.5 MOA Barrier in Cast BR Accuracy

Standard Member

Shuz posted this 14 August 2023

In my case, it's me, "the nut behind the trigger"😉

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45 2.1 posted this 14 August 2023

Finding the right bullet... that fits that rifle properly. Not the gun or the load as there are quite a few commercial rifles that will perform.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 14 August 2023

I don't know if it's a real physical barrier or not. That is a possibility but I am skeptical.

I don't think in will be broken until we have at least a few shooters interested in rigorous experimentation and sharing what they learn, with other like minded experimenters, by publishing the details and the results of their experiment, so others can build on what they have found

The situation we have now is our best shooters shooting rifles that have the best chance of consistently of shooting more than half of their groups under 0.5" for five shot groups at 100 yards (Heavy, and unrestricted rifles and pistol classes) are not doing the type of experimentation that will do the job. Trivial comparisons of powders, primers, alloys or loads for their own personal or the search for uniformity carried to silly extremes won't do it.

If some of them are experimenting they sure aren't sharing what they learn. When was the last time you saw such an article, or any article, in the Fouling Shot, or any where else, from the shooters who win in heavy or the unrestricted classes?

We are stuck at half an inch until the changes.

John

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Match Director

linoww posted this 14 August 2023

Finding the right bullet... that fits that rifle properly. Not the gun or the load as there are quite a few commercial rifles that will perform.

bullet fit for sure but having been to many cast matches over the years I'd say few commercial rifles are capable. Most full BR rifles and Schuetzen Rifles are not doing it consistently with custom barrels, chambers and swage dies to match(GC BR guns).

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 14 August 2023

IMHO, it is the material the bullet is made from.

Why else would my CZ .223 shoot less than .5" at least three out of four groups with jacketed bullets. Same day and same shooter with cast will shoot half into less than an inch and the rest just over an inch. One dry patch and back to jacketed bullets and small groups again.

I'm too old to go looking for 100% consistent bullet launch from a case.

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CBA Member

Aaron posted this 14 August 2023

The next shot.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 14 August 2023

This is coming from someone who won't live long enough to know half of what you all know so take this with a grain of salt. Shooting on my range, in conditions I choose to shoot in, I hit a wall.

I'm picking at the minutia around molds, bullet to bore fit, casting methods, bullet base, neck tension etc and I can't say there's been a major breakthrough. I'll be the first to grant you that all of the above (as well as reloading equipment, bench equipment, bench discipline) are a prerequisite to shooting small 5 shot aggregates. In fact without the basics you won't even break an aggregate under an inch.

This is a data grab from the last two Nationals. What's listed is the top 15 14 five shot 100 yard aggregates for the years 2021 and 2022. These 15 aggregates were shot by 12 different shooters. I've jumped to the conclusion that all 12 have their equipment and technique sorted out and that they are serious competitors trying really hard. All but Chuck Duncan (Hunter Class) were shooting custom stocks and custom barrels which makes sense. I expect smaller groups from custom rigs.

Bullet selection in cast competition (setting aside PB) is everything from conical to spritzer to borerider. Which also makes sense. Bullet to bore fit will be different for every reamer. I won't even ask how Chuck broke a half inch agg with a factory rifle.

I enjoy chasing cast accuracy.

Bill Cook.

Adjusted 08.15.23 9:44pm

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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OU812 posted this 14 August 2023

When a mould maker offers moulds that are deigned to be bumped, along with bump dies and matching throat reamers. NOE could offer this to public.

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CBA Member

45 2.1 posted this 14 August 2023

bullet fit for sure but having been to many cast matches over the years I'd say few commercial rifles are capable. Most full BR rifles and Schuetzen Rifles are not doing it consistently with custom barrels, chambers and swage dies to match(GC BR guns).

I'm too old to go looking for 100% consistent bullet launch from a case.

When a mould maker offers moulds that are deigned to be bumped, along with bump dies and matching throat reamers. NOE could offer this to public.

