Is there such a thing as a case that causes fliers?

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Last Post 27 January 2022

CBA President

John Alexander posted this 21 November 2021

I have heard and read over the years of shooters trying to eliminate fliers by discarding the cases that shot them. I'm not talking about cases that have gross variations in neck thickness from one side to the other, oversized primer pockets, or other such know defects, but a case that seems OK but is guilty of being present when a flier was shot.

Although I have heard of discarding such cases, I have never heard of anybody confirming that the case was guilty by seeing if it would shoot out of the group repeatedly.

Does anybody know of a shooter confirming that an otherwise normal looking case ruins groups and if so any theories what is wrong with such a case.

John

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Bud Hyett posted this 21 November 2021

In short , "No." This was an informal test, more of curiosity than proof.

Ed Doonan and I went through this many years ago, we had several discussions with a competitive shooter who did this and could not find his reasoning to be solid. He squashed each case that did not work. The problem was his case was gone and could no longer be tested once squashed.

Setting up a Remington 700 Sporter in .222 Remington Magnum that was a known shooter, we tagged cases and shot them in order calling each shot. Any shot out of the group was set aside and reloaded, then shot again. We indexed them by the headstamp, but the case could still rotate some on the bolt closing.

We shot one box of Sierra 53-grain Hollowpoint Match bullets and I forget the powder. First five-shot and then ten-shot groups with changing shooters as the day progressed, calling each shot. Changing shooters was to in part to eliminate shooter fatigue.

There were few flyers, this rifle shot well. This, we used the bullets on the edge of the group. There was no established relationship. The case that shot out one time shot in the next time. The case that shot in one time shot out later.

From this, I now prepare a lot of cases by first inspecting the primer hole, annealing, trimming to uniform length, outside neck turning to .015 wall thickness for both uniformity and to use a bushing neck sizing die. This is a winter project each year.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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RicinYakima posted this 21 November 2021

That is much my experience. Benchrest prep the case and unless it is grossly out of spec, it is not the issue. Then it is good for the life of the case. Lapua cases are good from the beginning, in my experience.

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Little Debbie posted this 21 November 2021

Nope, if I threw out every case that “caused” a flier I’m not sure how much brass I’d have left…………so other than split necks, incipient separations, the occasional odd body crack they all stay in the herd. As Ric says prep the case, and I assign 100 or more to a rifle and I’ll shoot them till it won’t hold a primer if nothing else occurs first. I rarely include neck turning anymore except for a couple rifles that have proven it helps. My shooting skill and bullet casting are the issues, not cartridge cases.

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GWarden posted this 21 November 2021

I will throw a fly in the ointment. I have brought this up in the past on this forum and on a few others and when I do it is pretty much silence or not much agreement. We spend so much time on the equipment issues, but to me one of the biggest is the "shooter". We are the one thing in the whole system that is not consistent each and every shot, I know some will disagree, so for me I am speaking. The list is long on things that we should look at as the shooter.

I remember in the past there was a fella that always was shooting fantastic results in the military matches. All kind of things were mentioned why he was always winning, and they pointed at his equipment. I replied one time that a lot had to do with a quality shooter. Saw a short reply on the post from him- "thank you".

It would make an interesting but long post on just the things we as shooters have to do with "accuracy" when shooting.

enough said, you all have a good day.

bob

Iowa

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MP1886 posted this 21 November 2021

I will throw a fly in the ointment. I have brought this up in the past on this forum and on a few others and when I do it is pretty much silence or not much agreement. We spend so much time on the equipment issues, but to me one of the biggest is the "shooter". We are the one thing in the whole system that is not consistent each and every shot, I know some will disagree, so for me I am speaking. The list is long on things that we should look at as the shooter.

I remember in the past there was a fella that always was shooting fantastic results in the military matches. All kind of things were mentioned why he was always winning, and they pointed at his equipment. I replied one time that a lot had to do with a quality shooter. Saw a short reply on the post from him- "thank you".

It would make an interesting but long post on just the things we as shooters have to do with "accuracy" when shooting.

enough said, you all have a good day.

bob

Iowa

I wondered how long it was going to take before someone mentioned the REAL problem. You're 100% correct Bob. Analogy: take someone back in the day that thought he was the fastest draw in a gunfight. Then he gets killed, when all along he thought he the best or at least very good.

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RicinYakima posted this 21 November 2021

Oh NO! The cat is out of the bag now! People are going to start practicing with their match loads and get to be better shooters.

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Paul Pollard posted this 22 November 2021

John,

Thanks for starting this thread. In discussions with Bob Birmley, he said that a case would shoot well for a time, then stop shooting. He would discard that case and start a new one. Some of this is mentioned in FS 250 and 251, "On the Road to Records." I tried his method several years ago and could find nothing that worked as he said, so I gave up on trying to find the perfect cases.

