I'm interested in making a 38 Special Wadcutter (Only) revolver. Likely candidate is a “K” frame S&W with a shortened cylinder and a lenghtened barrel. Does anyone out there in CB Land have such a piece? I'm especially interested in the cylinder length.
I'm also interested in hearing from anyone else who has experience with such a conversion.
Thanks in advance, Denny
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Sounds like a fun and worthwhile project. Sorry I have no useful info for you though. I had a nice old K38 that shot WCs very well, better than me. Let us have some pics if you get 'er going.
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In the 70's they built PPC guns on M10 S&W revolvers that were pretty much what you are looking to build :thumbsup:, might want to check around on the auction sites and see what is out there!
LOOK >>>
32ideal
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I have no financial or other interest in J-G Sales out of Prescott, AZ, (not Tucson as I stated erroneously a few days ago) other than as a satisfied customer. That being said, J-G is offering used S & W M-10s in regular or heavy barrel for about $200.
I have shot one of the heavy-barrel versions with target handloads, and found it to be seriously accurate. Many of the revolvers J-G gets are former police service pieces that have been carried a lot and shot just a little. They are also offering some stainless versions of the M-10--can't remember the right 60-series model number--that are DA only with bobbed hammers for about $250 as I recall.
If you are serious about a revolver to use as a foundation as you suggest, I'd look at J-G's web site.
Good shooting! RT
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With the difficulty and expense of getting really high quality wadcutter ammo these days, I'm not sure the effort needed to shorten the cylinder and extend the barrel farther through the frame opening is worth it. You can to very well with a conventional cylinder arrangement with proper forcing cone and bullets which fit, then the revolver is also useful for other ammo.
I've shot several short-cylinder wadcutter guns in both .32 S&W Long and .38 Special and they didn't shoot any better than properly set up PPC guns with proper barrel throating and perfect mechanical timing.
There are alot of really good used custom PPC revolvers which you can shop around for and buy for less than the cost of the gunsmithing work. I would seek one of those by a known maker.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed; That has pretty much been my experience, also. Money was tight “back in the day” when I was shooting PPC. I had a brand new Model 14 I bought from a friend (he had won it in a PPC match) at a really good price. I bought a Bomar rib and mounted it on the original barrel. I ended up with a “poor man's PPC gun” that served me very well for a number of years:
 but were no more accurate in my experience.</p>
<p>I had access to a Ransom Rest and rested many a PPC revolver with both factory WC loads as well as reloads.</p>
<p>Dale53</p>
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When I was at Ruger we did a great deal of testing with normal production DA revolvers trying to find the best configuration which worked well with either lead or jacketed ammo, and also when using .38 Special ammo in a .357 chamber vs. in a .38 Special chamber.
Most important of all is correct cylinder timing and alignment. After that comes bullet fit in the ball-seat of the cylinder.
Cylinder must “range” perfectly on all six charge holes with no “tickers” of the range rod.
Bullets must fit the ball seat to exact size. More than .0005 smaller or larger will enlarge groups due to bullet deformation.
Ball seat diameter should be no smaller than barrel groove diameter and should not be larger than .001 over SAAMI max. bullet diameter for lead bullets. When shooting jacketed bullets ONLY ball seat should be bullet size and not larger than max. bullet diameter. For jacketed it does not hurt if up the ball seat is as much as 0.0015 smaller than barrel groove diameter, tighter is better in calibers such as .30 M1 carbine and 9mm Luger when firedd in revolvers.
Diameter of forcing cone entrance should not exceed 1.05 times SAAMI max. bullet diameter, as larger forcing cone opening increases heat checking with jacketed magnum loads and leading with .38 Special loads.
For jacketed bullets forcing cone angle doesn't matter within reason if smooth and concentric and revolver is correctly timed.
For lead wadcutter bullets shallower forcing cone angle is better. 11 degrees was better than 18 degrees, but with perfect cylinder timing and bullet fit outstanding accuracy was obtained with 6 degrees included angle, also worked splendidly with all jacketed and magnum ammo.
Accuracy of .38 Special lead bullet ammo was improved in .357 chamber if shoulder angle at front end of chamber to ball seat transition was reduced from standard 15 degrees to 6 degrees included angle.
If standard SAAMI chambers are used .38 Special wadcutter ammo fired in .38 Special length chamber is about 15% tighter than firing same ammo in a .357 length chamber. With reduced transition angle at front of chamber difference was not significant.
Best guns in GP100 configuration would shoot sub-two inch 12-shot 50 yard groups with selected lots of magnum ammo from Ransom Rest and would also do so with good lots of target wadcutter. This equals experience with Colt Python and Officer's Model Match which was the standard of comparision. Design intent was to build a “poor Boy's Python."
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Thanks for your comments. Did you identify a “Best” recipe for 38 wad cutter ammo based on your testing?
Denny
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Thanks for your comments. Did you identify a “Best” recipe for 38 wad cutter ammo based on your testing?
