Bullet "Lube" - Does it lubricate or Seal or Something Else?

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  • Last Post 28 August 2018
John Alexander posted this 23 August 2018

Does it really lubricate or is it like a liquid piston ring and help seal the gas behind the bullet and reduce gas cutting?

How does it affect bore condition that we would like to stay constant but often doesn't requiring frequent bore cleaning to prevent declining accuracy?

Is it needed at all and if so when?

If needed, how much is needed. Some people shoot multi groove bullets with lube in all the groves. Others limit it to the tiny groove in front of the gas check. Both win matches.

Why don't we shoot cast bullets with no lube at all in situations where we can as we do with air guns?

Can we learn something by discussing and researching this topic or is present practice good enough.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 August 2018

johna:  air guns.  no lube.  0.3 moa groups.

good to keep this in mind when trying to organize what we know, have forgotten, wish for, ...and just plain fantasize ...

when shooting 50 shot ARA rimfire against the best air guns  ...  ( air guns 20?? yards, 22rf at 50 yards ) ... the best airguns/shooters were unbeatable with our rimfires.   they could shoot 200 shots into a bughole at 20?? yards ...  and that small variation was probably wind and some bench error.     

not all airguns could do that ... probably tolerances ... our team " invested " in a top air setup ... and didn't get lucky .   hey, we tried bedding and even a barrel tuner ( g ) 

*************************

back to lubrication ... as noted, air pellets don't really have any ... some play with graphite, moly, and other dry lubes .... but that may come under "  superstition " ...

so here is my * assumptions * as to why the best airguns don't have flyers >>

air :: the hollow base takes care of blow-by .......  no initial lube seal needed.  so why aren't we using hollow base cast more often ?..  or every time ?  ( are the base dimples in 22 match ammo on purpose ?? )

not sure but i didn't see any winning solid base pellets.  

air :: real soft lead ...  seals at low/first pressure ... hmmm ... harry pope used real soft lead ...

air ::  no significant crud  in the pressure gas, so constant barrel condition ....  maybe our not perfect air barrel was changing as we shot it ... but our standard was very high  ( 200 shots in same hole at 20?? yards ) .

***************

again, the above is not to draw conclusions ... in fact it might be an attempt to  bring everybody else's confusion level about cast up to my own  cool.

if we can catch enough swirling bees we can make honey !! .

ken

 

 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 24 August 2018

Looking at bearings and looking at bullet / barrel interface is two different things.  A 0.001" gap on the leeward side of a land will let 50,000 carbon dioxide or nitrogen dioxide molecules pass side by side. Lubes work by the long molecules of the lube reducing gas flow and absorbing heat. Gas temperature and pressure determines what lubes work best, under the many possible conditions. Ric.

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David Reiss posted this 24 August 2018

Thoughts:

- air guns don't have high pressure hot gasses trying to cut around the projectile 
- lube doesn't for a liquid seal, the bullet base forms a seal 
- lube coats the bore not allowing powder and lead deposits to attach themselves to the bore wall (not always as       effective, depends on many factors such as lube type, powder, pressure, etc.)
- most times use as little as possible to get the job done without creating excess smoke and crud

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Larry Gibson posted this 24 August 2018

"lube doesn't form a liquid seal, the bullet base forms a seal "

Not quite sure that is the case.... we know from recovered fired cast bullets fired at velocities from 1800 to 3000+ fps that the layer of lube swages them down several thousandths smaller than groove diameter.  That is even though they started out .002 to .003 over groove diameter.  Recovered .310 diameter cast of #2 alloy and WQ with a BHN of 22 - 24 measured .305 to .307 after being fired out of a barrel with a .308 groove diameter.  Tests were conducted not only by myself but by goodsteel and Lars at White Label.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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JeffinNZ posted this 24 August 2018

Can of worms here. 

Something to consider is lead has it own natural lubricating qualities which is why it was added to petrol.

