"Heh Heh, I suppose I could be a nuisance and bring up the fact that you guys have not included ” tuners” as a hideously complicated factor in determining ” accuracy” ... or ” relative accuracy" ... or ” absolute accuracy” ... so I won Above is part of a post by Ken Campbell from another thread. Ken, I have no experience with tuners and initially thought using one would be a great thing to try but after thinking it over might have found a fly in the ointment when it comes to using one on a cast bullet rifle and that's lube. In my mind one of the nice things about using a tuner once you have a good load and tuner setting worked out would be it's ability to make adjustments for changing temperature conditions throughout the day or year. An example is that you get a good load worked out that has a velocity of 2000 fps when it's 90 degrees that turns to mush at 50 degrees when the velocity drops to 1925 fps, I don't know if this is an extreme example or not but you get the point. With a jacketed bullet you could adjust the powder charge to get velocity back up to the sweet spot or you could turn the tuner to get the barrel harmonics back in balance which is as far as I can figure out the purpose of the tuner in the first place. Since you have no load control with a a .22 I assume you just play with the tuner until the gun starts shooting again. With a cast bullet you'd have the ability to adjust the barrel harmonics but would have no control over the temperature effects on the lube itself. I don't know about other peoples experiences but I've found temperature has a big influence on a lubes performance and I can't think of a way to tune it out. Any Thoughts?? Pat
Barrel Tuners
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- Last Post 26 November 2007
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Ken,
I have no experience with tuners and initially thought using one would be a great thing to try but after thinking it over might have found a fly in the ointment when it comes to using one on a cast bullet rifle and that's lube.
In my mind one of the nice things about using a tuner once you have a good load and tuner setting worked out would be it's ability to make adjustments for changing temperature conditions throughout the day or year. An example is that you get a good load worked out that has a velocity of 2000 fps when it's 90 degrees that turns to mush at 50 degrees when the velocity drops to 1925 fps, I don't know if this is an extreme example or not but you get the point. With a jacketed bullet you could adjust the powder charge to get velocity back up to the sweet spot or you could turn the tuner to get the barrel harmonics back in balance which is as far as I can figure out the purpose of the tuner in the first place. Since you have no load control with a a .22 I assume you just play with the tuner until the gun starts shooting again.
With a cast bullet you'd have the ability to adjust the barrel harmonics but would have no control over the temperature effects on the lube itself. I don't know about other peoples experiences but I've found temperature has a big influence on a lubes performance and I can't think of a way to tune it out.
Any Thoughts??
Pat
Arent you the guy that asked Raquel Welch ( for you older guys ... ) ” yes, but can you cook ? “
Sorry, tuners cannot cook ... but what they can do, they do very well.
I regard barrel conditioning as the last great frontier of caster-bullet-izing .....
I have shot castings for a long time , but mostly for fun; so far I have mostly only questions, and a few probably worthless observations: mainly, re: conditioning (lubes ) we are about where the great Col. Harrison was about 50 years ago .... more questions than answers.
about '92 I started shooting .22 rimfire matches, mostly 50-50 and BR50 then ARA .... a friend and I had an indoor 50 yard benchrest at our disposal, and shot bucketsful of 20 cent match ammo thru prime time rifles ....
...... after 5 minutes with a tuner, it was no longer a question if they worked or not ... it did not make 2nd class ammo into 1st class ammo, but it let you get the most out of 1st class ammo.
But I never saw any correlation of the tuners with the problem of bore conditioning.
You still had to shoot those 5 or 25 “fouler” shots before you switch to the for-score shots. and this was whether you cleaned or how you cleaned or not .... we shot either 25 or 50 shot targets ... if you had a nasty wind gust and did not shoot for a minute or so, you better shoot a conditioner ( fouler ) shot before you went for score again. Wasn't a ” warm up ” shot, whether a 101 F day or a 38F day still demanded to shoot and keep shooting to keep predictable.
......... It appears that each barrel was different and maybe even different at different times .. for some reason.
For a year or two, Federal had the absolutely most astounding .22 match stuff ever ... but it had the little irritating habit of ” building up... or building down .... ” it's barrel conditioning, and throwing one once in a while. Maybe this was something akin to Tom Gray's ” Lube Purging” scenario ?? Federal is not making the good stuff anymore, the current stuff is not accurate enough to show up a flyer ... they are all flyers (g) ... Kinda like our ongoing discussion of 3 moa CBA groups ...
So, use the tuner to tune, and meanwhile figger out the seperate conditioning enigma and report back to us ... oh, with statistics, please (g).
Hope this helps, ken campbell, deltawerkes
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Ken,
Do you know anyone that's used a tuner on a cast bullet gun? I'm not saying the idea's bad I'm saying there might be a little more to using one with a bullet carrying 3 tenths of a grain of lube than either a naked or .22 bullet dipped into some sort of tumble lube. Maybe there's a way around it, maybe there isn't, or maybe it doesn't matter. I don't know and since I never heard of anyone using a tuner I don't think anyone else does either.