There was a recent question on Benchrest Central about Creighton Audette's being a benchrest shooter. Speedy Gonzales posted an article from a 1986 Precision Shooting magazine by Audette. He showed targets shot a long range which were with cases with less than .002" wall thickness variation which were much better than the cases which were .004" wall thickness variation. His contention was that uneven wall thickness mattered. He also suggested that the thin part of the case should be oriented at one of the bolt lugs.

That made me wonder if it mattered in 100 and 200 yard cast bullet shooting. I made a fixture to measure case wall thickness. My 300 Lapua 220 Russian cases have been used since 2008 and have about 70 shots on each one. I ran these over my wall thickness gage and separated them into lots of .001, .002, .003 and over .003 thickness.

One other thing that floats around is that fireforming loads for jacketed bullets are somehow more accurate. I guess it's only anecdotal evidence. I fireformed 15 new cases and checked the case thickness. Most were within .001 on wall thickness. The necks on these all measured .014". If they would fit with a bullet seated, I wouldn't even turn these necks.

On measuring the often-shot cases, it felt like the internal probe was running on a gravel road. I borrowed an ultrasonic cleaner to clean the cases outside and inside, to try eliminating the gravel. No luck. They still felt rough and the over .003 variation persisted in these cases. The new cases did not feel rough when measuring.

That's as far as I've gotten so far. I'm pretty sure that John will accuse me of jousting with windmills, but I've done it before. Some people also say that orienting a case does nothing, but Mike Mohler did, and a few of his records still stand.

It may take some time to run this test and I'll report back.

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John Carlson posted this 22 November 2021

I have isolated cases that shot "out of the group", just blackened the head with a magic marker. Then processed and re-loaded with the rest of the group. Never found a repeat offender let alone a case that consistently produced fliers.

Rats! Now I'm going to have to test whether blackening the heads will produce smaller groups.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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45 2.1 posted this 22 November 2021

Does anybody know of a shooter confirming that an otherwise normal looking case ruins groups and if so any theories what is wrong with such a case.

John

All depends on how the question is viewed, but the basics are uniform case volume, loaded round case neck clearance/alignment and case fit in the chamber.

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MP1886 posted this 22 November 2021

John,

Thanks for starting this thread. In discussions with Bob Birmley, he said that a case would shoot well for a time, then stop shooting. He would discard that case and start a new one. Some of this is mentioned in FS 250 and 251, "On the Road to Records." I tried his method several years ago and could find nothing that worked as he said, so I gave up on trying to find the perfect cases.

There was a recent question on Benchrest Central about Creighton Audette's being a benchrest shooter. Speedy Gonzales posted an article from a 1986 Precision Shooting magazine by Audette. He showed targets shot a long range which were with cases with less than .002" wall thickness variation which were much better than the cases which were .004" wall thickness variation. His contention was that uneven wall thickness mattered. He also suggested that the thin part of the case should be oriented at one of the bolt lugs.

That made me wonder if it mattered in 100 and 200 yard cast bullet shooting. I made a fixture to measure case wall thickness. My 300 Lapua 220 Russian cases have been used since 2008 and have about 70 shots on each one. I ran these over my wall thickness gage and separated them into lots of .001, .002, .003 and over .003 thickness.

One other thing that floats around is that fireforming loads for jacketed bullets are somehow more accurate. I guess it's only anecdotal evidence. I fireformed 15 new cases and checked the case thickness. Most were within .001 on wall thickness. The necks on these all measured .014". If they would fit with a bullet seated, I wouldn't even turn these necks.

On measuring the often-shot cases, it felt like the internal probe was running on a gravel road. I borrowed an ultrasonic cleaner to clean the cases outside and inside, to try eliminating the gravel. No luck. They still felt rough and the over .003 variation persisted in these cases. The new cases did not feel rough when measuring.

That's as far as I've gotten so far. I'm pretty sure that John will accuse me of jousting with windmills, but I've done it before. Some people also say that orienting a case does nothing, but Mike Mohler did, and a few of his records still stand.

It may take some time to run this test and I'll report back.

Speedy is a personal friend of mne. Great guy.

Did you ever think that the more you fire a case and reload it that it hardens? When it hardens the neck tension is stronger. You or he didn't mention anealing.

I feel one of the most important things done to a case to improve accuracy is sorting them by internal case volume. Weight cases is a total waste of time as the weight difference most the time is put into a case cutting the extractor groove.

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Shopdog posted this 22 November 2021

To answer the thread title;

Yes.

But then when you read the text,there's no way to provide enough testing to give some folks the assurance they would need to form an answer so;

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OU812 posted this 22 November 2021

David Tubb says non concentric cases can cause flyers. Especially when shooting jacketed. Non concentric cases that are full length resized and shot in larger factory chambered rifles will throw bullet off axis and wobble more.

Shooting cast is different since bullet should fit strait and tight in throat from the start. I do not know?

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John Alexander posted this 22 November 2021

Thanks to Bud and John -- and Paul after he shoots those sorted cases for experimenting to find things out. I hope we see more of CB shooters doing this sort of thing to find the truth about what counts and what doesn't.

