Cast bullets seated below the neck?

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  • Last Post 27 December 2012
mike morrison posted this 20 July 2012

i was looking at the cast boolets site and see a noe mould in the group buy section that is 311247. this is specific for the 300 blackout. the drawing shows the bullet seated well below the neck. I have always read and heard that the base of the bullet should not be seated below the neck. How will this effect this loading. what problems will occur if any. will bullet hardness effect this. should the bullet wear a gascheck? just questions that came to mind as i looked. any comments or info. just curious. mike

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tturner53 posted this 27 December 2012

If the Lee instructions say 'do not size unlubed bullets' then that's that. You must never size unlubed bullets, ever. Seriously though, if I was going to do it and be making a big reduction I'd use WD40, soap, or diluted Rooster to lube for sizing (and have, prior to heat treating), then wash them up to prepare for real lube. But, I've sized many many bullets bone dry in both Lee and Lyman sizers, no problem.

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onondaga posted this 27 December 2012

John, I hope the mold cooling time and cadence change makes the difference you want. Yes, the .002” difference I get is with .45 and .50 cal. bullets. I haven't tried to make .22 cal. bullets smaller, I have a hard enough time getting them .225” big that my rifle likes. I only have one .22 mold, the Lyman 225646. It is not really finicky, but I have to do my best to get .225” bullets from it with #2 alloy.

It is snowing here too and my pot of venison stew is just about ready! Venison is from grandson Colin's first Buck that he got with his own cast bullet, a Lee C309-170-FNGC in his .308 Win. Savage 11/111. I got skunked this year but he was sitting right next to me when he dropped the 6 pointer.

Gary

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pat i. posted this 27 December 2012

John my 6.5 die is the only one I have that gives me a problem when sizing with the check on. Why this happens I have absolutely no idea. Do I want to theorize or investigate why it happens..absolutely not. I just size it sans check and add it on when I'm lubing it. Problem solved

As for the .302 nose I always went with the “if the bullet just slides in at the muzzle all is good” technique but I don't think that's always the best way to do it. The first mould I ordered for my PB project had a bore ride of .300 and it was a perfect slip fit in the muzzle leaving just a hint of land marks on the bullet but when I chambered it there was nothing showing at all. I ordered another mould that cast a .3025 bore ride section and it had perfect land marks when chambered but wouldn't fit in the muzzle. Go figure.

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 27 December 2012

Y'all have fun.

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John Alexander posted this 27 December 2012

Gary,

Thanks for your suggestion for how I might get the reduction in diameter I would like. I am interested in the diameter of a long bore riding nose. Something my bullet sizing dies don't touch.

The bullet I am working with is a 22 so half a thou is equivalent to more than .001 for a 45. When I really work on consistency I can keep the nose diameters a 22 bullet within a range of .0003 with most of them in a narrower range, then they all feel the same when closing the bolt. I have always been amazed at recommendations for a bore riding nose of .302 or even larger for a .300 bore diameter(Frank Marshall and others). Maybe they used very soft alloys.

It is snowing like crazy hear so a good day to go down and experiment with varying the way I cast and see what happens.

Has anybody noticed a difference in diameters when going from one alloy to another? John

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John Alexander posted this 27 December 2012

This discussion shows that there are often many ways to do things “right” not just one. Directions that come with equipment are sometimes aimed at the simplest thing that will work for almost everybody almost all the time (instructions for FL dies for instance.) Following directions is good policy most of the time but there may be special goals or situations that require a little deviation.

I think the discussions also gives us a clue that being tolerant of how others do things is a good policy -- also the best way to learn something from other folks.

Joe, I have pushed tens of thousands of bullets (from 22 to 44 but mostly 22) through Lee dies all without lubrication and have never had any leading. That doesn't prove that it can't happen. But lead seems to be naturally slick and also works fine bare through air rifle barrels without leading. I have thought of using a little lube but reasoned the harder I have to push (which isn't very hard) the better my chance of seating the gas check squarely. I haven't had the problem Pat mentioned but that doesn't prove he is doing something wrong. Equipment varies along with everything else in this world.

I think Pat has a good point. Whatever your procedures for putting things together if you can take the finished product to a match and do well in front of witnesses that must have been one of the right ways to do it -- maybe even the best way.

John

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pat i. posted this 27 December 2012

joeb33050 wrote: And I'm not even involved!

joe b.

You are now.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 27 December 2012

joeb33050 wrote: And I'm not even involved! ...

... joe b.

:D

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joeb33050 posted this 27 December 2012

And I'm not even involved! I never use liquid alox. For the Lee sizer with unlubed bullets, I put a few drops of liquid lanolin on a batch of bullets and rub in on with my hands. Teeny amount. Clean hands as they get lubed, most of the lanolin is gone by the time the bullets are done. Don't put gcs on in Lee sizer. Don't k now if liquid lanolin is needed, but bullets go through easier lubed. Some bullets gc'd/lubed/sized in .312” lyman 450 die, then sized in Lee sizer. No lanolin. Unlubed bullets commonly sized and not lubed in Lyman 450, and I've never had an H&I die lead. Has anyone had a Lee sizer die lead with unlubed bullets? That would be interesting.
joe b.

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pat i. posted this 27 December 2012

"Just because somebody does things wrong, it does not make it the right way to do it."

If both ways work there is no right and wrong way

"I wonder if some of you are smarter than the reloading books on safe loads as well?"

Ever play with wildcats?

"Yeah, I jes dip my casin in a bucket of 4f and tap the bullet in wif a hammah."

Can we say Lee Loader?

To each their own I suppose. Think I'll throw caution to the wind and go rip the tag off my matress.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 27 December 2012

Any chance this might get back on topic or are we just going to tell each other how they should be scratching their whatevers?