The main part of the problem is the throat of the rifle you are using doesn't match your bullet. The more you shoot higher antimony alloys, the faster the throat erodes and changes shape and doesn't conform the bullet in a short enough time to be useful. This happens a lot, to every rifle out there. There are a very few molds that do match several rifles out there, but I sure don't see their use in match results. If you've taken enough impact throat slugs of various new and worn same 0.30 caliber rifles, you should see this and you would see that some points in the throat wear to the same dimension so you can match them to certain bullets. Lyman has a couple of molds that do this and MP has several...................

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Match Director

linoww posted this 15 August 2023

"The main part of the problem is the throat of the rifle you are using doesn't match your bullet"

CBA heavy class shooters have been matching bullet to throat for years.Matched with a bump/taper die adjustments can be made for throat wear. Larry Jennings had 3 setbacks on his Hart 30BR Stolle before it was replaced. He told me there was about 10k per setback.His load IIRC in his 30BR (Ardito throat) was the Eagan MX4 Ardito and a case full of 3032 running about 2100. We lost Larry too soon,he really helped some 28 Y.O. kid i knew 😀 understand real accuracy and cast bullets.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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45 2.1 posted this 15 August 2023

The situation we have now is our best shooters shooting rifles that have the best chance of consistently of shooting more than half of their groups under 0.5" for five shot groups at 100 yards (Heavy, and unrestricted rifles and pistol classes) are not doing the type of experimentation that will do the job. Trivial comparisons of powders, primers, alloys or loads for their own personal or the search for uniformity carried to silly extremes won't do it.

If some of them are experimenting they sure aren't sharing what they learn. When was the last time you saw such an article, or any article, in the Fouling Shot, or any where else, from the shooters who win in heavy or the unrestricted classes?

We are stuck at half an inch until the changes.

John

linoww, ya need to read what John Alexander wrote above. Argue with him if you want. I do mine with straight unaltered commercial rifles, not what you said. It seems you'all are in the same sinking boat.

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CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 15 August 2023

there is something " slightly " wrong with our bullets as they leave the barrel.

looking at targets is finding out what happened AFTER it happened. we need to know WHY the bullets become distorted.

we need to examine bullets after they exit the muzzle but before they smash into the target.

we have tried to catch them gently in water and oily sawdust ...with some useful results. useful in determining why we get 3 inch groups ... but not enough resolution to find errors enlarging 0.25 moa groups to 0.85 groups.

with enough genius ... or more likely money ... maybe we need to examine fired bullets that have not been deformed by catching them. high speed cameras ??? Sadly, there is not enough money in cast bullets to finance much of a formal investigation into the " 0.5 minute " barrier ....

but there is a cousin ... naughty sister ... of cast bullets that has had probably the most development of lead bullet maximum accuracy ...

the 22 rimfire match cartridges. you can buy a crate of 5000 rounds that shoot mostly 1/2 moa ... most in fact well under that ... like the golden goose, you can buy a box, take them all apart, and not find any fairy dust or notes from God that makes them so good .. i know, i have di-sected a bunch ... trisected, quadsected ... no angel wings ...

the 22 rf bullet ? .... so perfect bullets are the secret ? ... but lousy cheap 22 rf cartridges that shoot 2-6 moa have perfect bullets too .... and we can cast perfect bullets from a good mold ... or swage perfect bullets from castings or billet lead ... still the 1/2 moa force field ...

**********************

the above are just some thoughts ... I have been trying to link the 22rf miracle and my own modest attempts at improving cast accuracy ... linking linking .... poof ! ...

ken

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Match Director

linoww posted this 15 August 2023

Ken Campbell

do you remember Merill Martin's sawdust box he'd catch fired bullets in? I wish I could find the articles, they were really interesting! He was playing around with migrating lube in the grooves, making lube dams in the grooves and all kinds of weird stuff.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Bud Hyett posted this 15 August 2023

Ken Campbell do you remember Merrill Martin's sawdust box he'd catch fired bullets in?

