Damn flyers!

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  • Last Post 11 February 2014
biddulph posted this 24 February 2013

HI guys,

getting to the range each Sunday now and working up loads for an old Omark .308 single shot with a Lyman 200 gr wheel weight bullet.

Best load has 17 gr 2400 behind it.

Clover leaf 3 then 2 flyers at 100 yards.

Best group: 5 into 1.3". 3 into 0.5".

What am I doing wrong?!!

Charges weighed. Bullets not weighed. Brass Remington, fire formed and neck sized with Lee Loader. Gas checked.

I know this is an accurate round but the flyers keep blowing it out!

cheers

James

PS: same thing happen with the Lee 180 gr bullet I was using. And by the way, anyone notice out there that the little indent around the ogive cuts beautiful holes in the paper with the Lee bullet?

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pat i posted this 24 February 2013

What are you using for lube and how many grooves are you filling?

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99 Strajght posted this 24 February 2013

I was able to get rid of about 95% of my 30 cal. fliers by weighing to .3 of a grain. I still get a few but the number is down. Neck sizing only until the bullet is a light friction fit also helped. Redding bushing dies worked for that. Lee sizing the bullet to .311 also helped. Good luck Glenn

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Lefty posted this 24 February 2013

Some time ago I was trying to seat the bullet too deep into the rifling for the neck tension I was using. Occasionally a bullet would be pushed deeper into the case than the others. This caused big time fliers. It took me a while to figure out what the problem was. You can fix this problem a couple of ways. We could do an entire thread on what is the best fix.

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biddulph posted this 24 February 2013

Thanks for the ideas.

Lubrication is liquid alox tumble lube.

Powder weighed to 0.1 grain accuracy or less.

Bullets sized to .309 with Lee sizer. I have sizers up to .311 so can try that. Also have a bunch of .311 cast I use for my Lee Enfield, so could try that.

I THINK the bullet is about 20 thou off the lands but will need to check this. I've got the tool to do it so may get around to it tomorrow, depending of kid duties with my brood of wee ones (4 under 10!! For my sins...)

Loosen the neck is interesting. I may just knock out the primer and leave neck as fired if not too loose.

Re lube: another possibility is using teflon plumbers tape. I've used that before. It would also bulk up enough for a friction fit into unsized neck.

Paper patching the other possibility. Haven't tried that yet, but again its a way to bulk out a loose neck.

I'll load up some more utilising these ideas and let y'all know how it goes this time next week!

Cheers and many thanks

James

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onondaga posted this 24 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=2607>biddulph:

Use the largest bullet diameter that will chamber in a single shot. For my single shots and bolt rifles I use Lee Collet Neck Sizing dies backjacked slightly for larger diameter cast bullets. Custom Mandrels for these dies are available from Lee also. But a 1/8 to 3/16 turn back from instruction setting of the die will accomodate cast bullets .002-.004” larger than jacketed bullets for your caliber. After neck sizing I use the Lee universal expander die set to flare necks .005” for bullet seating. After seating, I use the Lee FCD set to return the flare to zero.

Seating larger diameter cast bullets in cases that have been FL sized will swage bullet diameter down when seating even if necks are flared properly, but the Lee collet will cure this and your nicely sized bullets will stay the right size with the collet die adjusted to suit.

Gary

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fa38 posted this 24 February 2013

<<<    ONONDAGA After neck sizing I use the Lee universal expander die set to flare necks .005” for bullet seating. After seating, I use the Lee FCD set to return the flare to zero.>>>

The slightly flared neck if left that way may help in a couple of ways.  It should center the case neck in the chamber. It should also help seal the chamber from blow back of lube and crude onto the case neck and keep a more consistent chamber pressure.

I have not really tried this with fixed ammo in my 03-A3 or my 1895 Mauser but I will have to do so. 

I do flare the cases in my single shots when I breech seat the bullets. It does not matter if the case is real centered but it prevents blowback that gets the case dirty and with weaker cases (25-20 single shot) keeps the blow back from collapsing the case. 

In my single shots you can feel the flair contacting the chamber wall the last quarter inch or so of chambering and the seal is very effective.

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onondaga posted this 25 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=562>fa38: Leaving the flare?. I'm going to try that, I can check the fit at the loading bench for amount of flare to support brass in the chamber. Mine are all pretty tight already except one caliber, my 03A3. This will be added to my bag of tricks if i get it working for me it will eliminate another variable by centering the case mouth in the chamber. Thank You.

Gary

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biddulph posted this 25 February 2013

hi Gary, what do you mean by 'back jacked'?

I've got the collet dies in .308.

cheers

James

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onondaga posted this 25 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=2607>biddulph:  Backjacking is just backing the die off from the correct per instructions setting of the Lee Collet Neck Sizing. This works easily with a Lee Press that doesn't toggle over and is a very linear setting with a Lee press.

The setting for normal neck sizing with the  collet die is one full turn in past first contact of the collet with the shell holder. That one full turn moves the die 1/14” inch and allows full closure of the collet to squeeze the case against the mandrel inside the die for neck sizing.

The Die can be adjusted less than the full 1/14” for less squeeze of the collet to accommodate larger diameter cast bullets.....that is “Backjacking” a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die.

You can micrometer measure the outside diameter of the case neck after sizing to verify the gain in internal diameter of the necks for cast bullets and easily see the difference as you adjust the die in small increments. It is a sensitive adjustment and consistent press operating lever strength is necessary. I always use 25-35 lbs lever operating pressure regardless of the collet setting.