It is also interesting to hear people's opinions or quoting some very good shooter's opinion but that doesn't improve what we know only states what we believe. Just because super shooter does X , believes in it, and wins doesn't mean that X had anything to do with it. None. May have, may not have. Just think of all the things we used to think necessary and now most winners don't do. Shooting in same order cast. Indexing cases and bullets. Nose pour molds, Annealing gas checks. Using one case. Sorting gas checks by weight, etc. Sorting bullets by weight will eventually join the list -- in about a hundred years.

John

If super shooters proves something is helpful and reports his tests -- that is a whole nuther thing.

John

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MP1886 posted this 23 November 2021

Thanks to Bud and John -- and Paul after he shoots those sorted cases for experimenting to find things out. I hope we see more of CB shooters doing this sort of thing to find the truth about what counts and what doesn't.

It is also interesting to hear people's opinions or quoting some very good shooter's opinion but that doesn't improve what we know only states what we believe. Just because super shooter does X , believes in it, and wins doesn't mean that X had anything to do with it. None. May have, may not have. Just think of all the things we used to think necessary and now most winners don't do. Shooting in same order cast. Indexing cases and bullets. Nose pour molds, Annealing gas checks. Using one case. Sorting gas checks by weight, etc. Sorting bullets by weight will eventually join the list -- in about a hundred years.

John

John that has been done many many moons ago. It's just that none of you listen or read everything on the subject. Before you ask I'm not saying who or what reading material. If you are as old as you are and haven't heard or read it then too bad. BTW all those "tricks" you just mentioned aren't worth a hoot unless you have a match target cast rifle and can SHOOT!!!

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John Alexander posted this 23 November 2021

MP1886: "John that has been done many many moons ago. It's just that none of you listen or read everything on the subject. Before you ask I'm not saying who or what reading material. If you are as old as you are and haven't heard or read it then too bad. BTW all those "tricks" you just mentioned aren't worth a hoot unless you have a match target cast rifle and can SHOOT!!! "

I am going to need your help in understanding your post. I am not trying to be dense but I can't see what the heck you are saying.

What is the "that" in your first sentence that has been done many moons ago?

Is the "it" in your fourth sentence the same "it" that I apparently haven't heard about or read? Or a different It?

You have already said you are not going to tell us who the "you" is that you slander as someone who doesn't read or listen or what it is that that they don't read. So I won't ask.

I'm sure that I'm not the only one who found your post incomprehensible and would appreciate the help.

Thanks.

John

I agree that those "tricks" aren't worth a hoot if you can't shoot. And they aren't worth a hoot if you can and most winners stopped doing them years ago

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Bud Hyett posted this 23 November 2021

Another thought after reading the many replies. We are dealing with an integrated system; ambient temperature, case, barrel, action, chamber, bullet, alloy, sizing, lubricant, etc.. Designing an experiment to isolate the attribute we want to test can be a challenge.

Realizing this, I spend hours in the winter preparing the season's case and then spend the rest of the time casting. Getting uniform bullets is equally important.

As Ric stated, practice is key.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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OU812 posted this 23 November 2021

Does perfect concentric ammo shoot more accurate than less perfect ammo. Especially in a larger factory chamber/ throat.

Custom target rifles have tighter chambers and neck to help alignment before flight. I believe the less concentric ammo would shoot worse still. This would be a good test for 6mm ppc owners.

Comparing would be easy...and shoot jacketed bullets only.

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OU812 posted this 23 November 2021

What determines if a case is good or bad? Other than concentricity and neck tension. Some cases have more neck tension than others.

I've heard stories of target shooter seating bullet in case with finger pressure before chambering.

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joeb33050 posted this 23 November 2021

Oh NO! The cat is out of the bag now! People are going to start practicing with their match loads and get to be better shooters.

It takes a lot of careful, attentive shooting to become a capable shooter.

I believe that a capable shooter does not improve with practice. I've been shooting benchrest seriously for 35 years, shot offhand for 25 years. I saw good offhand shooters shoot great scores reliably after layoffs-no shooting- from months to years.

I've been shooting rimfire for the past five years, many thousands of shots. Frequently 3X a week, 100 record shots per. Recently I have fired 50 shots for record per visit. (It ain't the ammo $.) Sunday 50 yards Irons, BSA Martini International, 5-shot, 10 group average = .660". I got to the range at 70; left at 10:00, It takes a long time to shoot carefully.

.660" is about in the middle of my Irons records; I have not improved in a (long) while. Group size and group size average varies widely, always has for me. The hardest thing for me is to stop, let go of the rifle, and wait for a while. The easiest is to yank the trigger and get rid of the damn shot.

So, I do not believe that practice eliminates/reduces fliers once the shooter is capable, if he is careful. Practice helps runners get stronger. Few mathematicians practice adding up columns of numbers.

joe b.