257 25-06 120 grain Hollow Point by Erik O. tech support

  • 3.1K Views
  • Last Post 21 February 2024
corerf posted this 16 March 2009

I have contracted Erik at HP molds to HP one cavity of the RCBS 257/120 gr FT. I have built a 25-06 AI on an Encore system with Bullberry barrel. Twist is 1-10 so long bullets are happier than short.

 

My intent with the mod is to get good to very good expansion with the rifle on coyote at 200 yds +. Maybe I am nuts. I have no issues with hitting the target, but simply having a solid bullet go THRU a dog does not lend itself to humane kills. I am lookignfor the violent Barnes varmint grenade type of action but cast!! I now I am maybe stretching the requirement refering to Barnes VG bullets, but thats the effect. Not knockdown, it's have a ton at 100 yds. More trauma in tissue, bloodletting,that sort of effect. In the LASC articles, the Lyman devastators fired into water, they look like roses fired at 100 MPH. Really opened up, scarry the trauma they would have caused. The pictures are nbasty looking. thats what I am looing for.

 

So I have given Erik the design job of modding the 120 grainer with an HP on a larger meplat. Most loading data that can be found is based on 100 gr, Saeco is the only mold mfgr to date with an applicable mold. I opted not to go that route.

 

Here are the questions:

 

Erik is putting up to .19 meplat on the bullet with a fairly significant HOLE in it. The hole has been defined as one that at 2500 FPS, it would NOT blow the bullet up midflight. I am looking for starting data on SLOW powders, such as 4895, varget, BL-C2, etc. Ones similar to the pressure/vel curves used by R. Lee in the Second Edition for the cast bullet section. Pressure is under 40kpsi, vels pushing 2800 fps (I know it's going to lead, but how many dogs can one kill on a single stand!!) Generic references to work up from would help. I don't shoot Accurate Arms powder. I have 4831, H4895, WW2 4895, BL-C2, Varget, Reloader 19 , Win Mag Rifle (yep 2 pounds), 4350, etc.

 

Secondly with a check, looking for max vel but WANTING FRAGMENTATION and bullet separation, what should the hardness (strength) be at. If the check is protecting the base, white label 2700+ carnuba red lubed with a good fit, should the bullet be SOFT or HARD. I don't want to waste Lino on these bullets if I can help it.

 

Third, with leading....... what velocities MIGHT I get with a 120 gr bullet and slow powder??? The Lyman 45 or 48 handbook shows at 29kPSI, pistol powder producing about 2200 fps. Similalry, I ahev gone slow powder in my 357 to boost vels beyond what most people shoot, 1300 fps + at 158 gr, plain base, with very good accuracy and leading that is easy to deal with. Bullets go thru rabbits at 100 yds, they are SWC's. Bullets are REAL hard, but not moving fast enough to fragment. there are NOT brittle. They are heat treated ww, mono and EH shot.

 

Can I do the same sort of pressure curve with this bullet on slow powders??

 

Fourth, do I need 2500 plus FPS to get the bomb to go off on impact, full fragmentation?? Will the bullet seriously deform and lower velocities in flesh without bone?? And if so, what BHN/alloy level would do so??? I have read the LASC pistol HP articles, thats fine but the velocities are lower, HPs are HUGE cavities and ballistically challenged calibers are used like 44 mag. It's not flat at 200 yds, unlike a .320 BC bullet will go at 2500+ velocity.

 

Thats a mouthfull I have spewed, hoping to catch the interest of the wise ones. I don't want to be restricted to 100gr jacketed spitzers the rest of my life, as accurate as they may be. They are expensive. Powder consumption is a NON issue. I will burn ANY amount of slow powder the case will hold to get the job done effectively. It's a hunting gun, not a bench gun. I can't kill enough dogs in a year to warrant speeding the powder up and sacrificing velocity and trajectory.

 

Thansk in advance

 

Mike, the nutty one

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
linoww posted this 16 March 2009

"Secondly with a check, looking for max vel but WANTING FRAGMENTATION and bullet separation, what should the hardness (strength) be at"

 

I cast my 22's out of linotype and at 2300 fps full fragmentaion is occuring at 50 yards (with no exit sometimes<G>) in1/2 gallon milk jugs.At 100 yards small slits are all you see on the exits,with a small 22 hole where the base drove through i assume.I cant wait until next month for a test on the local sagerats.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

Attached Files

corerf posted this 16 March 2009

That is good news. 200 yds (I stink if I can't get a dog withing 150 yds). Ill save the long rangers for the jacketed bullets.

