat i. posted this 04 December 2023

Thanks Chuck. I don't remember them being any great shake when I tried them years ago but that was with a gas check bullet. I really don't expect them to be a great shake now with plain base but I have to give it a go. I don't know if I'd invest in the die and material now but I already own it so that parts covered. Who knows I just might get lucky for once. Thanks too for the warning about the brass stretching. I threw a dental pick in my box if for some reason I have to dig a wad out so will use it to check the neck now and then.

By the way what material are you using that comes in 4x8 sheets??

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Tom Acheson posted this 04 December 2023

Pat,

Back when I was infected with Merrill Martin's articles I bought a 4'x8' sheet of LDPE. It rolled up a bit for transfer. My use then was for straight walled revolver cartridges. That was mid 80's or so. Fast forward to today. The wad is not an accuracy aid in the BPCR world, it serves as a needed barrier between the bullet base and the compressed powder.

But you might get lucky and find that in your smokeless piwder situation, the wad aids accuracy.

Tom

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4060may posted this 04 December 2023

.060 LDPE, standard sheet size from the local plastic company, want a piece? envelope size,, a standard hand held paper punch, makes a wad about .300+, I remember punching milk cartons for wads with it, the didn't work either, for me.

I also use .060 cork gasket material on top of the LDPE, in my 38-50 Hepburn with PP bullets, for a reason I am not sure of, it works better, Black Powder is VOODOO sometimes, I think the shock against the bullet base is somewhat less with the cork, case is full of powder, 63 grains of OLDE 1 1/2, compressed .080, 365 grain bullet, patched to groove, the throat is long in this barrel, Shilen 1-12

If Tom has the Merrill Martin articles, it would be worth your time to read them, I had the 22lr articles and let someone borrow them, long gone

have fun

Chuck

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4060may posted this 04 December 2023

https://jmsplastics.com/product/low-density-polyethylene-ldpe/

.060 thick 24 x 48 to 48 x 96 not sure of the price

I paid $24.00/ 48x96 sheet , about 1994 IIRC

I looked, I was wrong I bought 3 sheets, have half of one left, I was shooting min of 2 matches a month, sometimes 3, plus playing aka practice

we tried them in the 40cal ML, bigger pain than it needs to be, if I was shooting bullets in my ML, no patch , I think is would help, I know felt wads do.

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Tom Acheson posted this 04 December 2023

As a side note in my 40 cal 2 1/2 I found that stackin (2) poly wads and an equal thickness veggie wad improved accuracy. But...the powder is more compressed than "normal" and the felt recoil seened a bit stiffer.

This thing with wads is that it is one HUGE experiment. Every variable...powder granulation, primer, wad material, wad thickness, amount of compression, etc. impacts downrange results. As Pat has noted here...."you just have to try it".

That's why my last BP purchase was a case of 25-pounds....important...ask for all one-pound bottles to be of the same lot! It was a month before I retired and I was "given permission" to make a one time large purchase....for much experimenting!

Tom

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pat i. posted this 05 December 2023

Thanks for the offer Chuck but I have enough material to make a shytehouse full of wads. Not enough to cover a twin sized bed like you but enough for any tests I might want to run. I got into trying wads from reading Merrill Martin's articles in PS. That's a gun magazine I sorely miss. I clean the lube off of the bases now but plan on spraying a little oil into a baggy with some wads just to see what happens. A thin coat of oil should stop the chance of any wads from sticking to the base of the bullet....I think.

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 05 December 2023

I have found the LDPE wads only make a difference in loads that are not working well. If you've got a good, accurate load that shoots clean, there's no need to add anything. If you have a load that wants to lead the bore, the extra bore sealing of the wad might help. They also help in really hot loads.

A friend is forced to shoot undersize bullets in his 38-55 because of the combination of tight chamber and "loose" bore - both to SAAMI spec! He puts two LDPE wads under the bullets and it seals the bore and the rifle shoots great.

Glenn

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.22-10-45 posted this 06 December 2023

Wads are funny. My original Winchester high-wall .38-55 hates any kind of wad black or smokeless powder. I purchased a BACO

.408 - 330 Postell mould. With 20-1 alloy, last band right at .408, all others .409. I normally like a smokeless load to have a bullet 1 or 2 thousands of an inch over groove dia.

I was going to try this bullet in an Axtell 77' .40-70 21/2". This has a groove dia. of .408. For some reason I was afraid of leading so I tried various wax wads combined with veg. fiber wads. The most accurate loading used two veg. fiber wads with a .032" dental beeswax wad sandwich in between, with a target paper wad under bullet base. Powder was Reloader 7. Several 1" groups at 100yds. we're shot. This is about the average accuracy for this rifle with select loads using only a .060" veg. fiber wad. (vernier tang & windage adj. front).

Later tests proved wax wads were not needed, only a .032" or .060 veg. wad was fine with no leading.

I needed a grease wad when shooting Swiss 3fg in a .25-25 Stevens chambered Ballard no. 3 on a summer day. Very hard carbon baked onto bore right at end of chamber. I am shooting fixed with Ideal 25730 20-1 alloy. I used two .027" beeswax wads with 1/16" SPG wad between. 22.5 grs. Swiss 3fg, with .8gr. Kapok filler to bullet base. Later I used Puff-Lon ballistic filler on top of wads level with case mouth & compressed by bullet seating. Only last band of bullet in case so compression was minimal. Bullet was lubed with SPG. No more carbon buildup. Accuracy was 1/2" at 50yds. (vernier tang & windage globe front).

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Tom Acheson posted this 06 December 2023

Totally unrelated.....

There is a list of posts that each of us have contributed @ the lower RH corner of the main page. It shows me @ (45). That is crazy! It's not even close to the actual number I've made. It is a lot, lot, less than that. There has to be an unusual way of tabulating or crediting posts.

Oh well...

Tom

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pat i. posted this 07 December 2023

I took my 06 plain base out today to try some LDPE wads. As I suspected they didn't do anything for accuracy, in fact they might have made it worse, but they sure kept the barrel clean. It was worth a try but I'll stick to just the bullet from now on. Maybe when it warms up a bit next year I'll try them again but as of now they're a non starter. I sent my Wilson die out today to have it modified to size more of the neck. It can't be made to size the whole neck because of the 06 neck length but it should be more than enough to have the neck sized past the bullet base when seated in the throat. As it is now the unsized neck diameter is .344. The neck walls are .014/.015. That leaves at best .014 windage past the sized portion of the neck. My bullets are sized .3095 and seat below where the die stops sizing. Maybe having total contact with the neck will improve things a little. Guess I'll find out eventually.

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