Leading on lands near muzzle

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  • Last Post 28 January 2008
JeffinNZ posted this 22 January 2008

Team.

I am running the new CBE 313 215 bullet (similar to 314299) in clip on WW with approx 1% tin based babbit added, heat treated to 18 BHN launched down range on 20gr of H4227 for in the region of 1600-1700fps.  Bullets are .3135 out of the mould and lubed in a .314 die.

I am getting a little leading only on the lands within the last 2 inches of the 25 inch barrel.  The remaining 23 inches of barrel is clean as a whistle (odd expression that).

Do I need to lube the nose of the bore riding bullets?

Ideas?

Cheers from New Zealand

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CB posted this 22 January 2008

I wonder of you have a bit of a choke at the muzzle end? Have you slugged the barrel just at the muzzle? Maybe could be a bit tight, or rough.. Maybe a firelapping round or two would help.. I doubt lube would fix it.. What lube are you using?

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Ed Harris posted this 22 January 2008

I would expect that you have some residual tool marks on the tops of the lands near the muzzle. In my experience fire lapping works best near the chamber and most abrasive is blown off by the time the slug gets to the muzzle. Best way to fix this is to cast a lead lap in the barrel and give it a few strokes over its full length with 2A Clover.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JimmyDee posted this 22 January 2008

Ed Harris wrote: ... cast a lead lap in the barrel and give it a few strokes over its full length with 2A Clover. I've recently read a similar recommendation Ed made when discusing revolvers.

Tell me, please: how does one “cast a lead lap in the barrel” and afix it to anything that might be used to “give it a few strokes?"

Thank-you!

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JeffinNZ posted this 23 January 2008

Well I made up a wee lap and stone me if I didn't find that the final 2 inches of barrel where the leading was occuring was a shade tighter than the rest of the barrel.  Gave it a lap out and will shoot and report.

JIMMY: I made a lap by putting the cup from a shotshell primer on the end of a .22 cleaning rod with the cup face the muzzle.  I placed the rod and cup in the barrel within about 1/2 inch of the muzzle and poured a little melted lead in.  Hey presto, a lead lap fixed to the end of the rod.

The primer cup prevents the lead running down the barrel nicely though I did have to file the rim of the cup to make it fit.

Many thanks.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ed Harris posted this 23 January 2008

JimmyDee wrote: I've recently read a similar recommendation Ed made when discusing revolvers.

Tell me, please: how does one “cast a lead lap in the barrel” and afix it to anything that might be used to “give it a few strokes?"

Thank-you!

Easiest way is to heat up your lead pot, clamp rifle horizontally in a padded vise, and put a worn bore brush on a solid, unjointed cleaning rod.  Impale a cleaning patch onto the brush and pull it about 3/4 of the way down the shaft of the brush.  The patch on the brush is your “dam” to contain the lead. Push the through the bore and partially out the muzzle so that only the looped wire end of the brush protrudes slightly.

Preheat the muzzle by pouring repeated dippers full of lead over the muzzle until it is well heated and the molten lead no longer “sticks” but runs off the barrel.  Then tip the muzzle up, pour the muzzle full of molten lead and overflow it well so that the lap is well formed.  

Give it a minute or so to harden fully, then gently tap the lap partly, but not all the way out of the muzzle.  Slobber the AA Clover paste onto the warm lap with a brush and it will melt immmediately and flow around the lap. 

Trim the ragged ends of the cast lap neatly with side cutters and/or a sharp knifve and gently pull the lap back into the bore.  This will be difficult at first and you will have to work slowly and carefully in very short strokes until the hot oil and abrasive mixture begins to work. 

Once you are able to pull the lap back clear of the muzzle and clamp the gun in the vise so that the muzzle is only about 1/2 inch away from the wall or a solid object which acts as a stop for the lap.  Then withdraw the lap towards the breech and alternately back towards the muzzle using full strokes the full length of the bore.  It is OK to “bump” the lap slightly against the wall as it exits the muzzle, as this keeps it from completely exiting the bore.

If you inadvertently withdraw the cast lap out the breech end, it's OK to carefully reinsert it, if you can re-index it with the rifling and start it back without forcing it. Some gunsmiths like to rotate and re-index the lap every few strokes because it helps prevent the grip from sliding back and forth “in the same tracks." 

After about 3-4 full length passes the lap will become more loose in the bore. Give it about six full length strokes, then withdraw, melt the lap off in the lead pot, wet patch, then dry patch patch the bore and and inspect your work. Repeat again if necessary. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 23 January 2008

A couple of minor items to add to Ed's instructions...

If you have a one piece cleaning rod that has a T handle, that will make the “pull” portion of the stoke much easier. Alternately, you can craft a makeshift T by taking a 6” piece of round or square or what ever you have laying around the shop in the way of metal (aluminum or steel) and drill a hole large enough for the cleaning rod to go through but not so large that it rides on the plastic portion of the rod. This will give you a good T to grab on to when drawing the lap back into the bore.

AA Clover paste: You can substitute valve lapping compound for the AA Clover paste, you can find that at most autoparts supply stores.

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Ed Harris posted this 23 January 2008

You have to be careful with valve grinding compound. Most of it is coarse, about 180 grit, which approximates a 32 microinch RMS finish.

Better if you can still find it is "self sharpening compound” for Remington or Norelco electric razors, which is about 400 grit, good for an agressive cleaning or to produce a fine polish, but it is too fine to be ideal for removing “tight” spots.

AA clover is 280 grit if memory serves correctly.  In bore lapping you don't want too fine an abrasive.  The purpose of lapping is to cut down the high or tight spots to produce more uniform dimensions. Too fine a grit simply follows the surface imperfections and accentuates them.

In normal practice when rifling barrels a heavier grit was used to remove the circumferential  tool marks left from the bore reamer. This stage is typically done with 180 or 220 grit. After cut rifling, a finer grit such as 240 or 280 was used to remove the wire edges produced by the hook cutter or broach, and to produce a final polish of 16 RMS or so.  Today's cut rifled barrels by HS Precision, Obermeyer or Krieger are done in this way.

In the better quality match grade buttoned barrels a honing machine is used to uniformly remove any residual circumferential reamer marks, producing surface finishes of 16 RMS or better prior to buttoning.  Blanks intended to be hammer forged may also be electropolished to 8 RMS or better prior to forging.  

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 28 January 2008

Hi team.

Shot the No4 Mk2 today at 110yards/100metres. 

Ran the bore riding 205gr bullets down her with the noses lubed now that the barrel has had a lap out near the muzzle.

Accuracy has returned to around 1.5 MOA (with PH5C peep sight) and no leading to speak of.  Noticed a small speck on one land but after the next round it was gone.

Many thanks for the pointers.  Really have to start thinking about those military matches o'here now.

Cheers from New Zealand

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CB posted this 28 January 2008

My god I think we have created a monster...

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sturf posted this 28 January 2008

the bore is probably a little larger at the muzzle allowing some gas blow by melting the lead and causing the deposit. this is actually quite common.

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