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I know Tom Gray was experimenting with one the last I saw him shootin cast bullets.
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I know Tom Gray was experimenting with one the last I saw him shootin cast bullets.
Which is exactly the problem with this forum and cast bullet shooters in general anymore, there's not many Ton Grays left. If Tom wanted to find out if there was a relationship between a moulds physical dimensions and it's ability to to cast bullets the way he wanted them to he'd start modifying moulds. If he wanted to find out if a tuner worked he'd get a tuner and try it on a rifle he shoots cast in. It's gotten to the point where everythingets ANALyzed to death but no one wants to do the actual trying.
I'll just stay out of these discussions from now on because all we're doing is pissing in the wind.
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Pat,
I'll just stay out of these discussions from now on because all we're doing is pissing in the wind.
I hope you don't take offense at this but your attitude seems to prevail with many people. I'm hoping you've just had a bad hair day.
Now I'm nobody famous like Tom Gray but I have mentioned several times on here of experiments I have done, or in the process of doing. Yet not once has anyone ask about them. Maybe it didn't interest anyone. Maybe what I'm working on is common knowledge so those “in the know” are laughing up their sleeves thinking all I'm doing is re-inventing the wheel.
A lot of these experiments come under the heading of proving or disproving “Conventional Wisdom", which in many cases is not “Wisdom” at all.
I don't think of myself as special so I assume there is a lot of experimenting going on. But when those people run into those with your attitude they don't really feel like passing on what they're doing or have found out. Count me as one of them from now on!
No experiment whether new or going over old stuff is “pissing in the wind” as it brings new ideas to the front or supports/disproves an old idea.
By the way whatever happened to the top half of this thread?
PETE
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I don't take offense about too much said on this forum but if you really think my attitude prevails then why do you think that is?? I never said I'm staying out of all discussions just the ones where someone brings up an idea but doesn't want to spend the time or money to see if it works, like Tom would have. I'll try to stay out of that stats stuff too because unless I'm using it without knowing it I'm not using it.
Every thing's so picked apart with statistics and unrealistic numbers needed to back up anything being said around here anymore that you'd have to say you farted 500 times just to be able to prove with certainty that it stunk.
I've done a bit of goofing around with cast bullet stuff and just used a cheap calculator paper and pencil. When the heck did it become so scientific??
Pat
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Which is exactly the problem with this forum and cast bullet shooters in general anymore, there's not many Ton Grays left. If Tom wanted to find out if there was a relationship between a moulds physical dimensions and it's ability to to cast bullets the way he wanted them to he'd start modifying moulds. If he wanted to find out if a tuner worked he'd get a tuner and try it on a rifle he shoots cast in. It's gotten to the point where everythingets ANALyzed to death but no one wants to do the actual trying.
I'll just stay out of these discussions from now on because all we're doing is pissing in the wind.
I am ashamed that I am not a machinist, and that I cannot walk down into the basement or out to the shop and crank up my machine tools and make or modify whatever I want. I know that I am virtually alone, that most of you cast bullet shooters ARE machinists, that they DO have a complete home machine shop at their diosposal, and the experience and knowledge to use the tools.
My “shop” is the utility room in our condominium; it is 4'7” deep by 5'1/2” wide, has the water heater, air handler, shop vac, carpentry tools and my bullet casting and reloading apparatus in it.
Until I can sell my home here, move to the midwest, buy a big house with a shop, acquire all the machine tools I'll need and complete an apprenticeship as a machinist, I'll just have to count on others to help with the mold modifying and other tasks.
Will one of you machinists modify a mold for the experiment?
joe brennan
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Now I'm nobody famous like Tom Gray but I have mentioned several times on here of experiments I have done, or in the process of doing. Yet not once has anyone ask about them. Maybe it didn't interest anyone.
PETE
Pete;
Maybe I've got this wrong, but my impression is that you've said any number of times that your experiments are yours and you won't share the results or protocols with others. This is what I think you said, and I may be and hope I am wrong. I'd like to see a lot more experimenting, and the results of those experiments. By anyone.
joe brennan
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Joe,
I'm not a machinist either. I spent the last 25 years of my life working on a truck dock. When I got interested in fitting my own barrels I took two machining classes at a local community college, bought a few gunsmithing books, and finally an early 50s Sheldon lathe with a 1 3/8 hole through the head stock with a lot of tooling that had been ridden hard and put up wet, the guy who had it was making custom pool cues in his basement with it. Eventually I also got a mill drill. For a lot of the stuff being discussed on here you could probably get away with one of the little hobby lathes or mills that Harbor Frt. and other companies sell. I've seen some pretty nice work come out of them and they're tiny. There's also a ton of websites about using and getting the full potential out of them.