Also, we often see that the very least amount of lube on a bullet can produce the best accuracy.  IE: One groove filled only.

The following photo is a recovered .310 Cadet bullet.  It started with a reduced diameter heel that has slugged up on firing but retains what appears to be the full load of bullet lube.  Intriguing.

Cheers from New Zealand

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joeb33050 posted this 25 August 2018

 

Response by Ken Mollohan

 

Actually, I think we have some very good evidence concerning what a 'lube' does in a cast bullet load.  Consider the following:

 

1.  Unlubricated lead bullets (even though dead soft) can be fired without leading at fairly substantial velocities in air rifles.

 

2.  Dr. Mann (and a few others) have obtained decent results with unlubricated bullets, but only under conditions with fillers or when the bullet was a very precise fit in the throat.

 

3.  Otherwise, unlubricated cast bullets can be used in a firearm without leading ONLY if velocities are kept low.

 

4.  Unlubricated cast bullets can be fired all day long (even at high velocities) without any evidence of leading with Cream of Wheat (and other fine granular materials) as fillers.

 

5.  I have noticed on many occasions that the appearance of leading and lead flashing at the muzzle (when shooting normal lubricated bullets) coincided with substantial enlargement of the land marks on recovered bullets.  These enlargements can be shown to originate with the side of the land that pushes the bullet to rotate it, because flame etching marks on the bullet grooves are noticeably longer and more severe on the NON-pushing sides.

 

            Notice the pattern here:  Every single instance where bare lead can be used successfully is under some condition that eliminates or minimizes the exposure of the projectile to flame. In example one, there is no flame (unless you are getting dieseling).

 

            In example two, the base of the bullet is exposed, but not the sides -and the velocities are generally low enough to avoid abrasive enlargement of the grooves.

 

            In example three, loads are light, and so is the pressure (and flame temperature) trying to get past the bullet.

 

            In example four, the fillers have been shown to form exceedingly effective and solid firewall structures behind the bullet.

 

            Once, many, many years ago, I tried to find out what was causing leading.  The theories of the time included lead 'rubbing off' on the steel and similar absurdities.  I tried just about everything you can imagine to make lead adhere to clean steel:  Compression in a hydraulic press to 60,000 PSI wouldn't do it.  Rubbing the lead on smooth steel wouldn't do it. Rubbing it on rough steel would remove the lead, but it was just a loose, non-adherent dust.  Spinning the bullet against the steel using a variety of drills, etc left nothing that wouldn't wipe off with the finger.  So bullet velocity wasn't the problem.  In short, I have not found any set of conditions that will produce leading that does not involve flames - or at least high temperatures. All the evidence that I'm aware of seems to support a scenario that goes something like this:

 

            Upon ignition, the gunpowder quickly converts into a ball of incandescent gas at high pressure which drives it against the base of the bullet. If the load is light, and/or if the bullet is a very good fit in the throat, the gas cannot leak past in significant volume to do any damage, so the load is reasonably successful. However, as the load is increased, velocities and pressures also increase.  If the bullet is not a press fit in the throat, some gas will escape around the bullet before it begins to move. Abrasive land enlargement becomes significant, and opens channels along the bullet for flame to escape. This flame can easily exceed the melting point of steel, and it has little trouble etching low melting lead alloy from the sides of the bullet.  These molten droplets of etching are blown forward of the bullet, and then are ironed onto the steel wall of the bore as the bullet passes.

 

            (Now step aside for a moment, and go talk to someone with some experience with welding or soldering.  They'll tell you that even the slightest trace of grease or oil on their materials will reduce or even prevent adhesion, and that for a good job, the metal MUST be clean as a whistle!)

 

            I believe that - with reasonable loads -'lubricants' prevent this by fouling the steel bore, reducing the surface tension, and preventing the molten alloy from wetting and adhering to the bore.

