Cast bullets seated below the neck?

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  • Last Post 27 December 2012
mike morrison posted this 20 July 2012

i was looking at the cast boolets site and see a noe mould in the group buy section that is 311247. this is specific for the 300 blackout. the drawing shows the bullet seated well below the neck. I have always read and heard that the base of the bullet should not be seated below the neck. How will this effect this loading. what problems will occur if any. will bullet hardness effect this. should the bullet wear a gascheck? just questions that came to mind as i looked. any comments or info. just curious. mike

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onondaga posted this 20 July 2012

The 311247 is a flat nose spitzer , gas check design with conventional pressure lube groove and driving bands. There is nothing peculiar or innovative about the design.

Gas checks should generally be used on bullets designed for them. Gas checks have obvious function and also protect the bullet base from nicks/dings that affect flight.

The new Lee mold for the 300 blackout/whisper is much more interesting with a dual purpose design base and tumble lube design:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/938614/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl309-230-5r-30-caliber-309-diameter-230-grain-300-aac-blackout-tumble-lube-5-ogive-radius>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/938614/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl309-230-5r-30-caliber-309-diameter-230-grain-300-aac-blackout-tumble-lube-5-ogive-radius

Seating depth, and hanging tails into the case aren't a concern when shooting these low velocity designed cartridges. Engaging the lands by kissing the bullet there with LOA is working the best with cast bullets in this application.

Gary

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EdS posted this 20 July 2012

My first experience loading cast bullets in a bottle-neck rifle case was with the 30-30. I'd worked up some nice, moderate pressure loads with the Lyman 31141 and then had the opportunity to try the Ranch Dog design in a similar weight. I had to seat these deeper in the case in order to get them to chamber in my M-94. The first shot resulted in a split at the neck-shoulder junction. These were once-fired Winchester cases that had been Properly resized. Thinking it a flaw in the case, and seeing no other signs of excess pressure, I fired a second round - with the same result. Of course, I pulled the remaining bullets. So, my vote is to keep the base of the cast bullet in the neck if possible, or drop way down in powder charge and work up carefully. -Ed

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mike morrison posted this 21 July 2012

if the attachment worked here is a pic of the drawing that shows the bullet base below the the neck. what if any problems with this. seems it would be ok as seems to be desined this way. just different from what i have learned. the lee bullet looks like it will seat below the neck. just seems to go against what i have learned. have i missed something.?? i read the bullet if soft enough will bumb up and be larger when entering the neck. could be the case with the experience described above. that experience is what made me wonder when i saw this. m

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rockquarry posted this 21 July 2012

There are likely some exceptions, but from both an accuracy and bore leading standpoint, I can't recall a problem with seating a cast bullet below a case neck. My work has been mostly with several .30 caliber gas check designs in most of the popular .30 caliber cartridges. I always use a crimp-on gas check that has been crimped on, never just placed on the base.

Like most cast bullet shooters, I would prefer the base of the seated bullet to be in the neck rather than below it, but that's not always possible.

This is another cast bullet lore “fact” that deserves closer examination.

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mike morrison posted this 21 July 2012

I guess if the lube is not exposed to the inside of the case and the powder there should be no problem. Maybe lube exposure was the reference and i missed it. just caught my attention and raised the question. thanks m

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mike morrison posted this 21 July 2012

I guess if the lube is not exposed to the inside of the case and the powder there should be no problem. Maybe lube exposure was the reference and i missed it. just caught my attention and raised the question. thanks m

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rockquarry posted this 21 July 2012

Below neck lube exposure should be minimal, of course, but some exposure won't usually be detrimental. Ball powder is the worst offender here as far as sticking to the lube and a very soft lube like half & half that becomes runny in hot weather only makes things worse. I used to use a lot of Accurate Arms 2230 (ball powder) in the .308 and other cartridges with bullets seated below case necks. I never experienced a problem, but always used a stiff lube like LBT Blue.

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jhalcott posted this 04 December 2012

It is supposed to be available NOW. This is a heavy weight bullet designed to go subsonic and work in semi autos. I'm not sure about the pressures developed but they should be mild. As far as I know the Lee Liquid Alox for tumble lubing isn't harm full to powders. At least there have been no issues with it in MY experience.

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CB posted this 04 December 2012

The case only has about a 1/4 in neck. If you want heavier bullets than about 120 gr, all that bullet has to go somewhere.

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linoww posted this 04 December 2012

I had a slight boattail plainbase 30 caliber.it shot like a shotgun at 50 yards.Gas cutting was enormous.I'd be curious how the Lee"dual purpose” bullet does.As for GC bullet with no GC used i have had no problems using themas plainbase without GC at appropriate velocities.

