9mm 1911

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  • Last Post 15 August 2010
chuckstur posted this 01 July 2010

My CB work with a 6 month old Springfield Loaded 1911 has been disappointing.  I tried a wide range of 115, 125, 147 loads and never got under 5” @ 25 yards.  I just made a chamber cast and found the bore .356 to .357.  Am I wasting my time trying larger bullets and should I just go to a Kart or BarSto barrel or forget it and go back to the 45ACP? 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 02 July 2010

I have a 911 made by Armando Piscetta's,Adler Sport,with barrels in 45 HP,45ACP and 38 superauto.It has a convertible bolt face.

The 38SA shoots decently 38SA brass and 9x21 brass,I think your difficulty comes from the too short 9mm Luger case.

In a 911 you might lenghten the cartridge throat and seat the bullets more forward.,as you have more space in the magazines.

 

The only positive aspect in the 9mm rouds is they are cheap to shoot , ammo is lighter and I can abandon the brass at the range.

The 45ACP is the one I like best.

 

 

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Pete Voss posted this 02 July 2010

Hey, Georgio--could you give us an idea of what it takes to be a shooter in Italy? Especially how difficult is it to own and shoot such a wide-ranging assortment of guns as you do? Most of us here in the U.S. think of Europe as being about as gun-friendly as NYC or Wash. DC. Do you have to deal with massive amounts of red tape?

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chuckstur posted this 02 July 2010

Giorgio:

There are 9mm guns used in bullseye competition that will shoot 1” at 50 yards.  Many stock 9mm guns will shoot 2' at 25 yards with lead bullets. I see them every weekend.  The cartridge itself is not inherently inaccurate.  It is the good or bad combination of the particular round, barrel dimensions, and gun quality that determines accuracy.   

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giorgio de galleani posted this 02 July 2010

There may  be accurate 9mm pistol & ammo combos,I have heard praises of the Swiss Lugers and SIG army pistols.But I have never seen one.

No one uses 9mm or 38sp in bullseye competition in Italy,they use orthopaedic 32 S&W pistols.

The usual run of the mill 9x21 pistol and the current  factory ammo ammo are good  enough for short range action shooting,( a polite way to say: lousy accuracy). 

Commercially cast bullets are too hard and too small (356 dia)and reloaders follow blindly  some written  translations of the old lyman manuals.

The pistols have the too steep  old style 1/10 rifling twist

Leading and poor accuracy follows.

I have a Browning HP that shoots decently cast bullets,at low cost,and I pick up bushels of free brass at my range.

But my favourite autos ,for home protection and pin shooting are my 911 45ACP pistols.

 

 

Presently in Italy we have Gun control laws ,obviously idiot laws,I have  a licence that allows me to carry loaded long guns during  the hunting season .

I am allowed to transport any legal unloaded and cased gun and ammo to any legal place to shoot.

In the past years concealed carry licences were relatively easy to obtain ,for doctors or people carrying large amounts of cash,presently only jewelry traders and selected friends of the police  have concealed carry licences.

We can buy and keep the guns that a club of big makers and importers have put in a

Great Rifled Gun Catalog,with about 15000 catalog numbers.

A friend has two (semiauto only ) H&K MP5 submachine guns in 9x21,their price is from 2500 to 4500 euros,it depends on the maker.

Changing barrels of different calibers to a rifle is a major crime,as is shortening its barrel.

Decent people are discouraged  by the big towns police,when they want to buy guns,but I  always lived in  small villages and being a National health Service doctor the local Carabinieri ( the rurales) have always treated me with  the respect I have always have used with them on the many occasions we worked together.

I am told that in France they have even funnier gun control laws,they cannot have old military WWI rifles in they original caliber,they have M14 in 243 ,garands in 270,7mm mausers in 7x64 instead of 7x57 .

In Great Britain they cannot have any gun at home ,they keep their rifled guns in their gun clubs.Their suburbs are full of knife fighting teen agers. 

They had their ruling class,the best men, wiped out in the two Worl Wars ,and the  surviving Britons  are very low quality. QI.

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 02 July 2010

Picture of an accurate pistol.

S&W N frame double action revolver.

Good revolvers are accurate guns,I am happy when the auto pistols feed and go bang every time.

All members are free to disagree with me,and hurrah for the second amendement.

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CB posted this 02 July 2010

I have a 1911 that is one of the most accurate pistols I own. It is tricked out with a match grade barrel and compensator.

