Best Way to Use Lee Liquid Alox

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John Alexander posted this 19 July 2012

I recently found that a coating of Lee Liquid Alox improved a CB rifle load that I was trying. I had used it successfully on pistol bullets before but conventionally “lubing” had always seemed to be best for rifle loads.

I used it straight by shaking the bullets around in a pan with a few drops of LLA and letting them “dry” on wax paper. The bullets and loaded rounds are nasty and sticky. Is there a better way. If I remember correctly Ed Harris dilutes it 50-50 with mineral spirits. Onondaga in a recent post of a successful 223 load says he tumbles the bullets (more than once) in something he calls 45:45:10. That is obviously a ratio but the post didn't say what the components were.

What is the best way to use LLA? Is there a way to avoid the sticky bullets?

How do the different ways of diluting or adding other stuff improve things or does diluting just save LLA?

Are competing products better?

Any and all information on this topic would be appreciated. Let's try to get this stuff out of the magic elixir class.

John

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onondaga posted this 19 July 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander:

Here is the correct way to mix 45:45:10 Recluse by the originator: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67654>http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67654

 Johnsons Paste Wax and Mineral spirits are used with LLA in the mix. The procedure is easy and has a very important step with heat to remove the volatile solvents and replace them with mineral spirits. That is the key operation for making  the most successful product.

Using the 45:45:10 Recluse can even be further enhanced with a simple warmed application technique developed by a member there named Geargnasher (Ian)

Here is a summary of how I use the 45:45:10 Recluse:

I pre-warm bullets, usually 150-200 bullets, by placing them in an aluminum brownie pan and putting them in my kitchen oven on the “warm ” setting for 5 minutes. The bullets are warmed but not too hot to touch.

I warm the 45:45:10 before application by either putting the bottle of it in hottest tap water while the bullets are warming or by micro waving it 30 seconds at a time till the bottle is warm. Shake vigorously before application.

Application is done in a square container like a milk carton or ice cream container so the rotating to tumble will be aided by the corners of the container. Place the warm bullets in the container and squirt a small amount, about 1/2 teaspoon for 150 bullets.. Tilt the container and bullets about 45 degrees and rotate 60 times.

I dump the lubed bullets onto wax paper to dry, because the bullets and the lube was warmed the lube will be dry and tack free in 5 minutes.

I lube once before sizing/checking with Lee push through dies. After size/checking I tumble again 2 times for rifle bullets.  Plain based rifle bullets with no checks are tumble lubed only twice either “as cast” or  once before and once after sizing . Pistol bullets are done the same.

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onondaga posted this 19 July 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander:

Here is the color difference, these bullets have been lubed with straight LLA diluted with 20% mineral spirits. The bullets were lubed once before sizing/checking and twice after with the straight LLA/ 20% mineral spirits and they are tacky:

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onondaga posted this 19 July 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander:

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Wayne S posted this 20 July 2012

 When measuring the JPW do you melt it first so you are dealing with all liquids ? and isn't there a paste wax with Tree in the brand name that has a higher % of carnuba wax then JPW. ??  Also, has anyone to your knowledge ever done a side by side accuracy test between  TL and conventional  lubed bullets.  As a note, anyone going to make some 45/45/10,  I suggest the following, 1. Do it outside. not in a garage or shop OUTSIDE 2. Use an oversize pot where there is a low “loading density” to avoid any boil overs 3. put an Alum. pie pan or tin foil “bowl” under the pot, again to catch any “boil overs” from hitting the heating coil. 4.  The solvent  and it's fumes are very flammable

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onondaga posted this 20 July 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3610>Wayne S:

I measure the JPW hard. The ratios need not be that  exact, just equal parts JPW and LLA and the mineral spirits is added after the JPW and LLA have been melted and heated to evaporate the solvents.

Yes, there has been a lot of shooters comparison tests between tumble lube and pressure lube. Personally, I think the tests are unnecessary for a particular reason. The shooters that have invested a lot of money in Lubrisizers and dies and heaters and specific lubes are generally NOT going to be convinced that anything is equal or better.

Also shooters that do not optimize their bullet fit to throat and bore, or have bores that are not shiny slick for cast bullets and pay no attention to alloy relationship to load pressure are all shooters that belong to a special group. Their research is invalid for comparing bullet lubricants. When the bullets fit right. bore is slick and alloy is right, lube selection is very unimportant. Lead alone is a lubricious metal itself and really doesn't need a lot of help with lube if you have everything else right. 45:45:10 Recluse is a major convenience to the organized , knowledgeable and meticulous cast bullet shooter. Dumbbell cast bullet shooters seldom stumble upon perfect 10 shot groups. They are usually too busy looking for a scapegoat to blame instead of improving their skills.