I think Pat I won some matches with a 250+g 30 caliber some years back.He might have and answer to shooting these heavy things.

G-

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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MT posted this 05 December 2012

I would echo the remarks of rockquarry in that, although there could be exceptions, it probably isn't a problem. I regularly load a 300 Savage in a Savage 99 with a RCBS 180 grain bullet and an appropriate charge of H4895. The bullet has to be seated deep to work through the magazine; no leading or other problems MT

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linoww posted this 06 December 2012

MT wrote: I would echo the remarks of rockquarry in that, although there could be exceptions, it probably isn't a problem. I regularly load a 300 Savage in a Savage 99 with a RCBS 180 grain bullet and an appropriate charge of H4895. The bullet has to be seated deep to work through the magazine; no leading or other problems MT

My experience as well.

g-

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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onondaga posted this 06 December 2012

I had an exception!!!

The Lee CTL312-160-2R sized to .3105” for my Sako L57 rifle in .308 has the best accuracy of all my bullet molds for .308 Winchester. After I developed a load with terrific accuracy, I couldn't have been happier until I decided to chronograph my perfect load with the bullet seated having the gas check area just below the neck and at the accuracy sweet spot for the load.

I setup the chronograph and fired 10 shots, the target at 50 yards had one ragged hole. The face of the chronograph had six dents from gas checks slamming into it.

There is no way for me to determine if the checks are coming off at the muzzle or if the case neck is peeling them off. But it happens, and I'm blaming it on the bullet being seated below the neck.

Gary

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linoww posted this 06 December 2012

Only way to really test would be fire with the bullet above the case neck junction.If had great accuracy why worry and it proves it doesn't generally matter.If they came off before they went down the bore i would expect accuracy to be pretty bad.Heck they were originally supposed to come off at the muzzle as Barlow designed(stole the idea from the Brits actually)Maybe he knew something

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 06 December 2012

If fast-burning powders are used, which do not fill the case, AND if the bullet base protrudes into the powder space, AND is not supported, the bullet base may be upset upon discharge to conform to the case interior neck and shoulder, creating a “nail-head” effect which can dangerously increase pressure.

While I have not personally experienced this in cast bullet loads, this is the reasoning for the 11 degree, 30 minute blend between the 23 degree shoulder, and the neck of the 5.56mm NATO chamber, to prevent that from occurring with the longer M856 tracer bullet used in linked ammo for the M249 machinegun.

Federal cartridge had recalls some years ago of 6.5x55mm and .243 Winchester factory ammo which caused blowups believed to be from this mechanism.

If you are going to load cast bullets having their bases protruding below the neck, you want to use a powder of a burning rate which permits safe pressures and useable velocity with a compressed case full of powder. You want to avoid airspace which could result in the powder “plug” becoming a projectile and the protruding bullet base becoming an obstruction which can be upset into the surrounding unsupported adjacent area of the chamber.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 06 December 2012

That new Lee design is interesting. Don't have a 300 BO, but I'm wondering about other cartridges? How long is it? Actual as-cast diameter? I'm thinking I need to get one. Maybe try it in a H&R 30-30 single shot. Probably have to push it to stabilize in a 10” twist.

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onondaga posted this 06 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=2514>tturner53:

I cast the new Lee TL309-230-5R in a #2 clone alloy. They drop .311-.312” diameter for me. I get a length of 1.353". The largest diameter I get on the long nose ogive is .300-.301. Because of the small nose diameter and very long ogive, you can seat this bullet very far out till they bear on the rifling in a single shot rifle. I favor seating to .005” engagement of the rifling in my single shot 7.62X39 and recommend that for your 30-30 single shot.

The bullet can also be shot backwards or base first  having the appearance of a large meplat flat nose bullet. If seated that way, seat them to engage rifling .005” also.....They won't look very long seated that way and most of the bullet will be in the case. If you do that, start low and work up your load. you can run into pressure with so much of the case filled with lead.  However with a 230 grain flat nose bullet in 30 cal. you don't need very much velocity to really slam big game. About 1500 fps will give over 1,000 foot pounds at 100 yards with that heavy bullet.

I wouldn't worry about your twist rate at all because of the bearing area length/surface on this bullet. Look again at my picture up the page.

Gary

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tturner53 posted this 07 December 2012

That does it. Thanks for the info. I'm getting one. And a Lee 45-250 REAL mold for my ROA. I have Midway gift certificates to spend. While on the Lee bandwagon, today I ran a sample cast from a Lee .454 RB mold, brand new. Hit it with carb cleaner, warmed it up, and went to it. Worked great. Then I fired up the ww pot and cast some Lee .429-255 from a discontinued 6 cavity mold I borrowed from Grant M. First cast gave good bullets. Good times. AND, I just got my new Redding .22 K Hornet dies 5 minutes ago! More gift certificates. What a wonderful day.  EDIT: I looked and can't find the BC on the .300 BO bullet. Gotta be up there.

