How did 30 caliber become the dominating caliber?

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JohnH posted this 3 weeks ago

I figure that i can answer my own question pretty much, the 30 spread across its whole family of cartridges does just about everything a fella coukd want, from the diminutive 30 Carbine and 300 Blackout as self defense rounds to the 7.82 Lazzeroni Warbird to get banjo string trajectories and drive heavy for caliber bullets to 3000+ fps it is the be all do all of the caliber world. Even 30 caliber handgun cartridges were once considered adequate for self defense. Even in Cast Bullet Benchrest the 308x1.5 is a common chambering.

But I must admit Im rather bored. Ive got other stuff and willingly play with anything new. Ive made a return to the 38-55, am playing with the 350 Legend, did a lot of shooting with a 25-06 Encore barrel till I ruined it with a double charge of 2400 (40 grains, didnt burst the barrel but it quit its tight grouping, haven't shot it in years now) ive been contemplating on 35-30, 358 Winnie, 35 Whelen. Pawn shop nearby has a couple 40-65 rolling blocks but my 38-55 can be uncomfortable with 250 grainers above 1450 (needs a shotgun butt stock) Ive even been eyeing the 8.6 Blackout

All things have limitations and writing this, I wonder if Im the problem. In any case, what are your thoughts. Ever get bored with shooting the same thing over and over and want something new? Should we call the 30 caliber the pinnacle of caliber and call it a day? Is there anything in that caliber family that hasn't been done? Where to from here

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RicinYakima posted this 3 weeks ago

Well, from 1996 through 2018, I shot between 2000 and 2500 rounds of cast bullets through 1903 Springfields. Last winter I got an 03A3 built by the Army Marksmanship Unit. Shot it 40 rounds in May and haven't picked it up since. 

Now it is mostlly 32-20, 32 H&R, 38 Special and 30-30. All in light weight single shots. 

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Ed Harris posted this 3 weeks ago

The development of smokeless powder was the main driver for the .30 caliber bore. The machine gun then sealed the future of rimless cartridges.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Tom Acheson posted this 3 weeks ago

I’ve enjoyed shooting my .38-55 in a CPA single shot with a 345-grain cast bullet. But the velocity is 1200 -1300 fps. The recoil is not a big deal but the rifle weighs almost 13-pounds, which probably helps ameliorate the felt recoil.

Tom

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JohnH posted this 3 weeks ago

Aaron, this is my second go at it with the 38-55. My first fling was with an NEF. And yes, it'll make a fellas hair fall out faster than male pattern baldness. Starline solved some of that with their 2.125 length cases. Back withe the NEF all I had was 375 Winchester cases which only added to the problems. I did get good results after some work using the sizing die as a makeshift crimping die. It would reduce the bullet shank diameter by about .00015 but stright wheel weight is apparently soft enough to bump back up and 1 1/2" groups at ~75yards (length of my range in thise days) gave plenty of after work enjoyment. Thats 20 years ago now, that NEF is no longer mine.

The new one is a Cimmeron Arms (Uberti) Hi-Wall and has the same chamber/groove diameter issues common to the cahmbering; chamber too small to allow seating of bullets large enough to fill the groove. This Uberti is tight at .379 so that helps.

Starline also makes a standard length case of 2.085" and surprisingly I get my best results with that case using my old method of shrinking the case neck area down just enough to chamber. Im shooting the Lee 379250 and Accurates 38-202E

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JohnH posted this 3 weeks ago

Ed, if I may id still like to explore this some, do you think it had to do with tge early smokeless powders being best suited to that bore size?

There was certainly plenty of experimentation across the board but for some reason the 30 won out. Here in the states it was 30-31 in Europe it was 31-32.

I hung on the powder because as I understand it, what we know as 4831was first made for the 50BMG, and it wasn't until after WW2 when it was brought to the civilian market as surplus that we had a powder suitable to wake up cartridges like 25-06, 270, and the magnums. I know Newton experimented with some light and heavy stuff, but even through present there is still powder development that is breathing new life into cartridges that have been with us, some longer than Ive been alive.

I just find it interesting that the 30 seems to be the most prolific caliber group there is. Thinking on it right now, I wonder if the same is true in some way of the 43-45 blackpowder cartridges. Im sure im missing something, any blanks you might be able to fill in?

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

I have no idea why the military was set on the 30 caliber....but they spent countless time and money perfecting the smokeless powder for it.

 

1892-1896  The developing years

The US Military tested many smokeless powders between 1892 and 1896. Wetteren powder had been their "Standard" base of which other powders were compared. By mid 1894, nearly 200,000lbs of Peyton powder had been used or stored for use with the .30 cal. .308 cartridges. Mostly only designated by test numbers, formulas constantly changing, it really is not known what powder designated names were actually used. At one point Leonard N7/16 looks just like Sharpshooter granulars. By 1895 Peyton powders were the powders of choice and some 5,000lbs more ordered. Whistler & Aspinwall specifically named and a designation of W.-A. was used. By 1896 the military was still testing "Samples" from quite a few companies but had contracts (1896-1897) for three; Peyton, Dupont and W.-A. (Leonard) now controlled by Laflin & Land. Ruby was mentioned a few times but seems to have been tested in larger cannon type rifles and mortars.