Wayne, your safety concerns are very real when making 45:45:10 Recluse and common sense is certainly important. Do it outside with electric heat. Adjust heat so you are not boiling over a flammable liquid. It doesn't take a rolling vigorous boiling pot to cook off solvents. Wait till the JPW and LLA cool down before adding the Spirits. This is not kid stuff. Don't put the mix in new containers till is is completely cooled too.

I do this out on my porch and have a fire extinguisher handy. The smell is also HORRID and may cause respiratory distress -  keep your face out of it  and don't breathe the fumes. Again, common sense.

The Recluse lube lasts a long time, there is no need to make a large batch. I have never mixed more than one bottle of LLA with an equal volume of JPW and then 10 % spirits for a batch that yields two new bottles of 45:45:10. I shoot more than 100 Lbs of lead a year and 2 bottles of 45:45:10 lasts me over a year. Mixing and boiling a  quart of the stuff is dangerous and worse than silly in my opinion.

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 21 July 2012

Gary, Thanks for the explanation and instructions and thanks to Wayne S. for the safety comments. The explanation and pictures by Recluse that you provided a link to were also very informative.

As soon as I get my hands on some Johnson's paste wax, I will mix up a batch and try it.

Do other members know of other modifications to LLA or other tumble lubes on the market that may be of interest?

John

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onondaga posted this 21 July 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3610>Wayne S:

I reviewed the Recluse post on making 45:45:10 tumble lube again. He does use a liquid measurement of the JPW after it is melted and solvents are cooked off.  I haven't done it that way but will put measurement scratch marks in my melting pot to make that easier and give it a try.

The liquid measurement as Recluse mentions will put more Carnuba into the mix than I have been using and that is always a good thing with bullet lubricants. The higher amount of Carnuba will also make the lube even lighter in color too.

I have actually never had a boil over or fire mixing this stuff. I mix such a small batch in a relatively large pot and that  combined with medium low heat for the solvent cook-off has been very safe for me.

Recluse uses a round container for application of the 45:45:10. That is a small point to argue but I completely disagree with that because a square container really does aid in actually getting the bullets to tumble rather than swirl, so , the lube is distributed much more thoroughly. The earliest original basic Lee instructions for their LLA application mentioned a square container for application and that has stuck well with me.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander: I have seen some praised additives to 45:45:10 along the years One was a post claiming that the addition of a few percent per volume of Marvel Mystery Oil made a difference to increase velocity range of the lube. I can't verify that and have never had any velocity limit problems with 45:45:10 Recluse, but the Marvel Mystery Oil may help for shooters that have not optimized their bullet fit, bore condition and alloy selection when they are seeking high velocity.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 22 July 2012

I did some mental research today, digging in the part of my brain I call Hard Drive E.

There was another 2  innovative recipe modifications to 45:45:10 Recluse I recall that I have never tried but are very appealing. The 10% Mineral Spirits in the Formula has been completely substituted with 10% WD40. Hoppe's #9 has also been used in lieu of Mineral  Spirits.

Now WD40 is nearly all petroleum distillates, mineral spirits, a small percentage of rust preventative and a very powerful cover scent that real men need to have around them. WD40 cover scent has also been marketed in men's and women's fragrances because men just love the smell of the stuff. I personally dislike the smell of Hoppe's #9 and would never try it in my tumble lube.

I don't see the harm in substituting WD40 for the mineral spirits in the 45:45:10 Recluse formula at all and don't think it would be detrimental either.

The up-side is that the tumble lube bullet lubricant would then have an improved manly smell.

Gary

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Wayne S posted this 22 July 2012

 Since WD-40 is mostly Pet. distillates, wouldn't most of it's volume evaporate, leaving more like a 49/49, Might have to pick up a small can and see. Another option to combat the “tackiness” is the do a little   TL in a dry container with a little Motor Mica.

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onondaga posted this 23 July 2012

Wayne, You may be misunderstanding the directions for 45:45:10. First the solvents are cooked off from the JPW, then the LLA is added and cooked a little. Then the mix is cooled before adding the Mineral Spirits . The Mineral Spirits, or WD40 if you use that, is NOT cooked off just stirred in.

Gary

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Wayne S posted this 23 July 2012

 I see said the blind man, many thanks :dude:

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Dale53 posted this 24 July 2012

This week was my first use of 45-45-10 Recluse bullet lube. It is detailed here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1788449#post1788449

Dale3

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tturner53 posted this 07 January 2013

Anybody tried ATF in place of mineral spirits? I may have made one of those late night boo-boos. No MS, so I added a little ATF (Type F) to thin the LLA. Dipped a bunch of bullets, they aren't drying. Maybe I should have thought it thru a little more.