 

            However, as loads are increased even further, several factors begin to act against the lubricant.  For one thing, as temperature of the flame goes up, so does the temperature of the lead etch droplets - and their surface tension goes down accordingly.  Eventually, their surface tension will be lower than that of the lube, and the droplets will be able to adhere to the steel.  (The weld / solder expert above doesn't even begin to work with temperatures like these!)  Also, many waxes and wax like materials will completely evaporate at high enough temperatures, and some of them may not be able to stay around long enough to wet the steel.

 

There's a lot more evidence that I could cite, but the short version is that- I believe-'lubricants' really don't lubricate anything. They just contaminate the steel surface and prevent lead from being soldered to the bore.  Does anyone have anything they think I'm overlooking?

 

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Larry Gibson posted this 25 August 2018

pat

 

There was minimal sign of "erosion" from passage through media.  Measurements were taken on smooth non-eroded drive bands.  Here's some photo's of the bullets I recovered.  Lars and Goodsteel found the exact same thing regardless of the velocity difference between 1800 fps and 3000+ fps there was little erosion.

 

Have to say I was very surprised indeed by the measurements.  I've recovered many bullets over the years (snow banks and such) but had never measured the end result before.  I also though it might be "erosion" but there just wasn't any evidence to support that hypothesis.. 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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pat i. posted this 26 August 2018

No pellets or unlubed bullets for me. I'm a "greaser" and "lube is lube" disciple and proud of it.

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frnkeore posted this 23 August 2018

Lube, isn't a liquid seal, it has no strength to do so. It does allow the driving bands to seal, by keeping them from tearing, at least in PB.

I shoot soft bullets and in my opinion, it is best to fill ALL lube grooves. Since the lube isn't compressible, when captured, between the barrel and lead bullet surfaces, it helps to keep the bullet from deforming, in the driving band area.

Most cast bullets have a lot more lube capacity than needed. I don't think that the grooves need to be more than .010 - .012 deep, even at 2000 fps. Just the capacity of one groove, should be more than enough to put the thin film of lube in the barrel, for the next shot, depending on how much bare lead needs to be lubed for that next shot.

Frank

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Ed Harris posted this 23 August 2018

https://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/boundary_lubrication.htm

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Paul Pollard posted this 25 August 2018

My apologies for lack of reams of data. Around 2007, I was shooting a Shilen barrel, 14 twist, 222 Rem. Bullet was a linotype RCBS 22-055 sp. 21.2 gr 3031 for a chronographed velocity of 2700 fps. The bullets were taper-bumped in a die cut with a 3 degree included taper. For one match at Washtenaw, I did not lube the bullets, although the tech sheet listed a lube.

After shooting 100yd score, George Morrison rolled up a target in front of the barrel while I cleaned it with brush and patches. We could find no lead on the target “tube” of paper.

It shot about the usual 1.5 - 2.0 groups at 100 yds. Score was maybe 170 - 180. If you need more data, I’ll have to see if I remember how to load it.

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RicinYakima posted this 25 August 2018

IMHO, leading is not an issue as long as the combustion gases do not burn past the bullet, or through the lube on the barrel. Note Jeff's bullet above. Ric

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Larry Gibson posted this 25 August 2018

pat

"Larry what was the test medium used to catch the bullets you measured? I've never heard of bullets being swaged down by a layer of lube. If they were sized down under groove diameter and flew along on a layer of lube leading would never be an issue as far as I can figure."

I used sopping wet newsprint at 300 yards.  Goodsteel and Lars made a trap and used wet sawdust.  There was a write up posted on CBF and perhaps this one sometime back (maybe a couple years?). 

Agree that leading should not be an issue.  The potential issue; is the bullet concentrically swaged down? If not then the center of form and center of rotation will not coincide with the center of gravity and inaccuracy will result.  The ability of the lube to evenly spread around the bullet seems to be the "issue".  Perhaps this is why some lubes, given none of them allow leading, prove to be more accurate than others?