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onondaga posted this 07 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=2514>tturner53; Lee doesn't list the BC on the 300 BO, or anywhere I can find. My software puts it at ~.673 .  Of course, that is when you fire it point first !!!!! Base first the BC is only ~.300 .

Gary

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 07 December 2012

tturner sez: That does it. Thanks for the info. I'm getting one.


interesting ...btw i have a special throat reamer ...  goes from 0.313 to qbout 0.297   at 1.5^   ...  tapers ...   let me know if you would like to play with it ...a ppg reamer.    you could gently do that by hand.

remember... you can remove metal .. you cannot put it back  tho ..

( g )

or you could send me the barrel y i could do it for you ...but postage is cheaper on the reamer .. ( g ).

ken

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linoww posted this 07 December 2012

firing it backwards is a joke right?

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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onondaga posted this 07 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww:

"firing it backwards is a joke right?

George"

Absolutely not. There are shooters I know that fire 50 cal. hollow base bullets backwards in the .500 S&W Mag at lower velocity for a massive hollow-point hog hunting round. Some of these things sound odd or funny, but if it can be done, someone will try it. Heck, I've shot Energizer “D” cells out of my 37mm flair launcher with a teaspoon of Pyrodex.

Gary

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 07 December 2012

nothing blows up those giant, half rotten cucumbers out of a fall garden ....as gute as a backward  hollow base wadcutter at .38 +p loads... ( g ) ... ken

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Clod Hopper posted this 07 December 2012

I recently found a gas check in the barrel of my Remington VTR .308. I am not sure which bullet it was, probably the Lee 200 grain .308, but the gas check was an old Lyman .308 caliber gas check, i.e. not a crimp-on design. This has deflated my enthusiasm for shooting cast bullets in a .308 that are below the neck. I am sure the gas check was below the neck before it was fired. I have had other close calls that make me a real fanatic about checking the bore before I shoot!

Dale M. Lock

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linoww posted this 08 December 2012

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww:

"firing it backwards is a joke right?

George"

Absolutely not. There are shooters I know that fire 50 cal. hollow base bullets backwards in the .500 S&W Mag at lower velocity for a massive hollow-point hog hunting round. Some of these things sound odd or funny, but if it can be done, someone will try it. Heck, I've shot Energizer “D” cells out of my 37mm flair launcher with a teaspoon of Pyrodex.

Gary

I have shot many a 38 HBWC backwards but a Spitzer upside down is a different animal.Ya, i know guys shot 30 ball “pulls” backwards back in the day as well.If the bullet making it down the barrel is the success criteria then i guess it “works" Lets see a test and some results.At 100 yards and multiple groups of 5 shots.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Brodie posted this 08 December 2012

Just because it goes bang and something comes out the barrel does not mean it is worth pursuing. Like the man said: “It doesn't matter so much what you hit them with, but it does matter where you hit. They kill Elk all the time with a 22 rf.". Warden Ken Clay. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Ed Harris posted this 08 December 2012

I had a bunch of .38 Special 158-gr. lead, semi-wadcutters from Precision Delta which were .358 diameter, soft lead, with black waxy lube, two knurled cannelures, and a skinny, tapered nose which looked like it had been stuck in a pencil sharpener, with tiny 1/8” meplat, similar to the H&G No. 73? bullet for the .38 Super auto.

They didn't shoot for sour apples in my Colt Officer's Model Match revolver. I had 2000 of the darned things, so I loaded some backwards, with base band exposed, at 1.18” overall length, taper crimped, with 2.8 grs. of Bullseye. Loaded backwards groups were less than half of the pointy-end forward stuff, about 2” at 50 feet vs 4"+! Still no good as match ammo, but acceptable for indoor DA practice, instead of melting them down, which I almost did....

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 08 December 2012

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww:

"firing it backwards is a joke right?

George"

Absolutely not. There are shooters I know that fire 50 cal. hollow base bullets backwards in the .500 S&W Mag at lower velocity for a massive hollow-point hog hunting round. Some of these things sound odd or funny, but if it can be done, someone will try it. Heck, I've shot Energizer “D” cells out of my 37mm flair launcher with a teaspoon of Pyrodex.

Gary Just shows to go ya, ya never know 'til you try. I like launching stuff. Can I get a pm with the battery/37 mm recipe? We have a old thread here somewhere about oddball loads and such. Lots of fun stuff.

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 17 December 2012

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww:

"firing it backwards is a joke right?