Most accurate bullets are factory Remington HBWCs. Use unsized wadcutter brass, flush-seat, taper crimp only enough to remove mouth flare, profile in Lee Factory Crimp Die, adjust powder charge to 770 +/- 30 f.p.s. in SAAMI 4-inch vented test barrel with 0.008 gap, 800 +/- 30 in 6 inch revolver or 855 +/- 30 in 6-inch solid test barrel. Should be good for sub-1.5-inch ten-shot groups at 50 yards from single-shot heavy barrel Contender or BSA Cadet Martini with scope. With currently produced Alliant Bullseye charge weight will be 3.1+/-0.1 grs, vs. 2.8 with old Hercules product.
Using cast double-end wadcutter such as Saeco #348 alloy should be no harder than 12 BHN, 10 BHN is ideal. Load bullets as-cast and unsized at .360+, lubed with diluted Lee Liquid Alox cut 50-50 with mineral spirits, light coating only enough to turn them uniform brassy color all over. More lube opens groups. Seat bullets sprue cut up, to crimp groove, so that beveled front driving band is outside case mouth and hairline of crimp groove is visible. Load to 830 +/- 30 in 4 inch, or 870 +/- 30 in 6 inch revolver, using .38 S&W cowboy expander if necessary to size brass so bullets are tight fit. Profile with Lee Factory Crimp. Appropriate charge is 3.5 +/- 0.1 of Bullseye with current production. This is a full charge, but standard-pressure, not +P load suitable for any sound .38 Special.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed Harris; It sure shoots good in MY revolver. Ten shots, standing at 50 feet (3.5 grs of Bullseye with front band out of the case, taper crimped on trailing edge of front band - the bullet is a H&G #251 dbl ended W/C 150 grs):
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Thanks for your comments. Did you identify a “Best” recipe for 38 wad cutter ammo based on your testing?
Most accurate bullets are factory Remington HBWCs. Use unsized wadcutter brass, flush-seat, taper crimp only enough to remove mouth flare, profile in Lee Factory Crimp Die, adjust powder charge to 770 +/- 30 f.p.s. in SAAMI 4-inch vented test barrel with 0.008 gap, 800 +/- 30 in 6 inch revolver or 855 +/- 30 in 6-inch solid test barrel. Should be good for sub-1.5-inch ten-shot groups at 50 yards from single-shot heavy barrel Contender or BSA Cadet Martini with scope. With currently produced Alliant Bullseye charge weight will be 3.1+/-0.1 grs, vs. 2.8 with old Hercules product.
Using cast double-end wadcutter such as Saeco #348 alloy should be no harder than 12 BHN, 10 BHN is ideal. Load bullets as-cast and unsized at .360+, lubed with diluted Lee Liquid Alox cut 50-50 with mineral spirits, light coating only enough to turn them uniform brassy color all over. More lube opens groups. Seat bullets sprue cut up, to crimp groove, so that beveled front driving band is outside case mouth and hairline of crimp groove is visible. Load to 830 +/- 30 in 4 inch, or 870 +/- 30 in 6 inch revolver, using .38 S&W cowboy expander if necessary to size brass so bullets are tight fit. Profile with Lee Factory Crimp. Appropriate charge is 3.5 +/- 0.1 of Bullseye with current production. This is a full charge, but standard-pressure, not +P load suitable for any sound .38 Special.
:dude: Ed, more great advice that I can not wait to try out.
I have a stock Model 14 HB that is amazingly accurate with my standard load: Hornady 148 HBWC loaded similar to what you described, with 3.4 gr HP-38. Oh, and I have still not found WC brass, so I just use “uncannulerred” Starline brass.
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Just this little snip-it of information alone was well worth the price of membership. Where else can you get this type of information from real world experience? No where I have found.
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I have a question regarding Ed's post above particularly the use of a range rod. I have a few tools from Brownell's, including a burnishing rod which I have never used. I was going to burnish something but don't remember what! It's time to get out the Kuhnhausen book I guess. My question is what diameter is a range rod for a .38/.357? The Brownell's catalog does not give a diameter. I have an 8 1/4” squibb rod that is .345". I don't know the bore dimension of my 6” Model 19-5 but was wondering if there was a way to use the squibb rod for a range rod to at least check for service grade specs if not match grade. The gun isn't spitting or shaving that I can see, but now I'm curious about the alignment. Will I have to spring for the range rod to know? Thankyou for your indulgence, I confess to knowing very little about this stuff.
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The usual diameter of a range rod for checking cylinder alignment is 0.001 less than barrel bore diameter. Exact diameter depends upon the finished barrel dimensions, which can vary based on the rifling method used and manufacturing tolerances.
For production work at Ruger we used a threaded handle which could be used with any of an assortment of carbide plugs graduated in 0.001 inch increments. Plug size was determined by feel, selecting the largest plug which would slide entirely through the bore of its own weight. Sometimes a plug might stick in a tight spot, if there were a constriction caused by over-tightening the barrel in the frame.
The Brownell range rods are dimensioned to work in most broach-cut S&W and Ruger barrels to give good results, but may be less precise in custom button rifled barrels having shallower rifling or larger nominal bore diameters. The
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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