Bullet "Lube" - Does it lubricate or Seal or Something Else?

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  • Last Post 28 August 2018
John Alexander posted this 23 August 2018

Does it really lubricate or is it like a liquid piston ring and help seal the gas behind the bullet and reduce gas cutting?

How does it affect bore condition that we would like to stay constant but often doesn't requiring frequent bore cleaning to prevent declining accuracy?

Is it needed at all and if so when?

If needed, how much is needed. Some people shoot multi groove bullets with lube in all the groves. Others limit it to the tiny groove in front of the gas check. Both win matches.

Why don't we shoot cast bullets with no lube at all in situations where we can as we do with air guns?

Can we learn something by discussing and researching this topic or is present practice good enough.

John

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beltfed posted this 28 August 2018

Ed,

I have had good luck/exlt accuracy with GG bullets in my BPCR rifles with

"Emmertini" lube:

50% yellow Bees wax, 40% Non Salt Crisco , 10% cheap olive oil (not the extra virgin stuff)

velocities up to 1400fps in my 40-65 and 40-72, no leading (alloy is 9+1 coww/lino)

Holds up in warm weather. , tho, I take the precaution of keeping my bullets/loaded rounds

in a cooler when at the range until I am shooting.   Store the lubed bullets in refrigerator or even freezer

so the lube will not "go rancid" 

I should think substituting the mutton tallow for the Crisco ought to work.

Now, lately, tho,   I have largly moved on for my BPCR shooting to The other good "lube" : the paper jacket.....

no lead contact with barrel, NO leading.

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Ed Harris posted this 27 August 2018

What's that buzzing noise? 

Junebug sizzling on my lead pot!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 27 August 2018

I would like to ask the BP cartridge shooters here, what is the ideal ratio of mutton tallow to beeswax for BP CARTRIDGE use?

In the past I always used equal parts by melted liquid volume, for both BP cartridge,muzzleloading rifle-muskets and as cap & ball revolver lube.

But around here in the summer it gets hot and I think a 2:1 beeswax-tallow mix would work OK for pan lubing and be less messy in hot weather.

I plan to use this mostly in .44-40 and .45 Colt loads, but will do some smokeless, plainbased loads in the .303 British and 7.62x54R mostly for academic curiosity.

What say you all?

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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joeb33050 posted this 27 August 2018

What's that buzzing noise? 

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3Lakes posted this 27 August 2018

John,

You ask a very good question. My opinion is lubrication. My reasoning is like this. My cast bullets measure 0.3095 and I shoot them in my 0.308 barrel. Really that ought to form a great seal all by itself whether we gently inject the projectile into the barrel or slam it in at several hundred FPS. I think all surfaces of barrel interiors have some measurable roughness and I think the lubricant prevents excessive wear of the bullet surface, (leading) to occur in those micro cavities and scratches. Something like automotive pistons. The rings seal and oil that is held micro cavities of the piston shaft to lubricate and prevent wear.  I’m sure that professional tribologists might have a more sophisticated explanation. I worked with tribologists at MIT and RPI to understand the science of friction and wear pertaining to the action of abrasives on metals in the presence of a variety of organic polymers. 

A few days ago, I was sizing some newly cast bullets that were 0.3105 diameter. I was curious about the length increase by sizing. As I recall, it was a few ten thousands, not important for my point. When my  bullet at 0.3095 is further sized in my 0.308 barrel, I think the deformation process exerts a force on the projectile that tries to fill all void spaces. A rough barrel has many more void spaces and without adequate lubrication will accept lead deposits more easily than a smooth barrel.

The lubricant could act as a seal, but that argument gets into a rheology discussion. My guess is that our type of lubricants don’t undergo shear thinning like a paint dispersion does. I would expect the opposite behavior. The force to deform will increase as the rate of shear increases.

Loren

 

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Ross Smith posted this 27 August 2018

I put lanolin in my ml schuetzen lube and bp cartridge lube. Absolutely no leading. The 32-40 with 43 gr fffg is clean with 3 patches. The ml takes longer, I blame this on deeper grooves. Thinking about trying spg in my 30-06.

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frnkeore posted this 26 August 2018

Joeb33050 said Bill McGraw said:

I have made my own lubricants for many years and find that beeswax, anhydrous lanolin, and Neatsfoot oil are among many of the animal, plant and insect compounds that are necessary for the "anti-flux" property that we need for the "gas check" effect and prevention of accumulated fouling in the bore.

 

Anyone here use lanolin in their lube?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are a few Schuetzen shooters in the Eastern area that add or use lubes with it in them.

Frank

 

 

 

 

 

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JSH posted this 26 August 2018

Wow, a lot of food for thought on this subject for sure.

I am of the thoughts, size is king. Alloy or lube, I am not sure which of these is second and third. I think there is a fair bit of hydraulics going on with lube.

I have tried various tumble lubes and various other stick lubes. I have yet to find anything that works as well for me as the Felix lube. I use the wax from what was intitally thought to be bees wax (gent from Nevada). I made up some other lubes that are just messy compared to my Felix lube. So if it ain't broke I am not going to try to fix it. I am watching and learning more here gents. Jeff

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RicinYakima posted this 26 August 2018

If it was easy shooting lead bullets, everybody would do it. If there was no mystery or magic and we really knew what was happening, would it still be fun?