While I was still in Illinois and before we both joined the CBA, Ed Doonan built a bullet recovery box. It was eight feet long and two feet square filled with oiled sawdust. The entry was foam rubber in the shape of a funnel like a fish trap using foam rubber. This was soon modified to add a cut every two feet to insert waxed paper to see how far the bullet traveled.

The rifling marks are interesting as they show skidding as the bullet enters the rifling, gas cutting, powder kernel marks on a plain base bullet, etc. The only bullets that made the entire eight foot length were: .30-'06 AP, .30-'06 National Match, and .45-70 500 grain round-nose.

This is a worthy endeavor but you'll spend all day recovering and little shooting. As more people joined us to shoot at Windhill, we lost interest in the box.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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RicinYakima posted this 15 August 2023

We did similar when developing cast bullet hand loads for NRA Bullseye shooting. There was always some widening of the land tracks on the first drive band, which finally discovered was from the leade from case into bore. Hard or soft alloy made no difference, the length was almost always the length of the taper in the barrel. The oiled sawdust box has been around since the 1930's for police work.

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Paul Pollard posted this 15 August 2023

Attached are a couple targets from 2014. These were leftover loaded rounds from the national match. My 5 shot groups at the nationals weren't anything to brag about. I shot these after I got home. The 10 group agg is 0.4975.

Keep in mind that this was not shot in competition. There were no witnesses. There is no proof. Nobody knows about these groups.The groups and agg do not exist. It never happened.

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linoww posted this 15 August 2023

What were the load and cartridge details? That's a pretty nice shooting.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 15 August 2023

If you would allow; a couple comments, questions.

1) Ken said:

do you remember Merill Martin's sawdust box he'd catch fired bullets in?

I trap a lot of bullets albeit at subsonic velocities to determine bearing length but I guess the low velocity their shot makes them of no value to determine the obturation that occurs when they are shot super sonic. In my case the bullets are trapped with folded towels in a elongated box maybe 12x12x24. So my question is pretty simple. Can the maintained uniformity of a fired cast bullet be of any value if its shot at sub sonic velocities?

2) Paul Pollard and his wife shot the nationals in 2022. Joan came in second UnR with a .559 and Paul took first in UnP with a .607. In a previous post on the subject of uniforming bullet bases Paul wrote:

My wife’s rifle and Ed’s were chambered with the same reamer and we had identical molds.

With what little I know it appears to me that match grade bullets and how match grade bullets fit the bore a critical variables towards cast accuracy.

But I can't remember too many post in the two years that I've been a CBA member that drilled down on the subject matter of reamers, reamer prints and matching with a corresponding custom molds. I'm sure there were articles but just don't remember them. If John or anyone else can point them out I'd appreciate it.

My question is this; does the restrictions placed on factory and production class competition limit the the development of chamber modification to the average shooter. I'm starting to settle into the thinking that most Production class rifle that uses what options the rules allow will most likely be limited to shooting .6's to .9 aggregates in select conditions.

I lengthened the freebore on my Savage so I could try the conical shapes from Accurate (220G and 220F) but cutting a new chamber specific for a custom mold would require setting the barrel back. Wouldn't it?

The cost difference here is significant. Setting back a production class barrel with a custom reamer and matching it with a custom mold is peanuts compared to a full custom HV or UnR rig. A HV or UnR platform built with modern equipment (Bat action, Krieger / Bartlein barrel, Scoville stock) will push $4 - $5 thousand. Bill C.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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CBA Member

Paul Pollard posted this 15 August 2023

6 ppc. Eagan MX2-243, Linotype. Lapua 220 Russian cases, Fed 205 primer. Stolle Polar, 26" Shilen barrel, 1:14 twist. I'm not sure what iteration of the one piece rest was in at the time. It took about 8 modifications to get it what is close to "right."