Ill add this to the data base.

Anyone got a 258 sizer for lyman 4500??

Attached Files

CB posted this 17 March 2009

I think so, I will check and get back to you.

Attached Files

corerf posted this 17 March 2009

Super, Jeff

Attached Files

runfiverun posted this 17 March 2009

you don't need the velocity to make a boolit fragment. i use 20 grs of 2400 and a 4/6 mix in my 7x57 for chuck hunting they explode fine. trying for the velocities you seek with a 10 twist bbl is going to be a long search. i would use a brittle alloy to do the job. once you shoot enough, a cast boolit will do fine to 300 yds at a reasonable velocity. linotype a hollw point and velocities in the 2000 range will do the job.

Attached Files

linoww posted this 17 March 2009

This is whats left of the 225415 HP in lino at 2100 fps @ 100 yards.

George

 

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

Attached Files

corerf posted this 17 March 2009

linoww wrote: This is whats left of the 225415 HP in lino at 2100 fps @ 100 yards.

George

 

  No pix. Can you try again?

Attached Files

linoww posted this 17 March 2009

Picture wont post for some reason.

email [email protected] and i'll attach all of them.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

Attached Files

CB posted this 17 March 2009

You can only upload a pic if it is under 600x400

Attached Files

corerf posted this 17 March 2009

Hey jeff, any word on that 258 sizer??

Attached Files

jhalcott posted this 17 March 2009

Mike ,Iv'e tried HP's and FN's at 2500 fps in larger calibers(7mm&30-06), The fn's always caused more destruction to the target than RN's. The expense of an HP mold seemed to be unneccessary after a few tries on ground hogs,foxes and a deer or two.The Hp wasn't really that much more accurate at longer range either! I used an alloy that was about 16BHN and close to Lyman #2. I am NOT telling you not to try(I was told not to also, BUT>>) because it is a learning curve MOST of us go thru! best of luck and let us know how it works for you

Attached Files

corerf posted this 18 March 2009

I was made aware and prior to the decision, fully understood that a FN delivers more energy to flesh than an HP will likely do. The cutting action is what I was looking for, hoping that I could get a 120 grain bullet to grenade. I don't expect the accuracy of the HP cavity to be any better than the stock RCBS nose.

Truly, if the bullet stops inside the animal when broadside, I will be happy. The punch the animal will get is enough to jelly things. I really wanted to preserve pelts and have no exit holes. I don't see a 120 gr CB stopping for anything in any direction in any dog unless I help it. Back off velocity and the trajectory goes limp. But it might not make it through, nor deform. Push too hard, flat trajectory, major deform but it goes thru and leaves a spare tire exit hole.

Of course this is if I suck so bad that I can't take head shots. The rifle “should” perform very well, I am expecting 1/2 inch at 100 and 1 inch at 200. That is common with the caliber (jackets) and Fred's barrels. I figure that with my success with cast bullets so far, I would not get groups that tight and I would be taking body shots for clean kills. I have not yet fired any of my rifle cast bullets. I have only had excellent success with pistol CB's. I read mostly in the forum, mil rifles which do 1.5 to 4 inch groups. Although in the F/S issues, I see that folks are getting tight groups at 100 from the bench in competition, sub MOA and sometimes deep subMOA. Those seem to be some fairly expensive race guns with lots of tuning. I don't know if my S/S rifle will be up to the challenge, seeing as how it was designed with jackets in mind.

The good thing is that Erik is pinning it for now, with a good sized, deep, thin hollowpoint (IIRC). He can and will remove such HP and add a larger meplat to the nose that would add more surface for contact and act more like a SWC than a spitzer. This is of course if the HP fails to be useable. I think though I will be hard pressed to get 2500 fps from the bullet. As it is, 3K is about all you can get from 120 grains with a jacket. But I am hopeful though. You can make a cast bullet go faster than a jacket, it just melts and disintegrates in the process...... How many water jugs do I have to have in a row to effectively test a 25-06 at 100 yds for penetration and expansion??? I guess I need my boys to save the milk jugs.

 

I hate California.

Attached Files

runfiverun posted this 18 March 2009

i bet the picture george didn't post. showed a bit of the shank a g/c and some fragments.