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Dale53 posted this 04 July 2010

To the original poster. Note that I am NOT an expert on the 9mm. However, one of the problems with 9mm is the varying capacities of the various brand cases. This will often cause serious accuracy problems. Sorting cases by one brand will help.

Often the major problem is under size bullets for a particular gun. Often, .358” bullets work better in particular barrels. Take a case FIRED IN YOUR PISTOL and see if you can insert a .358” sized bullet with your fingers. If so, it is safe to shoot with that larger diameter. Then, try the larger bullet. I have seen cases where the barrel's groove diameter calls for .358” bullets but the chamber will not allow the larger bullets. In that case, rechambering is the only answer.

I have seen military 1911's in .45 ACP that would only shoot 5” groups at 25 yards with ANY ammo. Yet, I have a couple of “built up” 1911's with match barrels that will shoot under 2½” at 50 yards and well under an 1” at 25 yards.

Any of the better lubes will work with conventional cast bullets. I use Lars White Label Carnauba Red, but NRA formula alox/beeswax 50/50 also works well as does LBT Blue.

FWIW Dale53

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chuckstur posted this 04 July 2010

Gentlemen: Thanks for the feedback both here and through PM. The Cerrosafe chamber casts that showed .356 to .357 afor a few days after they cooled now show a full .358. The stuff really does swell with time. I turned a soft lead .44 bullet to just fit the bore and compressed it by hitting similarly sized aluminum rod(s) with a 16 ounce hammer. The lead clearly measurers .356 to .3565. A second test at the muzzle gave the same results. My chamber is .002 under specs so now I will explore the chamber issue dale brought up. Regards, C

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cityboy posted this 04 July 2010

In my opinion, the 45acp is the best round for the 1911. It is accurate, easy to load for and there is a large assortment of bullets to choose from. I shot one in competition for about 40 years and it was very dependable.

Jim

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Jeff Michel posted this 05 July 2010

You could check out the article at CastBullet pics about reloading 9mm in a Ruger Blackhawk revolver. Some pretty interesting insight on cast bullets in a 9mm. Jeff

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raytear posted this 05 July 2010

Chuckstur,

In a recent article by Mike Venturino---yes I know many on these CBA forums do not care for Mike---did some testing of 9mm pistols. His experience was that many of the guns he shot had bores in the .356-358 range. His solution was to use bullets in the diameters normally used in .38 Sp or .357 Mag, but closer to standard 9mm in weight. When he used the fatter slugs his results improved. FWIW

Good shooting!:coolgun: RT

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GBertolet posted this 05 July 2010

I have read the same article my Mike about the 9mm, along with other WW2 handgun calibers. I agree with his findings that the larger diameter cast bullets shoot best. .357 to .358 provided they will chamber in your gun. In most cases they will. He found the load of 3.9 gr of Bullseye, with bullets in the 120 to 125 gr range shot best in many of his test guns. I have a Hi-Power and the accuracy claim of this load proved to be true for me. 3.9 gr of Bullseye and the Lyman 356402 which drops at 357 from the mold, and sized and lubed to the same. Not one holers, but 2 inch range at 25 yards from a rest.

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tturner53 posted this 05 July 2010

Jeff Michel wrote: You could check out the article at CastBullet pics about reloading 9mm in a Ruger Blackhawk revolver. Some pretty interesting insight on cast bullets in a 9mm. Jeff Great tip! I jumped right over there since I have a 9mm BH convertible. Cast loads have been dismal but now I have new hope, will try again. One of beagle's(the author) main points is the availability of cheap brass. I've often wondered how a box of 50 new 9mm American fmj can cost about the same as 20 .223. I don't think the price of ammo has anything to do with the cost of manufacturing it. Anyway, back on the 9mm cast BH deal. I got a Lee 6 cav. 125 gr mold for triple duty in several different guns, I'll try it at .358” in my BH. There's also a side story there about the “9mm Special", a very cool idea.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 05 July 2010

Many are the called ,but the elected are few.

MY great cast bullet guru,Ed Harris issued many years ago his words ,to be carved in stone,about the  9mm with cast bullets.

His most humble disciple is affected by good old Von Alzheimer desease,so his memory is fallacious. 

One story was published in one of the two Wolfe's magazines,and it was a degree Thesis  dicussion.as  we use in Italy.

Let the faithful disciples  dig in wolfe's article index and find the work.More useful than the Rosetta Stone.

And the GURU published at least two more short works on the same subject on the fowling shot,and go and search in the fouling shot index and find them.

Do not disturb the Guru,he is presently moving from his home to the mountains of West Virginia.