George"

Absolutely not. There are shooters I know that fire 50 cal. hollow base bullets backwards in the .500 S&W Mag at lower velocity for a massive hollow-point hog hunting round. Some of these things sound odd or funny, but if it can be done, someone will try it. Heck, I've shot Energizer “D” cells out of my 37mm flair launcher with a teaspoon of Pyrodex.

Gary Gary, that begs the question.... Did they keep going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and....

I have two 30 cal bullets I cast and shoot. Both are a RN design. One is a Lee 120g mold. And the other is a 170g Lyman single cavity. Here is a picture of the bullets and how deeply they seat for a zero jump chambering. I mention the zero jump because if the 170g is not deeper than the case neck, the gun will put that little pill back there. So it is a no other choice loading.

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onondaga posted this 17 December 2012

Sonny,  I have actually sighted in by varying the charge to match the settings on my GI issue handle mounted tangent sight designed for the GI M203 launcher. I can hit a 10 foot target at 200 yards most of the time.

Gary

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delmarskid1 posted this 17 December 2012

I shot a lot of those little Lee 120's backward with no gas check in my S&W 32-20. I got about 4 to 6 inch groups at 50 yards. They worked great in the 30-30 over a little pistol powder. They did a little over an inch most of the time. I miss that Savage 219 a LOT.  My cousin used to take the guts out of the front of his Red Ryder BB gun and shoot C batteries out of it. The hogs hated him.  My uncle used to give him hell. ” Don't do that. It makes them hard to catch!"

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2012

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=2514>tturner53; Lee doesn't list the BC on the 300 BO, or anywhere I can find. My software puts it at ~.673 .  Of course, that is when you fire it point first !!!!! Base first the BC is only ~.300 .

Gary

I think those are pretty optimistic numbers for that bullet considering the 240 gr Sierra MatchKing is .685 at 1800 fps and below according to the Sierra website. When I tested the actual BC of my 250 gr bullet using two chronographs the BC was .390 at 1750 fps and would expect this bullet to be about the same if you could run it that fast.

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linoww posted this 18 December 2012

How did the 250 buck the wind @200 Pat?

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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joeb33050 posted this 18 December 2012

mike morrison wrote: i was looking at the cast boolets site and see a noe mould in the group buy section that is 311247. this is specific for the 300 blackout. the drawing shows the bullet seated well below the neck. I have always read and heard that the base of the bullet should not be seated below the neck. How will this effect this loading. what problems will occur if any. will bullet hardness effect this. should the bullet wear a gascheck? just questions that came to mind as i looked. any comments or info. just curious. mike My M10 Savage 308 Win has a short throat. Bullets sized .312” max oal is 2.805"; gc below the neck. Sized .3095", max oal = 2.300", gc in the neck. Last week 15/A#9, 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages were .312"/1.394"; .3095"/1.356" The same thing happens with 9.1/SR4756. Nothing bad happens with the bullet below the case neck-with my light loads/lower velocities. A friend at the range is failing to get that .300 AAc Lee bullet to shoot in a 10” twist Ruger .308 Win. joe b.

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pat i. posted this 18 December 2012

linoww wrote: How did the 250 buck the wind @200 Pat?

No better than a lighter bullet going faster.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 25 December 2012

onondaga wrote: The 311247 is a flat nose spitzer , gas check design with conventional pressure lube groove and driving bands. There is nothing peculiar or innovative about the design.

Gas checks should generally be used on bullets designed for them. Gas checks have obvious function and also protect the bullet base from nicks/dings that affect flight.

The new Lee mold for the 300 blackout/whisper is much more interesting with a dual purpose design base and tumble lube design:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/938614/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl309-230-5r-30-caliber-309-diameter-230-grain-300-aac-blackout-tumble-lube-5-ogive-radius>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/938614/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl309-230-5r-30-caliber-309-diameter-230-grain-300-aac-blackout-tumble-lube-5-ogive-radius

Seating depth, and hanging tails into the case aren't a concern when shooting these low velocity designed cartridges. Engaging the lands by kissing the bullet there with LOA is working the best with cast bullets in this application.

Gary

OK, I ordered one. Casts OK. 220.4 gr +/- 0.3 grains; BUT the .309 diameter widest part with the .294 diameter bore riding part sucks. My fault for HOPING that Lee would do better.

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pat i. posted this 25 December 2012

If you're looking for a heavy bullet take a look at Accurate's site. He has a bunch of designs and will change anything you want or you can draw up your own design and he'll catalog it. His tolerances on the bore ride are +0, -.0015 and my experience has been that he leans towards the small side so I order a thousands or so bigger than I want. The body diameters of the bullet are right on. No year long wait or waiting for another group by either. Tom usually has the mould to you in a week or so.