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pat i posted this 07 January 2013

Glenn Larson of White Label Lube is selling 45-45-10 by the quart for 15 bucks plus shipping. Here's a link to the thread since it's not on his website yet.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?174325-45-45-10-Big-Batch-almost-ready-)

I ordered and received a quart a few weeks back. A quart is probably more than you'll use in a lifetime. You'll save money and time buying it this way.

I made up a batch before I got the premade stuff and it was less sticky than the Lee lube but the Rooster Jacket shot better on the PB bullet I was playing with. Wish someone would bring that back.

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Pigslayer posted this 07 January 2013

I have used . . . & still do once in a while use LEE liquid alox. It works well and I really don't have much of a problem with the stickyness, I guess due to my leaving the lubed bullets out on waxed paper in a heated room for several days. Usually in my kitchen (no, I'm not married). I don't like the smell of the stuff . . . at all! I actually like my own bullet lube that I use in my lubrisizers. It is 1 1/2 lbs. filtered beeswax, 1 lb. vaseline, 5% carnuba flakes, 5% Ivory soap & whatever color large crayon that you choose. The hardness is between a SPG Lube & Carnuba Red. In a real cold room, heat should be used but at usual room temperature . . . none is needed. The summer heat does not seem to be a problem with stored lubed bullets. It stays in the lube grooves well and have noticed no leading in either rifle or pistol. Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Clod Hopper posted this 07 January 2013

I use the 45-45-10 mix only now. I had a lot of trouble with straight LLA not drying and then gumming up the seater die. This gumming of the seater die is no small problem as it will shorten the over all length, thus increasing pressures. To clean the die out, I have to run hot boiling water through it which is a PITA. The 45-45-10 stuff leaves an even coating of the correct thickness.

Dale M. Lock

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Wayne S posted this 07 January 2013

Several years ago ALL of my local stores were out of JPW, reading on cast boollits there seamed to be a nation wide shortage, and someone suggested TREWAX http://trewax.beaumontproducts.com/floor-care/trewax-paste-wax  so I got a can. there must be more Carnuba  in it as I'm at 40/40/20 and it's still a little tacky.  

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onondaga posted this 07 January 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3610>Wayne S: I don't believe upping the ratio on the Mineral Spirits will aid in lessening tackiness. It is the Alox that is the tacky stuff in the mix.

Application method effects tackiness. The thicker the application layer ,the more it will make your bullets tacky. 45:45:10 Recluse and even straight LLA are both surface lubes. The Recluse is vastly less tacky and very quick drying when applied warm with bullets warm also.

Very little of this lube is needed and over application does not improve performance.

I get the least tackiness with a popular method of application. I put my bullets in an aluminum brownie baking pan and turn my electric kitchen oven to warm. Put the bullets in for 5 minutes and they will be almost too hot to handle.

While the bullets are warming I also warm the lube in the microwave.  I nuke the small 4 ounce container with the top spout OPEN for 30 seconds . Take it out and shake . If not warm yet I may nuke it again 30 seconds or even a third time till I definitely feel the container is hot. Hot like hot tap water hot.

I put the warm bullets in my tumbling container and squirt a small amount lube on the bullets and tumble. Now look at the bullets carefully!! They only need to look wet evenly. I tumble them slowly for 1 minute. You should see vapor coming off them if the bullets and lube were warm enough----this is a good thing to see. They shouldn't be darker, just wet. The warmth of the bullets and the lube helps  it distribute the lube much more evenly on the bullets when you tumble them.

If you put enough lube on the bullets that you can see it running on the bullets, you have put at least twice much lube as you should have. They will be darker and they will be tackier when they dry if you had so much lube on tthat it was running.

If you put the right amount on warm, they will be dry, tack free and light in color in 5 minutes. The application controls tackiness. Compare your method to what I have suggested. Less lube and more heat and more tumbling time is likely all you need to do.

Gary

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99 Strajght posted this 07 January 2013

I have been using 45-45-10 for about 6 months now and can say it is the best I have ever used for lubing bullets for both rifle and pistol. I just happend to have a 5 gal. bucket of bowling ally wax which says carnuba wax on the label. Works so much better than straight Lee. I found 3 small electric tea pots that work just right for heating and mixing.

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tturner53 posted this 07 January 2013

Per my above post the lube still isn't dry. I know, it was dumb. I'll wash the ATF off with solvent and start over. Don't use ATF to thin LLA. I seem to remember (now) that it can be diluted with water.

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