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OU812 posted this 26 August 2018

Joeb33050 said Bill McGraw said:

I have made my own lubricants for many years and find that beeswax, anhydrous lanolin, and Neatsfoot oil are among many of the animal, plant and insect compounds that are necessary for the "anti-flux" property that we need for the "gas check" effect and prevention of accumulated fouling in the bore.

 

Anyone here use lanolin in their lube?

 

 

 

 

 

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pat i. posted this 26 August 2018

No pellets or unlubed bullets for me. I'm a "greaser" and "lube is lube" disciple and proud of it.

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pat i. posted this 26 August 2018

Ralph that's the best most diplomatic post I've ever read. This is an interesting thread though since there's a lot of different opinions with no one thinking they have the definitive answer. Which is as it should be with all things going on inside a barrel.

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Hoppy posted this 26 August 2018

I believe that lubes do a number of things in a barrel--though they may not "lubricate" much as we normally understand the term. They probably do aid in sealing the bore (as a relatively weak O-ring may provide a seal when backed by metal) against pressure and temperature. It is also likely that different lubes may accomplish different tasks--so looking for one answer is probably a mistake.

Some disagreements: First, my own experiments indicate that using COW (cream of wheat) and similar granular fillers can reduce leading but are not likely to eliminate it entirely in many loads. Second, it is possible to "rub" lead onto a steel surface; I did it easily by using a WW metal "wheel" with a spindle chucked in a drill. Rotating the wheel against a steel plate produced a stubborn smear of lead that behaved a lot like lead in a barrel.

But this discussion has elicited a lot of good ideas and viewpoints--on an issue that requires flexibility and adaptation to many factors, such as bullet hardness, fit, velocity, barrel condition, and variations in the pyramidic scrolls. . . .

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Larry Gibson posted this 26 August 2018

Started doing the same as joe back in the early '70s.  Remington used to make a small shotgun primer, #57 or #97.  Drilled out the primer pocket of 222 and 223 cases to take those primers.  Plenty of power w/o adding any BE.  Ran a wet patch every 5 - 10 rounds through the bore to wipe out the primer residue to maintain best accuracy.  Also have 22 Hornet cases with primer pockets drilled to accept LR primers for use with pellets. 

Found the heavier domed pellets worked best.  Got no leading as velocities were in the 350 - 600 fps range depending on case used, weight of pellet and primer used.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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joeb33050 posted this 26 August 2018

.223 / .22 cal. Pellet Conversion Kit lets you fire your .223 with more quiet POW! SAVE BIG!

This and a 209 shotshell primer turn your .223 into a quieter varmint or target blasting .22 cal. pellet gun!

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/223-22-cal-pellet-conversion-kit?a=593401

You can do the same exact thing with a empty primed .223 case and a hand seated .22 air rifle pellet.

If you want a little more speed, add 1.0 grain Bullseye pistol powder.

I killed a gazillion pigeons on the barn roof years ago with them.

rc

 

Leading? Who will try this?

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frnkeore posted this 25 August 2018

Can lubes be too slippery? Should we be using pine rosin mixed with beeswax?

Thinking WAY outside the box.

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Good question, Keith.

Many of the turn of the 19th century lubes, used rosin in them. I never tried them or added rosin to any of the lubes that I've used. Only because I thought it might be hard to get out of a barrel.

But, the thing that I like about that type of ingredient is that it could dampen velocity impulses, in side the barrel and there fore reduce ES, as well as maybe barrel harmonics.

One of my better HV lubes was 30% white lithium and BW. I had good results with it and it's not very slick, at all.

In E. H. Harrison book, he tried many different lubes and found that the slickest  (I believe automotive grease) went wild on the target. In the same book, they tried Teflon tape and that didn't work either.

Frank

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JeffinNZ posted this 25 August 2018

Good question.  I found in my flintlock when shooting patched round balls that the BEST accuracy was achieved when I seated the ball with a dry patch on the jag such that when the ram rod was removed so was all excess lube from the barrel.  This might also explain why often bullets shoot best when only one groove is lubed. 

Cheers from New Zealand

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OU812 posted this 25 August 2018

Can lubes be too slippery? Should we be using pine rosin mixed with beeswax?

Thinking WAY outside the box.

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pat i. posted this 25 August 2018

Well I guess like any other theory pertaining to from when the primer fires to when the bullet leaves the barrel anything's possible. I think in general though theory gains more acceptance as fact a lot of times by how much someone talks more than how right they are. And I'm NOT pointing a finger at you or anyone in particular, just making an observation.

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Larry Gibson posted this 25 August 2018

pat

 

There was minimal sign of "erosion" from passage through media.  Measurements were taken on smooth non-eroded drive bands.  Here's some photo's of the bullets I recovered.  Lars and Goodsteel found the exact same thing regardless of the velocity difference between 1800 fps and 3000+ fps there was little erosion.

 

Have to say I was very surprised indeed by the measurements.  I've recovered many bullets over the years (snow banks and such) but had never measured the end result before.  I also though it might be "erosion" but there just wasn't any evidence to support that hypothesis.. 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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