The only Lee 2 cavity mould I ever got that was decent was for a Makarov bullet. The rest have been a waste of money.

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onondaga posted this 25 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=97>TRK:

My Lee 300BO bullets cast a lot bigger than you are getting. I run them through a .312” sizing die for 7.62x39 and the die bears on them and sizes them. They are dropping a bit over .312” OD on the bearing surface for me and the nose measures .300- .301” for me. I cast them in #2 alloy at 620 F bottom poured from my Lee 4-20 pot. Solidification time for sprue puddles is about 5-6 seconds for me with mold up to temp and casting cadence 3 drops per minute.

Try an alloy with more tin and use all your tricks casting for maximum bullet diameter. I sure did to get them big enough for my 7.62X39. I really don't need #2 alloy for the pressure/velocity of the marginally sonic speed loads I have put together for testing but I cast  #2 alloy because it gives me the largest fill-out.

I hope that helps.

This is a brand new mold design for Lee so the cutting tools to make them should be at maximum and getting big bullets should be normal.

I bet you can get them bigger than what you are getting if you really try.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 25 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5498>pat i.:

My casting method is very specific to get maximum diameter bullets and all of my 30+ Lee molds cast large as received except one that I honed larger. It was the C309-150- FNGC. It cast .309 as it came and I honed to to drop .312".  I have been completely satisfied with Lee molds.

Even my Lee .457-340-RN-F that I have heard many complaints from other casters about dropping small came dropping .458” in #2 alloy. I honed that one also to drop .461” for my .458 Win Mag and size them to .460".

Gary

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 25 December 2012

'daga - it's worth a try to tweek the temp. I'm using a Mag 20 at just hot enough so the spiggot doesn't freeze. Adding tin is easy and cheap. Been running WW + tin, adding another pound won't take much. I'm dipping (to increase fill speed as it's a 220gr loooong bullet (it helps consistancy of bullet weights on larger bullets). Might have to put it on the lathe.

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pat i. posted this 25 December 2012

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5498>pat i.:

My casting method is very specific to get maximum diameter bullets  Mind explaining that?

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 25 December 2012

pat i. wrote: onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5498>pat i.:

My casting method is very specific to get maximum diameter bullets  Mind explaining that?

I'll bet it includes alloy, mould and alloy temperature, pouring technique and height/rate of flow. Maybe more.

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onondaga posted this 25 December 2012

TRK: "I'll bet it includes alloy, mold and alloy temperature, pouring technique and height/rate of flow. Maybe more."

I've only been casting since I was 7 and am now 62 and still learning.

Mold temperature to control sprue puddle freeze is very important. 4-6 seconds works best for #2 alloy for me and casting cadence controls this predictably for me when my pot is set for #2 alloy 570-620F works and is broad enough for my Lee pot to hold pretty well.

I generally swirl cast with a flow length of 1/4 inch to the sprue gate hole. My mold is tipped to the right 5 degrees and the pour is aimed at the high side of the sprue gate funnel with half of it on the funnel slope and half into the hole. This,  and the tilt,  setup a swirling circular flow of the metal into the cavity as the air comes out easily with no gurgling to impede flow of the metal in.

It is a challenge to keep up that precise pouring method and still drop 3 times a minute and has taken years of practice. I also work with my pot elevated and the pot nozzle at eye height for keeping  a close eye on what is going on while I sit in a chair and cast bullets. A key light points at the nozzle of the pot.

I only allow the puddle cooling an amount of time that will allow me to open the cutter plate with a gloved hand. Once in a while I will have to tap to cut but would rather get the timing right so I can open by hand. After the cutter is open, I pause a 10 count before opening the mold to drop bullets. Most of my molds drop well without help and I like to keep them that way or it goofs up my timing.

I drop bullets onto a dry towel and never water drop. I depend on my alloy for hardness, not heat treatments.

I only drop sprue back into the pot when I start a potful again so I don't cool the pot with sprue while casting. I make an exception on that for 6 cavity molds, on those I drop sprue immediately into the pot and run the pot hotter.  I reduction flux with sawdust/flame twice, Skim and leave a fresh table spoon of sawdust on melt top to char when starting a new pot and don't repeat fluxing till the next potful. I generally run 12-15 pounds of alloy down to 2 pounds before I refill my Lee 4-20 bottom pour pot. I only use a thermometer to verify melt temp at the beginning till I start casting a new potful, then the thermometer gets put aside.

I hope you found something new to try, but it is just the basics of getting it done for me.

Gary

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 25 December 2012

we do things in very similar manners. Pouring technique for me varies with the type of mould - size of bullet and material of mould. (as well as flow setting of bottom pour) Larger volumes (up to 1” diameter bullets) require dipper.