This has to be done backwards to make any sense because every time you adjust the die out for less collet squeeze you would have to use a new fire formed case for a valid measurement. But if the die is backjacked first , then you can do the adjustments in with 1/8 increments using only one case until you get the neck tension on your bullets that you desire.

So, when I know first that I have oversize bullets, My initial setting with the collet die is to just contact the shell holder then I adjust the die down in 1/8 turn increments and I check the bullet tension every time I adjust till I get what I want.

I hope I have not confused you.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 25 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=2607>biddulph: double checking your post,  you mention the “Lee Loader". That is a little boxed kit used without a press. Using the Lee Loader, neck sizing cannot be backed off to have any effect, the Lee Loader neck sizing die is a ring sizing die and has no adjustable collet.

Forcing a .311” bullet into a ring sized case will swage your bullets down in size and cause the usual problems of undersized bullets; gas jetting, leading, poor accuracy.

Your necks need to be bigger to accommodate .311” bullets. Instructions for the Lee Loader specifically mentions they are not suitable for cast bullets. Now you know the reason.

Gary

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muley posted this 26 February 2013

biddulf, u indicate a cloverleaf of three and then two out. set aside the two out cases and reload the three cases and recheck the group. Pick out ten cases, load and shoot for group and pick out the cases that group, and reload them. sort ur cases in this fashion, it may help. Jim

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Mike H posted this 26 February 2013

James, You havent said what the barrel is in your Omark but mostly they are pretty tight,but chambered to 7.62 Nato which is more generous than most match chambers used in Australia these days.I have loaded RCBS 180 SP GC at .311 in one here.Cannot quote group size but it shot well at 200 and 300 yards.I used 30 grains of 2208 (Varget) or 28 grains of 2206 which I think would be about 3031.My bullets weigh around 198 grains lubed and Gcd.Mine has a Black Mountain barrel with a 1-14 twist. Am doing a lot of shooting at the moment with jacketed target loads so the cast bullets are not getting used much. I would be going for a larger diameter bullet provided it chambered easily and seating the bullet out to press against the lands. You are doing well,I think,but then my requirements are more lax than yours may be.I just like to practice holding and trigger release. Mike.

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JeffinNZ posted this 26 February 2013

Are you gas checks on square?

Cheers from New Zealand

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 26 February 2013

muley wrote: biddulf, u indicate a cloverleaf of three and then two out. set aside the two out cases and reload the three cases and recheck the group. Pick out ten cases, load and shoot for group and pick out the cases that group, and reload them. sort ur cases in this fashion, it may help. Jim

Do you orenent your cases?

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John Alexander posted this 27 February 2013

Biddulph,

It seems to me that the first question should be do you have a flier problem or just an accuracy problem.

You only mention that your best group had a cluster of three shots. Have other groups shown clusters of three or four shots in a tight group? If not you probably just have a lucky three shots that happened to land together. That's just the way random things sometimes happen.

What is the average size of four or five consecutive groups (without disregarding and shots or any groups?) Unless several of them also have tight three or four shot clusters you don't have a “flier” problem, but just our usual problem of trying to shoot better groups.

I believe we spend too much time worrying about “fliers” when 99 percent of the time that flier is just a natural occurence in most groups. Virtually all groups would be smaller if the “worst” shot wasn't counted. My article on this subject in the January/February Fouling Shot may better explain my skepticism about the existence of fliers in the sense of bad shots caused by an identifiable inconsistency in the load.

John

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muley posted this 27 February 2013

TRK, no I havn't oriented my cases as yet. I have sorted my WW cases in the 03a3 with the mx4ard bullet and it has improved accuracy. orientation may be next. Jim

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tturner53 posted this 27 February 2013

John makes a lot of sense. I've been struggling with accepting his idea but it does make sense.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 February 2013

i keep tellin you guys we should consider using standard deviation of bullet impact ( from any point on the target ) as a better description of quality of your system ...

using group size is like walking into a bar and coming out with, one on each arm, .... the two ugliest wimmin in the place ...

just sayin ...

ken

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tturner53 posted this 27 February 2013

You say that like it's a bad thing.

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biddulph posted this 10 March 2013

Hi John,

your post is interesting.

I went back over my targets that led me to 'damn' flyers with the following measurements:
15 gr 2400 into 1.295"
15 gr 2400 into 1.394" 
17 gr 2400 into 1.353"
17 gr 2400 into 1" 

The above are the best 4 shots of the 5 shot groups. 5 shots and there's a flyer.

Shots at 100 yards. Rifle cooled to ambient temp each 5 shots. All with same OAL, cases etc.

Today I used a change in powder from 2400 to ADI 2206H with the following results:
26 gr 2206H into 0.992"
27 gr 2206H into 1.038"
29 gr 2206H into 0.765"
31 gr 2206H into 1.080"

All groups same OAL and all 5 shot groups with no 'flyers'.

The rifle is an old Omark single shot target gun.

I was pretty happy to day with the results. Its like the change in powder caused the groups to both tighten up and become internally consistent. Everything else was as similar as I could get it: same sand bags, stand etc. More humid but only slightly as its the wet season here and crappy sauna type existence...

Am thinking of entering one of the CB postal matches!

cheers 

James

 

 

 

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