1897 details more testing for the .30 and both .45 & .38 Colts. Several powders for the two later. However, A few notes in 1899, I see Dupont is described as a cylindrical graphite black with dark green tinge. .053 in length and .041 in diameter. Laflin & Rand W.A. is noted with the dash removed. The .38 was using a few powders, Dupont No. 1, No. 2 as well as Laflin & Rand "Sporting Powder".

I think it would be safe to conclude that of the three powder companies under contract, the following would be used for the civilian market for the .30 caliber type cartridges.

  • Peyton S.P. - (Smokeless Rifle Powder)(unknown Granular)(Deemed Secret Ingredients)

  • Dupont S.P. - (No. 1 Rifle Smokeless Powder)(cylindrical shape)(Deemed Secret Ingredients)

  • Laflin & Rand W.A.S.P - (disc shape)(Deemed Secret Ingredients)(W.A. 30 to the public)(Deemed Secret Ingredients)

"S.P." could stand for "Sporting Powder", as "Sporting Powder" is mention numerous times in the reports.

The Civilian Side of Things;

Most granular samples I have for the civilian market appear to be perforated disc powders which appear to have been popular as "Sharpshooter" smokeless powder from 1897 to 1948....That is 50 Years!!!!!!

Of course, the 30-30 was manufactured by Winchester in 1894 using a smokeless rifle powder of which I have little information.

 Looking at some 30-30 "Short Range" factory loads, (obsolete by the 1920's) maybe from Winchester's 1896 catalog as, cal. 30-6-100   (.30 caliber - 6 grs. smokeless - 100 gr. bullet). Here is an insert from John Kort; "Based on my ballistic testing using the powder taken from original cartridges, I found that they effectively duplicated the .32-20, an excellent small game cartridge. No doubt, that's what Winchester had in mind". John also dissected and studied those early cartridges. He found some early powders "to be translucent stick powders", of origin was not stated. Maybe some early "xxxxite" powders deriving from the "cordite" type powers. To continue, Some short range cartridges John dissected produced the following;

100gr bullets - 4.4gr of Bulleseye/5.0gr of Walsrode/ or 9.0gr of Dupont No.2 "Bulk" (which would be of the off-white/beige rock texture)

117gr bullets - 6.0gr of Ballistie/6.0gr of Walsrode, 7.0gr of Shultz/ or 7.0gr of Marksman

Ballistite was from the Cordite family..."spaghetti-like rods initially called "cord powder"... and is probably that brownish translucent powder John mentions

 

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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shootcast posted this 3 weeks ago

Just thought I would mention that I enjoy shooting everything in my collection. Problem is there’s no logical class to shoot them in.

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Tom Acheson posted this 3 weeks ago

How much does the quantity of 30 caliber molds, that far exceeds the quantity of other molds of differing calibers, play into this?

Tom

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muley posted this 3 weeks ago

seems .30 cal has a wider range of leeway for reloading and accuracy. other calibers need to be more specific and less variables ?? .30 less frustration ??

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JohnH posted this 3 weeks ago

I really am seeking to get a better understanding of how 30 caliber came to be so dominate in the world of cartridges. Its like the Chevy small block of the cartridge world. Once I began to look more at what happens to the bullet when caliber is raised or lowered from 30, I realized that its the compromise point where the most return comes. Its easy to get good ballistic performance and it performs across a wide range of bullet weights and velocities, from 32 ACP to 30-375 Weatherby. And ther is a lot of ground there.

What does it have to do with cast bullets? For me, there's only 4 30 caliber cast bullets worth talking about, maybe 5. The RCBS 98 grain SWC, the Lyman 311008, the Lyman 311041, and Lyman 311299. I shoot a couple others, the Lee 312185 and RCBS 30 150CW. All else follows on the wake of these, for me any way.

But with cast bullets and production rifles there is only so much you can do. Thats true with jacketed as well. All things have limitations.

For cast bullets in production rifles the 300 Blackout, 30-30 and 7.62x39 are likely the ideal cases between case volumn, bullet weight and velocity.

Ive just got to accept those limitations and they really aren't that bad actually, I have a lot of fun within them. Sorry for the long post

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JohnH posted this 3 weeks ago

I do agree. Perhaps its just time to revisit my Spanish Mauser.

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Millelacs posted this 3 weeks ago

A few thoughts:

 

 At least in the US, the .30 cal got a big boost when the Army went to the .30 Army / .30-40 Krag or it’s other names.  Having the military supply line and then surplus weapons endeared it.  This continued with the .30-06 / .30 Government.

 

 .30 cal is probably like 35mm film.  Once they became things, that’s where the future research went.  With more research .30 cal and 35mm film became even more effective and popular.

 

 Somewhere I read that a particular caliber, either .30 or 6.5mm, was the smallest diameter that had enough room for special purpose bullets, tracers, etc.

 

 Thought provoking anyway.

 

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