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pat i. posted this 26 December 2012

I think some people put waaaay too much thought into this.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 26 December 2012

pat i. wrote: I think some people put waaaay too much thought into this.

Meaning? :)

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 26 December 2012

Ima gonna put ona mya rubbah botsies.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 26 December 2012

Sonny Edmonds wrote: Ima gonna put ona mya rubbah botsies.

might need waders.

:)

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John Alexander posted this 26 December 2012

OK. So Gary has described his casting method which he says gives him maximum diameter which is about the way I cast (without the swirl part) including adjusting timing and pot temperature so the sprue puddle freezes in 3-4 seconds so I believe I'm getting uniform temperatures.

What I would like to know is specifilly what to do if I would like a batch to be a little less than max diameter. I cast a batch yesterday. They came out looking beautiful but about .0005 larger on the nose than the batch before from what I thought was the same alloy, pot temperature, time to puddle solidification, etc. That isn't much but in a hard alloy it is enough to make the difference between the nose engraving without pushing the bullet back in the case or being too hard to chamber -- and not.

Yes I have checked the mold block faces.

Thanks for any suggestions.

John

I would be interested in hearing the experience of any of you that intentionally and successfully cast for a slightly smaller or larger diameter (without beagling.)

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John Alexander posted this 26 December 2012

Sorry about my paragraphs getting scrambled in my last post. John

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pat i. posted this 26 December 2012

TRK wrote: pat i. wrote: I think some people put waaaay too much thought into this.

Meaning? :)

Meaning that all we're doing is pouring melted lead, in a lot of if not most cases discarded wheel weights, into an inexpensive mould. It doesn't have to be complicated. Cast it, size it, lube it, load it, shoot it.

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 26 December 2012

pat i. wrote: TRK wrote: pat i. wrote: I think some people put waaaay too much thought into this.

Meaning? :)

Meaning that all we're doing is pouring melted lead, in a lot of if not most cases discarded wheel weights, into an inexpensive mould. It doesn't have to be complicated. Cast it, size it, lube it, load it, shoot it. Well, not exactly. If you use a Lee sizing die (hand in the air), it works best to: cast it, lube it↔size it, load it, shoot it. Because Lee sizer (and others?) work best with some form of lube on them. I have my own special hot lube dipping method. Then the sizing process helps clear away excess as well as pressure fill the lube grooves. Sizing is critical to getting even consistencies. It is my assurance bullet to bullet I will get chamber pressures that are closer, and rifling engagements as close as the same. My .30 cal sizing die is honed to give me .3105” bullets, .002” over my bore size.

As for alloys, absolutely. Not many casters use anything they can call consistent. Saying wheel weights is like saying all tires are the same. It just is not so. So there again, I use raw material (alloy) sources I can rely on.

As for seating below the neck.... (getting back to the meat of the matter) The 170g bullets I like MUST be seated below the neck. If they are not, the rifles chamber will set them back. I load them at zero jump as it is.

OK, continue rolling turds into tiny balls..... Back to shoveling out the barn. :D

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onondaga posted this 26 December 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander:

I can get the bullets smaller with the casting method the same as I outlined, but with one specific change. After dropping bullets from the mold, take a significant pause of about 20 seconds or even setup a small fan to cool the open mold for a short time interval. This will cool the mold temperature. Then pour again. Colder mold pouring will make your bullets smaller.

So If you were really able to get maximum bullet size before, and many casters cannot. Just by the extra cooling and a slower casting cadence of 2 drops per minute instead of 3, you can make your bullets smaller.

Actually, many casters only get smaller bullets because this is the way they cast and don't have a fast enough cadence or don't have the skill practiced well enough to keep their molds fully warmed to the operating temperature that will give the largest mold fill-out.

However your goal of .0005” smaller is so little it will be tricky. It is much easier to make your bullets say .002” smaller and I can do that easily. But .0005",  I don't think I could make that small of a difference repeatedly. You could vary the cool time and give it a try.

I prefer to use sizing dies to make bullets smaller.

Gary

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pat i. posted this 26 December 2012

Sonny Edmonds wrote: pat i. wrote: TRK wrote: pat i. wrote: I think some people put waaaay too much thought into this.

Meaning? :)

Meaning that all we're doing is pouring melted lead, in a lot of if not most cases discarded wheel weights, into an inexpensive mould. It doesn't have to be complicated. Cast it, size it, lube it, load it, shoot it. Well, not exactly. If you use a Lee sizing die (hand in the air), it works best to: cast it, lube it↔size it, load it, shoot it. Because Lee sizer (and others?) work best with some form of lube on them. I have my own special hot lube dipping method. Then the sizing process helps clear away excess as well as pressure fill the lube grooves. Sizing is critical to getting even consistencies. It is my assurance bullet to bullet I will get chamber pressures that are closer, and rifling engagements as close as the same. My .30 cal sizing die is honed to give me .3105” bullets, .002” over my bore size.