NOTHING BEATS THE CARTACEOUS SEARCH:

This method of posting a question on the web and hoping to get wisdom from an improvised reply from the web users is condemned by me as wicked and sinful, because you often get replies that drift you from the straight narrow way.

Ed explains all the problems and the difficulties of the 9 mm Luger cartridges and guns,that begins from chamber sizes,saami specs,Nato specs and the German Waffenamt specs of the infamous national socialist german workers party,and the specs of His Majesty's Armed services and here I stop because all those people made the guns as they liked best,without any communications between them.

The 9mm guns,in my eyes have only one positive aspect,they are cheaper to shoot than the Divine 45ACP,because thy use less lead and I can find bushels of their (9x21 )brass abandoned by the non reloading civilian private security guards.

You who are blessed by living in the US of A,can also get tons of cheap 9 luger surplus ammo.And money is money.

BUT YOU ,who are the countrymen of John Moses Browning,and of his 45 ACP, ,believe me the 9 mm is only a training caliber, better than the pinxy daisy fairy 22LR,of course.

When the chips are down shoot a 45ACP or a 357 magnum revolver.

Please do not mention the small 40 cartridges in my presence,I might present a sharp knife,and I know where and what is to be cut away.

Here I am happily cleaning the 5 pin table with a 357 model 27

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 05 July 2010

And here your old windy  fellow is shooting his pin gun a compensated 911 gun put together wit ww II GI parts from good old Armando Piscetta,well known by Italian shooters and US  western replica shooters.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 05 July 2010

When I approched the firing line ,with the 357,the range officer ordered to set back the pins to  have me competing compete along with the 9 mm toting fellows,I stopped everyone at once ,DO NOT MIX the 357 magnum with the small anaemic 9 mm auto.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 05 July 2010

Here's a side match ,at the Casale Monferrato second pin match,you should be able to make four Mozambiques in the paper targets,and four in each plates even with your Ltman Manual 9 mm loads.

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raytear posted this 06 July 2010

Giorgio,

Relax, take a pill, have a glass of your favorite adult beverage. No one here is comparing the 9 mickey mouse with the .45 All Clobbering/Conquering Pistol. I am with you: 9-mickey-mice have their place, just not for serious defense work in a pistol. If only larger calibers counted, then why bother with, say, .22 RFs?
Since they were forced to change, I am glad that the US military waited until I had left their employ before switching to the 9mm. Had I been on the ordinance board I'd have held out for an updated M-1911 in .45.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 06 July 2010

I took a rest,after sunday pin match,took my dozen heart& pressure pills (unfortunately there are no effective pills against Alzheimer) and sipped a wee glass of my favourite Grappa.

Or two,I do not remember exactly. and will put my 45 ACP master blaster and pull out my Browning HP ( always a child of good old  John Moses Browning) and make some 9x21 quiet training loads.

My pistolsmith in Turin has called this morning,My M1 carbine is ready and my 911

38 superauto is ready too.

I'll go and fetch them,soon  in the morning fresh air,having got only a real Cappuccino and brioche.

The two 9mm guns have steep throat angles,and I'll try a Clymer  throating reamer,to be able to  seat 357  conical bullets well forward in the case..

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tturner53 posted this 06 July 2010

I am sorry to hear you have the Alzheimers, may you win that battle and live a long and happy life. I see you do approve of the Browning Hi-Power 9mm, you have excellent tastes in guns. Perhaps you have heard of the Tanfoglio CZ75 clones? They are Italian made for EAA, an American Importer. I've had mine about 25 yrs. and love it. It came in 9mm and had a conversion kit for the .41 AE cartridge, one of my favorite pistol cartridges, sadly now defunct. The .41 AE has a rebated rim that is the same as a 9mm rim, so all you need to change calibers is a barrel, heavier recoil spring and magazine. Nowadays new .41 AE brass is about $1 each, if you can find it at all, so I guard mine carefully and use it gently. The Tanfoglio (in 9mm) helped me win some runnin' and gunnin' type matches back in my gunslinger days, now it is an old friend to play with and occasionally shoot. I also shoot cast bullets in a Ruger Black Hawk convertible 9mm, but have yet to perfect that process. When I do, I will have a nice single action six shooter that is almost free to shoot, considering the availability of 9mm brass. I would like to get a 9mm carbine too, maybe the Marlin or the newer plastic thing. I don't 'need' it, just want one. Finally, I agree the .45 1911 is the gun to have when the chips are down, but like they say, “Variety is the spice of life."

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