Attached Files

det posted this 18 March 2009

i will now show my age.  Back in the 60's a writer for one of the gun magazines was working on making 30-30 cast bullets that would open up violently.  His last and best bullet was a soft cast bullet with an over sized hollow point that he filled with liquid and capped with a gas check.  I don't remember the date but I think it was in “guns & Ammo".

Det

Attached Files

corerf posted this 18 March 2009

There were little bits, thats all. I don't recall seing any shank, nor gc. It was a pineapple grenade that broke up. His water jug was perfed pretty well. Like a shotgun blast but much smaller.

Attached Files

corerf posted this 19 March 2009

Pictures up from Erik on the finished mold on his site:

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/Rifle%20mold%20example%20pictures.html>http://www.hollowpointmold.com/Rifle%20mold%20example%20pictures.html

I think Erik fully met the objective. Thats an aweful long pin and the weight reduction is going to help the velocity limit significantly.

Attached Files

linoww posted this 19 March 2009

looks good.Hope you get the effect you are looking for

 

george

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

Attached Files

ClydeF posted this 19 February 2024

Anyone try casting with a thin piece of paper about a third of the way down.  Poor man’s hollow point.

Attached Files

.22-10-45 posted this 19 February 2024

Back in my distant past, I wanted a std. velocity .22 long rifle holow point.  I experimented with various sized drills to various depths...held ctg, in bench lathe..probably not the safest thing, but I never got hurt.  Anyway,  I couldn't get consistent results shooting into wet rags until I started packing cavity full of stiff bullet lube.  Then bullets came out with perfect mushroom profile..just like the pictures in books.  These were great for small game.  Then I tried CCI mini--Mags..only thing found were tiny fragments and the remains of solid base. I remember even using a flat blade to spin lead over nose to nearly close up h.p. hole, and results were the same.  I have never tried the hollow point/grease on a Centerfire bullet..wonder if grease would stand the increased velocity?..maybe a lead shot pressed into h.p.?

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • John Alexander
Larry Gibson posted this 19 February 2024

The OP [coerf] hasn't posted since March of 2009.  That was before he got the mould back so obviously there's no results from him.  I suspect he found out about the RPM Threshold trying to achieve his expected velocities.  For a 200 yard coyote load it would have to be able to consistently maintain a 4" group  (2 moa) at said 200 yards.  Getting that out of a 10" twist with his cast bullet at 2500 fps would be very, very difficult if not impossible. Down at 1950 fps would be much more probable.

I coerf is still out there it would be nice to hear of his results? 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • John Carlson
  • Wilderness
MP1886 posted this 20 February 2024

The OP [coerf] hasn't posted since March of 2009.  That was before he got the mould back so obviously there's no results from him.  I suspect he found out about the RPM Threshold trying to achieve his expected velocities.  For a 200 yard coyote load it would have to be able to consistently maintain a 4" group  (2 moa) at said 200 yards.  Getting that out of a 10" twist with his cast bullet at 2500 fps would be very, very difficult if not impossible. Down at 1950 fps would be much more probable.

I coerf is still out there it would be nice to hear of his results? 

LMG

 

That may be hard or damn near impossible for you Liarry. Thing is if you can't do it nobody can. I got a 6x45 that shoots a 76 grain bullet at 2634 fps with your favorite salt shaker full of IMR4895 which is 210,720 rpm which is out of your bs threshold no matter how many which ways you twist it. That rifle wears a 9 twist barrel, so that's one twist faster then the OP's 10.  What he is after is very doable for a 25-06. The lube on that 6mm is LBT Blue. 

Attached Files

mashburn posted this 20 February 2024

I know nothing, about this post, so I'll just keep my mouth shut and read and hopefully learn something.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • sluggo
Larry Gibson posted this 20 February 2024

MP 1886

My post has nothing to do with velocity per se.  Ternary alloyed lubed cast bullets can easily be driven to high velocity in any cartridge/rifle capable of such. My post was about the OPs accuracy requirement at 200 yards; Coyote at 200+ yards at the velocity levels he wanted.