As for alloys, absolutely. Not many casters use anything they can call consistent. Saying wheel weights is like saying all tires are the same. It just is not so. So there again, I use raw material (alloy) sources I can rely on.

As for seating below the neck.... (getting back to the meat of the matter) The 170g bullets I like MUST be seated below the neck. If they are not, the rifles chamber will set them back. I load them at zero jump as it is.

OK, continue rolling turds into tiny balls..... Back to shoveling out the barn. :D

Well then it just goes to prove my point that it's not rocket science. I use Lee sizers too and don't use any lube on the bullets before sending them through and never have. In fact I push my 6.5 through without even adding the check because for some reason if I put the check on and try to push it through it tears the check up. I use nothing but WWs and always have with everything from the .32 S&W at 700 fps to my 30x47 at 2600 just HTing for the fast ones. Honing out a Lee die to me consists of coating a bullet with lapping compound and running it through until I get the size I want. I might not have ever won the nationals and Elmer Keith's reputation is more than safe from my handgun shooting but I never felt I embarrassed myself.

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 26 December 2012

I guess you never read Lee's instructions on the use of their sizing dies.....

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onondaga posted this 26 December 2012

Pat, It is not rocket science unless you really want to change and get very specific results. Sure, I have been criticized for being annoyingly precise and told that casting bullets is only melting scrap lead and dumping it in a hole. I put way too much into it for the likes of many and may annoy some. That is because of my scientific background in research.

 However, when the difficult questions or basic questions from beginning casters come up or the questions from the old casters that have been doing it the same way all their life come up because now they suddenly have a problem ----- I can usually isolate the problem and do my best to help.

Gary

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pat i. posted this 26 December 2012

Sonny, Never found it neccessary to read an instruction on how to shove a piece of lead through a hole and obviously the instructions are wrong because doing what I'm doing works fine and Gary the only specific results I'm interested in are the ones showing on the target.

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Chargar posted this 26 December 2012

I don't lube my bullets before sending them through a Lee or other type of press mounted sizing die. Every once in a while they will give to much resistance, so I will squirt a drop of some kind of oil on the first one or two and then it is smooth sailing from then on. I just wipe off the oily bullets and put them in the box with the rest.

The only bullets I will lube before I size are the narrow band Loverin type bullets and only then if I am sizing more than .002 or so.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 26 December 2012

pat i. wrote: TRK wrote: pat i. wrote: I think some people put waaaay too much thought into this.

Meaning? :)

Meaning that all we're doing is pouring melted lead, in a lot of if not most cases discarded wheel weights, into an inexpensive mould. It doesn't have to be complicated. Cast it, size it, lube it, load it, shoot it.

Cool. That works for me for a lot of my casting/shooting. And then there are some things that really bring out my OCD behavior!

:)

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pat i. posted this 26 December 2012

I have a ton of money tied up in rifles, barrels, scopes, reamers plus the tooling and machines to use them, and moulds specifically to use for cast bullet BR shooting so know all about OCD. Maybe it's just me but when it comes to the actual casting of bullets I've always found that being able to cast good bullets out of a GOOD mould cut for the alloy I use one of the easier parts of shooting cast bullets so maybe that's why this is one area of shooting these things where OCD doesn't rear it's ugly head for me.

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 27 December 2012

Pretty bold and beautiful right on the first page. The picture of the press with the sizing die in it. http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/BS2003.pdf

"DO NOT SIZE UNLUBED BULLETS”€ THEY WILL LEAD THE DIE."

Just because somebody does things wrong, it does not make it the right way to do it. I wonder if some of you are smarter than the reloading books on safe loads as well?

"Yeah, I jes dip my casin in a bucket of 4f and tap the bullet in wif a hammah."

O..K... .>

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 27 December 2012

Any chance this might get back on topic or are we just going to tell each other how they should be scratching their whatevers?

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pat i. posted this 27 December 2012

"Just because somebody does things wrong, it does not make it the right way to do it."

If both ways work there is no right and wrong way

"I wonder if some of you are smarter than the reloading books on safe loads as well?"

Ever play with wildcats?

"Yeah, I jes dip my casin in a bucket of 4f and tap the bullet in wif a hammah."

Can we say Lee Loader?

To each their own I suppose. Think I'll throw caution to the wind and go rip the tag off my matress.