LMG

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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joeb33050 posted this 26 August 2018

.223 / .22 cal. Pellet Conversion Kit lets you fire your .223 with more quiet POW! SAVE BIG!

This and a 209 shotshell primer turn your .223 into a quieter varmint or target blasting .22 cal. pellet gun!

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/223-22-cal-pellet-conversion-kit?a=593401

You can do the same exact thing with a empty primed .223 case and a hand seated .22 air rifle pellet.

If you want a little more speed, add 1.0 grain Bullseye pistol powder.

I killed a gazillion pigeons on the barn roof years ago with them.

rc

 

Leading? Who will try this?

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Larry Gibson posted this 26 August 2018

Started doing the same as joe back in the early '70s.  Remington used to make a small shotgun primer, #57 or #97.  Drilled out the primer pocket of 222 and 223 cases to take those primers.  Plenty of power w/o adding any BE.  Ran a wet patch every 5 - 10 rounds through the bore to wipe out the primer residue to maintain best accuracy.  Also have 22 Hornet cases with primer pockets drilled to accept LR primers for use with pellets. 

Found the heavier domed pellets worked best.  Got no leading as velocities were in the 350 - 600 fps range depending on case used, weight of pellet and primer used.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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RicinYakima posted this 26 August 2018

If it was easy shooting lead bullets, everybody would do it. If there was no mystery or magic and we really knew what was happening, would it still be fun?

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3Lakes posted this 27 August 2018

John,

You ask a very good question. My opinion is lubrication. My reasoning is like this. My cast bullets measure 0.3095 and I shoot them in my 0.308 barrel. Really that ought to form a great seal all by itself whether we gently inject the projectile into the barrel or slam it in at several hundred FPS. I think all surfaces of barrel interiors have some measurable roughness and I think the lubricant prevents excessive wear of the bullet surface, (leading) to occur in those micro cavities and scratches. Something like automotive pistons. The rings seal and oil that is held micro cavities of the piston shaft to lubricate and prevent wear.  I’m sure that professional tribologists might have a more sophisticated explanation. I worked with tribologists at MIT and RPI to understand the science of friction and wear pertaining to the action of abrasives on metals in the presence of a variety of organic polymers. 

A few days ago, I was sizing some newly cast bullets that were 0.3105 diameter. I was curious about the length increase by sizing. As I recall, it was a few ten thousands, not important for my point. When my  bullet at 0.3095 is further sized in my 0.308 barrel, I think the deformation process exerts a force on the projectile that tries to fill all void spaces. A rough barrel has many more void spaces and without adequate lubrication will accept lead deposits more easily than a smooth barrel.

The lubricant could act as a seal, but that argument gets into a rheology discussion. My guess is that our type of lubricants don’t undergo shear thinning like a paint dispersion does. I would expect the opposite behavior. The force to deform will increase as the rate of shear increases.

Loren

 

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Ed Harris posted this 27 August 2018

I would like to ask the BP cartridge shooters here, what is the ideal ratio of mutton tallow to beeswax for BP CARTRIDGE use?

In the past I always used equal parts by melted liquid volume, for both BP cartridge,muzzleloading rifle-muskets and as cap & ball revolver lube.

But around here in the summer it gets hot and I think a 2:1 beeswax-tallow mix would work OK for pan lubing and be less messy in hot weather.

I plan to use this mostly in .44-40 and .45 Colt loads, but will do some smokeless, plainbased loads in the .303 British and 7.62x54R mostly for academic curiosity.

What say you all?

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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pat i. posted this 23 August 2018

A good topic John and I'll hold off on comments for a while until you get some more responses.

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OU812 posted this 24 August 2018

I have been experimenting with Gearnasher's version of Felix lube. This lube is very tacky and does not work good when pan lubing. I am seeing more shots without having to clean. Fouling shot is needed after barrel cools.

Today I made a batch following the original Felix lube directions. Keeping temp very close to 300 degrees during cooking in glass measuring cup...infrared gun helps monitor temp during stirring.

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