Need opinions......................I have a Remington 700 VLS 308 Win..........Which shoots excellent groupings Under .500 @ 200 Yards...with my reloads.
I am wanting to shoot cast lead bullets out of this same gun.........But everyone at my range is asking why do I want to ruin a good shooting gun by shooting cast bullets thru it................
I don't understand their concerns, Am I overlooking something??
What damage will cast bullets do to my gun ?
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The only thing you're overlooking is that the guys at your range don't have any idea what they're talking about. You can shoot all the cast bullets you want with no worries.
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Your .308 can shoot cast bullets just fine. However, get all of the copper fouling out of your barrel before you shoot your cast bullets, keep the velocities down, and have fun.
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Steven; Amen to both replies, Most everybody here including myself has been shooting cast for a loong time. You did good by coming to the source instead of believing the uninformed-nonthinking as so often happens every where. Especially in this shooting game. Almost a daily occurance during my other life, often much to the person's regret. So, shoot those cast bullets and when you get that 1/2” group, just smile and say “D..n, I was hoping for somthing a little smaller".
RD
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Thanks guys.......I hope to become a regular here. I have been toying with shooting cast in all my guns , Frankly because my son has entered into the shooting arena and go thru the ammo. I had a chance to get cast bullets from a trade I made, so I ended up with about 300 cast bullets for each of my guns. All casted by the same guy and to the same hardness..and I favor simplicity so basically I use the same powder (unique) for everything except my pet load...
Lyman 311291 - 170 grains, RN, gas check (classic designed for 30-30, but work well in about anything) Lyman's 452374 - 220 grains, RN (profile of GI hardball) Lyman 358311, 158 grain, RN, plain base
All casted with 13.5 hardness The 308 is gaschecked.......
My loads the other day (9) 308 win 13 grains unique 2.510 OAL all shot in a 6 inch group at 200 yards 30” lower than my zero from my pet load.......any recommendations?? On closing this group and also I don't want that much drop from my baseline zero........The first shot I actually removed my bolt and checked my barrel because it sounded like a misfire and I wasn't looking for it 30 ” low.. I intend to use the cast as plinking and training for my son ,which will also include killing coyotes under 200 yards by him...Hell, I'll use them myself to stay in practice.I have plenty of unique
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I use 30 grains of 2208,Varget in your country,with a 197grain GC, in a BRNO .308. Around six inches high at 100yds, to be on at 200 yards.I would not call it a plinking load.With 162gr GC,19grs of ADI 2205, H 4227 I think,goes very well.Mike
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If I chamfer my cases is belling of the mouth necessary If I am not shaving lead while seating bullet??
If necessary what tool can I use??
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My loads the other day (9) 308 win 13 grains unique 2.510 OAL all shot in a 6 inch group at 200 yards 30” lower than my zero from my pet load.......any recommendations?? On closing this group
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Hi Steve: on closing those 3 moa groups:: first be sure your rifle will shoot better than that with ja*eted bullets. Ocassionally that could be a concern. Usually some kitchen table gunsmithing can take care of that. ( free floating barrel and pillar bedding, checking for bolt fit, pretty much laundry list of things to help ... ) ...
Then we got to remember that a slow moving, mostly round or blunt nose bullet at 1200 fps is ” sensitive “ make that ” hyper sensitive “to wind (g) ... make up some cheap wind indicators from split sticks and light ribbon, put one out about 20 yards and another one about 50 yards... this will make a good compromise between a ” pro” setup with many flags... and something that is so easy that a guy might actually do it. When I started using windflags in actual recorded matches, it took me about 5000 rounds before they started to talking to me ... now it bothers me to shoot without at least that 20 yard flag ... watching the grass and the trees moving is not good enough ... wind swirls and twirls way too much ... anyway, faster loads and heavier, longer, bullets help fight the wind devils ...
sharp pointed bullets would seem to be a obvious answer, except those long unsupported points MAY get distorted upon firing, .... this is an area that is very interesting, and as JoeB says, subject to a lot of opinions ....