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joeb33050 posted this 27 December 2012

And I'm not even involved! I never use liquid alox. For the Lee sizer with unlubed bullets, I put a few drops of liquid lanolin on a batch of bullets and rub in on with my hands. Teeny amount. Clean hands as they get lubed, most of the lanolin is gone by the time the bullets are done. Don't put gcs on in Lee sizer. Don't k now if liquid lanolin is needed, but bullets go through easier lubed. Some bullets gc'd/lubed/sized in .312” lyman 450 die, then sized in Lee sizer. No lanolin. Unlubed bullets commonly sized and not lubed in Lyman 450, and I've never had an H&I die lead. Has anyone had a Lee sizer die lead with unlubed bullets? That would be interesting.
joe b.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 27 December 2012

joeb33050 wrote: And I'm not even involved! ...

... joe b.

:D

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pat i. posted this 27 December 2012

joeb33050 wrote: And I'm not even involved!

joe b.

You are now.

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John Alexander posted this 27 December 2012

This discussion shows that there are often many ways to do things “right” not just one. Directions that come with equipment are sometimes aimed at the simplest thing that will work for almost everybody almost all the time (instructions for FL dies for instance.) Following directions is good policy most of the time but there may be special goals or situations that require a little deviation.

I think the discussions also gives us a clue that being tolerant of how others do things is a good policy -- also the best way to learn something from other folks.

Joe, I have pushed tens of thousands of bullets (from 22 to 44 but mostly 22) through Lee dies all without lubrication and have never had any leading. That doesn't prove that it can't happen. But lead seems to be naturally slick and also works fine bare through air rifle barrels without leading. I have thought of using a little lube but reasoned the harder I have to push (which isn't very hard) the better my chance of seating the gas check squarely. I haven't had the problem Pat mentioned but that doesn't prove he is doing something wrong. Equipment varies along with everything else in this world.

I think Pat has a good point. Whatever your procedures for putting things together if you can take the finished product to a match and do well in front of witnesses that must have been one of the right ways to do it -- maybe even the best way.

John

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John Alexander posted this 27 December 2012

Gary,

Thanks for your suggestion for how I might get the reduction in diameter I would like. I am interested in the diameter of a long bore riding nose. Something my bullet sizing dies don't touch.

The bullet I am working with is a 22 so half a thou is equivalent to more than .001 for a 45. When I really work on consistency I can keep the nose diameters a 22 bullet within a range of .0003 with most of them in a narrower range, then they all feel the same when closing the bolt. I have always been amazed at recommendations for a bore riding nose of .302 or even larger for a .300 bore diameter(Frank Marshall and others). Maybe they used very soft alloys.

It is snowing like crazy hear so a good day to go down and experiment with varying the way I cast and see what happens.

Has anybody noticed a difference in diameters when going from one alloy to another? John

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 27 December 2012

Y'all have fun.

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pat i. posted this 27 December 2012

John my 6.5 die is the only one I have that gives me a problem when sizing with the check on. Why this happens I have absolutely no idea. Do I want to theorize or investigate why it happens..absolutely not. I just size it sans check and add it on when I'm lubing it. Problem solved

As for the .302 nose I always went with the “if the bullet just slides in at the muzzle all is good” technique but I don't think that's always the best way to do it. The first mould I ordered for my PB project had a bore ride of .300 and it was a perfect slip fit in the muzzle leaving just a hint of land marks on the bullet but when I chambered it there was nothing showing at all. I ordered another mould that cast a .3025 bore ride section and it had perfect land marks when chambered but wouldn't fit in the muzzle. Go figure.

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onondaga posted this 27 December 2012

John, I hope the mold cooling time and cadence change makes the difference you want. Yes, the .002” difference I get is with .45 and .50 cal. bullets. I haven't tried to make .22 cal. bullets smaller, I have a hard enough time getting them .225” big that my rifle likes. I only have one .22 mold, the Lyman 225646. It is not really finicky, but I have to do my best to get .225” bullets from it with #2 alloy.

It is snowing here too and my pot of venison stew is just about ready! Venison is from grandson Colin's first Buck that he got with his own cast bullet, a Lee C309-170-FNGC in his .308 Win. Savage 11/111. I got skunked this year but he was sitting right next to me when he dropped the 6 pointer.

Gary

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tturner53 posted this 27 December 2012

If the Lee instructions say 'do not size unlubed bullets' then that's that. You must never size unlubed bullets, ever. Seriously though, if I was going to do it and be making a big reduction I'd use WD40, soap, or diluted Rooster to lube for sizing (and have, prior to heat treating), then wash them up to prepare for real lube. But, I've sized many many bullets bone dry in both Lee and Lyman sizers, no problem.

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