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 27 December 2012

Pretty bold and beautiful right on the first page. The picture of the press with the sizing die in it. http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/BS2003.pdf

"DO NOT SIZE UNLUBED BULLETS”€ THEY WILL LEAD THE DIE."

Just because somebody does things wrong, it does not make it the right way to do it. I wonder if some of you are smarter than the reloading books on safe loads as well?

"Yeah, I jes dip my casin in a bucket of 4f and tap the bullet in wif a hammah."

O..K... .>

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pat i. posted this 26 December 2012

I have a ton of money tied up in rifles, barrels, scopes, reamers plus the tooling and machines to use them, and moulds specifically to use for cast bullet BR shooting so know all about OCD. Maybe it's just me but when it comes to the actual casting of bullets I've always found that being able to cast good bullets out of a GOOD mould cut for the alloy I use one of the easier parts of shooting cast bullets so maybe that's why this is one area of shooting these things where OCD doesn't rear it's ugly head for me.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 26 December 2012

pat i. wrote: TRK wrote: pat i. wrote: I think some people put waaaay too much thought into this.

Meaning? :)

Meaning that all we're doing is pouring melted lead, in a lot of if not most cases discarded wheel weights, into an inexpensive mould. It doesn't have to be complicated. Cast it, size it, lube it, load it, shoot it.

Cool. That works for me for a lot of my casting/shooting. And then there are some things that really bring out my OCD behavior!

:)

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Chargar posted this 26 December 2012

I don't lube my bullets before sending them through a Lee or other type of press mounted sizing die. Every once in a while they will give to much resistance, so I will squirt a drop of some kind of oil on the first one or two and then it is smooth sailing from then on. I just wipe off the oily bullets and put them in the box with the rest.

The only bullets I will lube before I size are the narrow band Loverin type bullets and only then if I am sizing more than .002 or so.

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pat i. posted this 26 December 2012

Sonny, Never found it neccessary to read an instruction on how to shove a piece of lead through a hole and obviously the instructions are wrong because doing what I'm doing works fine and Gary the only specific results I'm interested in are the ones showing on the target.

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onondaga posted this 26 December 2012

Pat, It is not rocket science unless you really want to change and get very specific results. Sure, I have been criticized for being annoyingly precise and told that casting bullets is only melting scrap lead and dumping it in a hole. I put way too much into it for the likes of many and may annoy some. That is because of my scientific background in research.

 However, when the difficult questions or basic questions from beginning casters come up or the questions from the old casters that have been doing it the same way all their life come up because now they suddenly have a problem ----- I can usually isolate the problem and do my best to help.

Gary

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 26 December 2012

I guess you never read Lee's instructions on the use of their sizing dies.....

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pat i. posted this 26 December 2012

Sonny Edmonds wrote: pat i. wrote: TRK wrote: pat i. wrote: I think some people put waaaay too much thought into this.

Meaning? :)

Meaning that all we're doing is pouring melted lead, in a lot of if not most cases discarded wheel weights, into an inexpensive mould. It doesn't have to be complicated. Cast it, size it, lube it, load it, shoot it. Well, not exactly. If you use a Lee sizing die (hand in the air), it works best to: cast it, lube it↔size it, load it, shoot it. Because Lee sizer (and others?) work best with some form of lube on them. I have my own special hot lube dipping method. Then the sizing process helps clear away excess as well as pressure fill the lube grooves. Sizing is critical to getting even consistencies. It is my assurance bullet to bullet I will get chamber pressures that are closer, and rifling engagements as close as the same. My .30 cal sizing die is honed to give me .3105” bullets, .002” over my bore size.

As for alloys, absolutely. Not many casters use anything they can call consistent. Saying wheel weights is like saying all tires are the same. It just is not so. So there again, I use raw material (alloy) sources I can rely on.

As for seating below the neck.... (getting back to the meat of the matter) The 170g bullets I like MUST be seated below the neck. If they are not, the rifles chamber will set them back. I load them at zero jump as it is.

OK, continue rolling turds into tiny balls..... Back to shoveling out the barn. :D

Well then it just goes to prove my point that it's not rocket science. I use Lee sizers too and don't use any lube on the bullets before sending them through and never have. In fact I push my 6.5 through without even adding the check because for some reason if I put the check on and try to push it through it tears the check up. I use nothing but WWs and always have with everything from the .32 S&W at 700 fps to my 30x47 at 2600 just HTing for the fast ones. Honing out a Lee die to me consists of coating a bullet with lapping compound and running it through until I get the size I want. I might not have ever won the nationals and Elmer Keith's reputation is more than safe from my handgun shooting but I never felt I embarrassed myself.

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onondaga posted this 26 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander:

I can get the bullets smaller with the casting method the same as I outlined, but with one specific change. After dropping bullets from the mold, take a significant pause of about 20 seconds or even setup a small fan to cool the open mold for a short time interval. This will cool the mold temperature. Then pour again. Colder mold pouring will make your bullets smaller.

So If you were really able to get maximum bullet size before, and many casters cannot. Just by the extra cooling and a slower casting cadence of 2 drops per minute instead of 3, you can make your bullets smaller.

Actually, many casters only get smaller bullets because this is the way they cast and don't have a fast enough cadence or don't have the skill practiced well enough to keep their molds fully warmed to the operating temperature that will give the largest mold fill-out.

However your goal of .0005” smaller is so little it will be tricky. It is much easier to make your bullets say .002” smaller and I can do that easily. But .0005",  I don't think I could make that small of a difference repeatedly. You could vary the cool time and give it a try.

I prefer to use sizing dies to make bullets smaller.

Gary

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