OAL: 2.215

Harrel's clicks: 32.0

Grains: 17.7

Powder: H4198

Nose: 0.238

Front band: .242

Rear Band: .244

Gas Check: .244

Evidently, there was no National Match in 2014. The info is not in the match data on the website.

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Admin Admin

Jeffrey54776 posted this 15 August 2023

Keep it clean gents. One and only warning about keyboard warrior comments.

Jeffrey Sechrist Co-Webmaster

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 15 August 2023

"My question is this; does the restrictions placed on factory and production class competition limit the the development of chamber modification to the average shooter. "

Yes it does. The class is for Production rifles with production chambers only.

I'm starting to settle into the thinking that most Production class rifle that uses what options the rules allow will most likely be limited to shooting .6's to .9 aggregates in select conditions.

Well, yes it will. The class is for shooting skill, not equipment races. There are the other classes for those that want to build the best equipment.

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45 2.1 posted this 15 August 2023

Insults... hardly. I've seen these so called super claims performed by CBA members setting at the bench after matches. 100 year old Ballard rifles with plug seated bullets in the bore followed by a charged case, a miller action 32-40 shooting groups by others when invited to by one of the owners of Lock, Stock and Barrel and others.... both people shooting groups under 1/2" easily and repeatedly. Their match scores weren't as good, but the equipment was. You go enough places and you can see a lot of things you think that are impossible, even when they aren't from a certain place or organization. I guess only match results count to some people.

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CBA Member

pat i. posted this 16 August 2023

Bill Cook I was looking at your list of results from the 21 and 22 nationals and the hunter class results seemed a little suspicious. So looking at the results myself it seems Chuck Duncan was shooting in two classes, HNT and UNR, or there are 2 Chuck Duncans. The results you posted in your chart are for his UNR results. Not that his HNTing class scores were bad but far from a 1/2 inch agg. John Alexander won most of the hunter class matches, and that's with a 223 which is really amazing. A simple mistake but I wanted to clear up the record.

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Match Director

linoww posted this 16 August 2023

this is the BR scores from the just finished ISSA National Schuetzen match in Raton .The top shooters were there and shot amazing. The 25 ring is .75 MOA at 200 yards. There were *NO* perfect 250 targets These were the best of the best.

if these guys can't do it on command I'd say its a good indicator it's not too easy or common.

when a competitor shoots his first 250 guys at the match sign the target and picures are taken . it's a big deal!

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 16 August 2023

If it is not shot on paper before other shooters, it doesn't exist.

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CBA Member

pat i. posted this 16 August 2023

George do they use the same 3/4 inch 25 ring for 100 and 200 yards or do they use the 24 ring as a 25 at 200 yards?

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 16 August 2023

Thanks Pat. Both Duncan’s are good but seeing Chuck shooting two classes at once and seeing a sub .5MOA factory agg had me bewildered. Went back twice and still got the number wrong. I like to think that I'm better than that.

I think everyone is right to question postings that describe repeated small groups that can be or have been shot with whatever parameters described. I believe that aggregates shot in competition set the level for accuracy. Bill.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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linoww posted this 16 August 2023

I don't recall the 100 yard target. I'll dig one up

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 20 August 2023

Ken,

One of Merrill’s projects was the use of wads under the bullet in smokeless loads using straight walled cases. I have copies of the Precision Shooting magazine (long out of print) wad articles that he did. He had some interesting theories and results. He even GAVE sets of varying grades of abrasive for shooters to prep their bores with, following his instructions.

At the time I didn’t know anything about Scheutzen rifles, but looking back, the use of straight walled cases, might infer he was focusing on the Scheutzen world. Not sure.

Tom

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linoww posted this 20 August 2023

Tom,he was at one time using a breech seat 6.5 Caliber based on the 22 Hornet. It was called the 6.5 Escargot. "a snail with a little class"

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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.5 MOA Barrier in Cast BR Accuracy

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