Now we all know you will respond with claims of "bughole groups" at 200 yards with that HV load or probably 316 +/- yards.  Seems you claim all of your rifles do that.  However that may be, I did not ask what your results are claimed to be.  I asked it would be nice to hear of coerf's results.  Since he hasn't posted any accounts of unbelievable accuracy at HV with his 25-06 and his HP'd cast bullet I suspect he never got the accuracy results at the higher velocity he wanted.  Be nice to hear of his results from him.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

MP1886 posted this 20 February 2024

You are incorrect that I will respond by claiming bug hole accuracy with all my rifles because that is not true. I do not get bug hole accuracy with all my rifles. I'm just saying that I believe what the OP wants is very doable. I don't consider a 10 twist in that 25-06 far out there. Your suspecting he never got the accuracy is an assumption. Lord knows what might have happen. He may even no longer be with us. 

Your approach on cast bullet shooting from fast twists and your approach to high velocity shooting with cast bullets has always been from a negative view. Instead of trying to help shooters that want to do both of those things you go out of our way to discourage them from even attempting it. You have put so many restrictions on those wanting to attempt it that it's ridiculous. You mentioned one in your last post and that's we have to use a ternary alloy. That was imposed by you, as though you're some sort of authority which you are not. There has never been an authoritive group that has a list of restrictions for shooting fast twist and high velocity cast. I'll tell you why you do that and that is because it's harder to do it with ternary alloy lubed cast bullets, I will admit that.  It was posed to you many years ago that how is it one can take a soft lead core, sometimes almost a lead core and paper patch it to shoot almost like a jacketed bullet.  The fact is when that bullet exits the muzzle it shed the entire paper patch. Why then doesn't your rpm thingy affect that bullet? Are you saying then ALL the damage to the bullet and or the accuracy of it are damaged in the bore?If you answer yes to that then your whole rpm thing is wrong. There are few perfect things in the world and cast bulelts are among them. You should work with the people that want to shoot lubed cast bullets at HV and shoot them from fast twist barrels. You have a following that say "well I don't neet HV" from a cast, which is true for them, BUT here the OP posts a requirement for such a thing. Cast bullets slow down at a faster rate then jacketed bullets mainly because of their much lower BC. That puts limitations on longer distance shooting such as the OP wanting to shoot coyotes at 200 yards. 

I'm just saying help the people that want to do it instead of doing all your tests to prove that one cannot do it, some of which are ridiculous. Find the reasons and you'll find most often it is not the rpm of the bullet. 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • 45 2.1
Larry Gibson posted this 21 February 2024

MP 1886

Your response is as expected. 

The OP didn't say he was using paper patched bullets, nor did he say he was powder coating them.  He indicates by his questions he was going to use alloy cast lubed and GC'd bullets.  Those have an RPM Threshold.  Paper patched and PC'd cast bullets have different RPM Thresholds but still have them.  Even jacketed bullets have an RPM Threshold if they can be driven to that RPM.  All of which has been proven over and over again.  You just can't accept that fact.

Now, as to your personal criticism of me let's look at the facts here; the OP started this thread on 16 March of 2009.  The last post in this thread was on 19 March 2009 until ClydeF reopened the thread yesterday.  No where, in the original thread did I post any claim to being "some sort of an authority", nor did I offer any advice whatsoever telling the OP he couldn't do what he was wanting to do. Fact is, I didn't post at all in that original thread because I didn't want to go through all this again with you (you were posting under a different name back then). 

Thus, I simply was expecting the OP to come back and tell us what velocity he was getting good 200 yard coyote accuracy.  The OP never did tell us anything of his success at HV or failure to achieve 200 yard coyote accuracy at said HV.  With the thread reopened yesterday I merely posed a postulation it would be nice to hear from the OP as to his results, and as to why, perhaps, the OP never got back with any results.  Nowhere in the original thread or since its reopening did I offer the OP any advice pro or con or tell him he could not do what he wanted.  

That's the facts, plain and simple.  Unfortunately, your personal distaste for me apparently gets in the way of you comprehending the facts and you go off on your usual personal attack rant.  It would be a lot nicer if you could just stick to facts pertinent to the topic instead of continually with personal attacks. A suggestion for you; you don't believe the RPM Threshold then fine, don't believe.  Much better if you would just state your case about the thread topic with facts.  Enough said on that.

It would still be nice to hear from the OP, if still around, to find out what his results with that bullet were/are?

LMG 

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

MP1886 posted this 21 February 2024

Your response was also as expected.  The criticism was constructive criticism, but unfortunately you are incapable of seeing it that way. Good day.

Attached Files

Close