1919 UMC .303 Savage Cartridges and Box

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Last Post 24 September 2023

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Bryan Austin posted this 13 September 2023

I was able to pick up a decent REM-UMC .303 Savage box with a few cartridges. I decided to dissect one and see what we had.

This is a classic example of why only some barrels needed to be made from Special Steel. As in some of my previous posts, special steel barrels were only needed for a certain velocity and pressure. Winchester claimed that their barrels need not be special steel when certain cartridge of their make was used. Aside from the 30-40 Krag, 30-30 and the .303 Savage High Power loads, lower power loads did not need such special barrels. This was noted by Winchester and Marlin.

A key example is this .303 cartridge, if properly dated...from the 1919 era. This 1919 era REM-UMC cartridge used such High Power powder that created velocities and pressures that required special steel barrels.

K10O ??, K=1919, 10=day, O=July

194.2gr (195gr) JSP bullet. Handloading manuals call for a 190gr and a 196gr

THE POWDER

Found inside was 25.3gr of "Lightning" smokeless powder. Powder grains measure .0725" dia. and .0255" thick. Sharpshooter is basically the same measurements but calls for a much different charge because it is a faster burning powder. (Sharpshooter is a faster burning powder than Lightning). Do not confuse the same charge for the 44-40 as being the same as the Lightning charge for the .303 Savage.

1926 - 12.5gr of Sharpshooter only used for 150gr bullet.
1937 - 13gr to 17.6gr of Sharpshooter used with the 190gr JSP between 1,335fps to 1,695fps @ between 17,600lbs and 33,000lbs respectfully. Right there is the difference between the need for normal barrels and the need for special barrels as far as velocity and pressures are concerned.

1937 Sharpe's data - 25.8gr of Lightning with a 190gr JSP 1,990fps @ 41,000lbs.

Thus this REM-UMC is a full bore load for the .303 Savage chambered rifles of which needed special everything!!!

The primers are well past the patent war dates, but appears to be of the 1882 Hobbs patent.

This cartridge has been added to the .303 Savage data here

Now for the confusing part, take a gander at the powder charges in the white cap.

.303 Savage (1919), 25.3gr of Lightning, 1,990fps @ 41,000lbs. Special steel barrels needed

44-40 W.H.V. (1903), 20.8gr of Sharpshooter, 1,564fps @ 18,000lbs, Special steel barrels not needed.

44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40

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RicinYakima posted this 13 September 2023

Excellent post! Thank you!

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JeffinNZ posted this 13 September 2023

HHHMMMM. Looks like the same powder.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Bryan Austin posted this 13 September 2023

HHHMMMM. Looks like the same powder.

Yeap, exactly...In all the reading I was doing a while back, the author (I forget whom) warned about not trying to identify such powder when found unlabeled...LOL

44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40

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Bryan Austin posted this 13 September 2023

44-40 (200) Sharpe's 1937 data

Sharpshooter - 19.6gr for 1,680fps @ 20,000lbs
Lightning - 26.7gr for 1,720fps @20,000lbs

38-40 (180) Sharpe's 1937 data

Sharpshooter - 17.7gr for 1,690fps @ 20,000lbs
Lightning - 23.7gr for 1,620fps @20,000lbs

30-30 (170) Sharpe's 1937 data

Sharpshooter - 20.3gr for 2,002fps @ 38,500lbs
Lightning - 26.6gr for 2,165fps @40,000lbs

.303 Savage Sharpe's 1937 data

Sharpshooter - 17.6gr for 1,695fps @ 33,000lbs
Lightning - 25.8gr for 1,990fps @41,000lbs

30-40 Krag Sharpe's 1937 data

Sharpshooter - 23.9gr for 1,700fps @42,000lbs
Lightning - 30.9gr for 2,000fps @42,000lbs

44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40

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gnoahhh posted this 14 September 2023

Wasn't the need for alloy steel barrels dictated by wear generated by high(er) velocity jacketed bullets (versus low vel soft lead bullets), and commensurate flame cutting by the higher pressure and hotter gasses of the substantially larger smokeless powder charges?

The thickness of a typical .30 rifle barrel of 100 years ago, even if constructed of lesser steel, provided enough hoop strength to safely contain 40K psi typical of sporting ammo back then. I suppose the only fly in that ointment would have been what kind of safety margin would it have had in the case of a dimwit nimrod doing something dumb.

In the end I think it was mainly the greatly increased wear factor from jacketed bullets that drove the move to Proof Steel barrels across the board.

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Bryan Austin posted this 14 September 2023

Basically yes.

What I find in old articles is that the dense powders were obviously erosive (friction) and corrosive (rust) at the temps created by the hot burning powders. The heat and friction created by the powder burn and jacketed bullets is what wore out the bores (inevitable)...and the pressures created is what was needed for stronger materials...thus the special steel barrels were needed.

It was said that as long as the velocities were kept low, heat reduced and pressures reduced, the need for special barrels were not needed.

This is why some cartridges like the 44-40 WHV loads never needed special steel barrels. The velocities created, the heat created and the pressures created, did not need such special steel barrels....but the powders used were still corrosive, just not as erosive.

The same was true for the popular 32-40 and the 38-55, and is where all the questions from about 1899 to the 1920's were basically centered.

Townsand Whelen spoke of this much.

The 44-40 High Velocity factory load created velocities and pressures below the need for special steel barrels. The same was true for certain factory loads for the 32-40 and 38-55. Winchester claims their ammunition was safe for the soft steel barrels, while UMC loaded the hotter loads that needed the special steel barrels. I am sure there are others, but that is as far as I got. The confusion for the handloaders back then was not knowing which powders to use to keep such velocities and pressures low...i.e. WA-30, Dupont 30 Cal, Lightning, and Sharpshooter... all dense and corrosive powders...and erosive when used as high power loads.

I noticed that in 1905, the 303 Savage handloads showed loads with both Laflin & Rand WA-30 and Dupont 30 Cal, the same charge of 28gr. while the 30 Army used 34gr of both. Thus both powders must have been basically the same.

Thus it appears that the two hot burning factory loaded powders for the 30 Army (30-40 Krag) would be WA-30 and Dupont 30 Cal., while Lightning would be third (for the 30-30 and 303 Savage), and then Sharpshooter (for all black powder cartridges)...notwithstanding other manufacture's powder choices.

Basically all of those powders created by Laflin & Rand and refined by Dupont...then handed over to Hercules.

44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40

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gnoahhh posted this 14 September 2023

Interesting, thank you. I'm prompted to pull my copy of Sharpe's handloading book off the shelf to re-acquaint myself with some esoteric lore of old, again!