........ anyway, a breeze that you cannot detect on your cheek can blow a 1200 fps bullet out of your group at 200 yards by 6 inches !! and furthermore it can blow it not only left and right, but up and down !!!
One of the most fun things about slow moving bullets is to use a good 15 or 20 power scope, and watch your bullet go downrange, thru the swirling wind, and watch them going left, then right, then up then down, and finally with luck at the last moment head into the bullseye ... with lots of luck, actually ....
Just a few thoughts, keep in there, you are already part way up the slope of the mountain with those 3 moa groups ... heck, I still get a lot of 4 to 6 moa groups... from perfectly good rifles (g) ... little things mean a lot, I guess ...
ken campbell, iowa
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If I chamfer my cases is belling of the mouth necessary If I am not shaving lead while seating bullet??
If necessary what tool can I use?? BTT.................Any comments:coffee
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That would depend on what diameter you size your bullets at and how small your dies size down your case necks.
If you are using Redding bushing dies and have the correct bushing you won't have to bell your case mouths.
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If you are going to inside chamfer the case mouths one of the long tapered ones helps bullet alignment during seating of the bullet. I think K & M makes a long tapered tool.
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If I chamfer my cases is belling of the mouth necessary If I am not shaving lead while seating bullet??
If necessary what tool can I use?? BTT.................Any comments:coffee Yes. Here's something from the book; I mean to do some experimenting along these lines when I have time. At this time not belling case mouths gave wide velocity swings. I now bell to insertiopn resistance, every time. Here it is:
311299 Lyman bullet sized in a .312 sizing die (which changes diameter of the bullet only .001� or so) lubed with Alox lube.
Wolf No Grease Groove bullet lubricated with liquid Alox
IMR 4227 Bullet Avg. Velocity Standard Deviation
13 grains Wolf 1307 feet/second 16.3 feet/second
13 grains 311299 1372 feet/second 32.9 feet/second
14 grains Wolf 1450 feet/second 39 feet/second
14 grains 311299 1394 feet/second 11.9 feet/second
I was not happy with these results and with the wide velocity swings, and decided to see what effect belling the case mouth had on velocity.
Using the Wolf bullet and 14 grains of IMR 4227, and carefully belling the case mouth before each shot so that there was definite resistance to the case going into the chamber, velocities were:
1625, 1694, 1663, 1673, 1649, 1613, 1676, 1632, 1637, 1665 Average = 1653, S. D. = 25.7
I then stopped belling the case mouth, velocities for four shots were:
1655, 1391, 1369, 1358
Then ten shots for average velocity:
1402, 1368, 1407, 1371, 1389, 1387, 1380, 1376, 1383, 1391 Average = 1385, S. D. = 12.6
There was no obvious visible evidence of gas blow by on the last 14 shots. The case was wiped off after each shot.
Accuracy has been averaging about 2� for five shots at 100 yards with this rifle. No detectable difference in accuracy was seen between the first ten and last ten shots.
The elevation difference between the higher and lower velocity groups is small, perhaps an inch and a half or so, certainly less than I would have guessed.
While this is not a rigorous test, the velocities for the original test (1450 f/s), with belled cases (1653 f/s) and not-belled cases (1385 f/s) are different enough to strain my credibility.
I think we should bell the case mouth every time a cast bullet is loaded.
joe b.
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Joe, I think you should test regular sizing dies against the Redding bushing dies. With bushing dies you get to select the precise minimum of sizing required.
My opinion is you had a problem with un uniform case neck tension and/or bullet shaving.
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Joe, I'm still stuck on my suggestion of Redding bushing dies but think there's still a question to ask as a blanket statement to use Redding bushing dies might not be the answer.
Did you use the same cases for the belling/no belling testing. I'm very curious what the reason was for the large difference in velocities of belled vs non belled cases. There's another factor involved here.
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Joe, I'm still stuck on my suggestion of Redding bushing dies but think there's still a question to ask as a blanket statement to use Redding bushing dies might not be the answer.
Did you use the same cases for the belling/no belling testing. I'm very curious what the reason was for the large difference in velocities of belled vs non belled cases. There's another factor involved here.
As it says above, one case!!!!
The difference was case mouth belling.
I think that what is written is clear.
More testing is needed.
joe b.
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What does this mean “carefully belling the case mouth before each shot so that there was definite resistance to the case going into the chamber"?
I don't understand why a belled mouth case would have more resistance when chambering than a non belled case.
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I kinda wondering about the belling my self.................Joe,,.......Are you belling to prevent gas escaping?? A form of neck sizing............??
I am curious on belling the neck to load cast to prevent shaving of bullet while loading................
I am unaware of any benefit...........Lead or jacketed bullet that involves sizing the neck to chamber size................Cases I am using and testing with are fired once from my gun and then neck sized only................Too me belling the case mouth should only affect the neck tension resulting in a possible pressure variant, which affects the overall accuracy............Different pressures=different point of impact..........
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If you assemble a rifle and an M die in a press and a fired cartridge case, you will be able to do the following:
Put the case in the gun, you should feel no resistance. Bell the case mouth a bit, no resistance as you insert the case in the chamber. Bell a little more, keep on, and eventually you'll feel the case mouth drag on the chamber as the case is put in. The largest dimension of the neck will be the belled edge of the mouth, and that drags on the chamber wall. Doesn't everybody do this?
This is how I know that the case mouth is belled so that it comes close to making a seal with the chamber, this keeps the gas from coming around the case mouth and getting between the case neck and the chamber.
In the SS game, where many of use one case only, we soon learn that the case mouth MUST be belled, else the gas comes around and will make a dent or crease in the neck and sometimes in the case body. We bell the case mouth with a variety of improvised instruments, anything that can be stuck in and opens the case mouth.
The handle end of my Lyman #2 Re-De capper is perfect for this job.
Now the SS guys do this now and then; as I wrote in the book, I only know/knew of one other man who bells the case mouths religiously, every shot. The gas doesn't start to come around until a few firings. I see SS guys wipe off and inspect case necks, and bell when signs are seen.
The SS guys want to keep the dents off the case neck, so do I. However, the results cited above suggest at least that there may be wide velocity variation with certain loads/rifles as the bell goes away as the case is fired.
I bell case mouths with fixed ammunition, however some bullet seating dies take a lot of the bell out, and all need to have the die body up from the shell holder quite a bit to keep from removing the bell.
All this is long after shaving lead bullets is taken care of-belling and sometimes just chamfering-with GC bullets- keeps the shaving at bay. This is about sealing the mouth of the case against the chamber wall.
I don't know if I'm answering Steven's last question. I think I control neck tension by powered brushing inside each case neck after firing (fixed) or brushing when loading one case; sizing the same depth and sizing twice after a ~90 degree turn, belling twice 90 degree turn to the correct bell, and keeping everything clean. Also annealing case necks. I think.
So, this is another question to be answered by experiment. Does MV really vary that much?
joe b.
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If you use a collet die, and cut the end off till the case stcks out, the die will leave a bellmouth that fits the chamber end.
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Joe.......Doesn't everybody do this?
Never heard of it , Is it just for cast bullets?
In the SS game, where many of use one case only, we soon learn that the case mouth MUST be belled, else the gas comes around and will make a dent or crease in the neck and sometimes in the case body. We bell the case mouth with a variety of improvised instruments, anything that can be stuck in and opens the case mouth.
That was my main concern if I was understanding you right.........Using anything to bell mouth would be inconsisent therefore affecting neck tension, which might have been the reason for MV changes.
So, this is another question to be answered by experiment. Does MV really vary that much?
As long as point of impact doesn't change..........Should we worry??
I think we are on the same page now.............I just never heard of it....
Thanks.............4060may, I was in process of scraping a lee collett neck sizing die.
Now I might have found use for it
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Aaron
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Wm Cook
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RicinYakima
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