All that aside you don't have to know or have the tools to turn or mill something to try an idea out. There's machine shops all over the place and I don't think you'd have a hard time finding one. Don't know what a shop would charge on a per hour basis but for a few small projects it would be one heck of a lot less than buying the machines and tooling so you're not getting any sympathy or slack here. Having the tools and space is nice but there are other ways of testing some of your questions out. As an example the best idea I saw about finding a way to increase the cooling rate on a mould that ran hot was to make a radiator out of it by milling or grinding fins into the sides of the blocks. You could do this with a Dremel tool with a cut off wheel or grind flutes into it with a grinder to increase the surface area. It might not come out pretty but the end results would be the same as if you milled them with a Bridgeport. Another example is that when I cut my last mould using a RCBS 22 cal mould for blocks I kept getting fins on the bullet when holding the ladle to the sprue plate. I cure it by milling a cavity into the top of the plate so I could just pour the lead in and let the over flow run back into the pot like an LBT plate. I used my mill but I'm sure I could have accomplished the same thing using a Dremel and grinder bit if I took my time. I didn't know if it would work so just hurried the cavity in so while the job didn't come out pretty it worked. When I wanted to see if I could cut a mould I bugged the right people enough until I thought I had a handle on it. It took four tries, with the accompanying result of wrecking four RCBS moulds for .30 cal bullets, but I finally got one right. Point is that you could talk til you're blue in the face but until you actually try something your not going to get an answer. It might end up costing you a few bucks but tell me what doesn't.
I don't want to see anyone quit posting about what they tried and learned but with a lot of this stuff until someone actually puts the calculator down and picks the mould or rifle up, unfortunately in most cases it also means cracking open their wallet, it doesn't mean a thing.
Pat
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Everyone Don't take personal offense to this, but I am going to speak my peace.
It seems to me this is turning into a one up conversation.
What in god's name does this I have this or I don't have that, have to do with barrel tuners?
I was under the impression that we were discussing barrel tuners, not limited space or equipment or the ability to use them.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and as adults we should respect each others opinions. We may not agree with that opinion, which is our choice, but we should not slight someone else for expressing their opinion.
Judge not lest ye be judged!
Jeff
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Jeff,
For my part in this I apologize once again. All I was trying to point out is that you don't have to be a master machinist or own a machine shop to find out if your ideas have any merit. Since I started this topic and the final thing said in my original post was “Any Thoughts” I'm all set to get back to talking about tuners. I think if you read anything I wrote in the past you'll find I'm pretty self deprecating and don't mind telling people about the stuff I've screwed up as well as when something worked out as planned. I'm also not big on talking about match grade accuracy or saying my rifles shoot half inch groups all the time because as soon as I do I'll be eating the words. All I did here was point out a fact and explain my situation. That's not one upping it's telling the truth.
Maybe this is a classic example of familiarity breeds contempt and some new voices would throw a little water on the fire. For my part from now on I'll TRY to write something useful or not write anything at all.
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Joe,
Maybe I've got this wrong, but my impression is that you've said any number of times that your experiments are yours and you won't share the results or protocols with others.
I think you know this is wrong as I've put up a lot of experiments on here and voiced opinions that took 50 yrs. or better to accumulate. I have on many occassions mentioned things I'm working on. I do this to see if anyones “listening". If no one asks them I figure they weren't paying attention or weren't interested, so why spend the time presenting data? On two ocassions I've mentioned what I just got done spending 6 hrs. doing today and maybe twice that much over the last two weeks. Now do you really think I should spend several more hours getting data gathered up, photo's taken and posted to back my claims up?
What you are referring to above......
When you asked if you could publish some of the things I'd mentioned on here what I said was that YOU could not publish them. What I do and speak of is for the users on this Forum or any other I happen to be on. This was because your whole attitude at the time was confrontational. I see you're mellowing out a bit so I have loosened up on what I put up here. But it is still not for publication by anyone else. If it's to be published I will do it and get paid for it.
PETE
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A recent rifleman has an ad for a Ruger Mini 14 Match rifle with a barrel tuner. And a very ugly stock. I think you machinist guys ought to jump on this. Get one on a CB rifle, quick!!
joe b.
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Joe,
A tuner on a Mini 14 might be just what it needs but don't you think your child psychology game of trying to get people to try things so you can add another chapter to your book is wearing a little thin????
First you tried the “They don't work” route and now you're trying this. If you want to see if a tuner helps why not just buy one of the slip on types and see what happens.
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Joe,
A tuner on a Mini 14 might be just what it needs but don't you think your child psychology game of trying to get people to try things so you can add another chapter to your book is wearing a little thin????
First you tried the “They don't work” route and now you're trying this. If you want to see if a tuner helps why not just buy one of the slip on types and see what happens.
Pat;
I know the tuner won't work on my Competitor pistol, cause the barrel is only 14” long.
There can never be enough chapters in the book, working on the THIRD edition now.
When will you have the micrometer adjustable stainless stel precisely machined barrel tuner completed for my M54? Are you going to make the hand-held 45/70 M die first? You need to spend less time here and more on my projects!!
joe b.
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Pat;
When will you have the micrometer adjustable stainless steel precisely machined barrel tuner completed for my M54? Are you going to make the hand-held 45/70 M die first? You need to spend less time here and more on my projects!!
joe b. Seeing where as these things are for you I've decided to fore go using stainless steel so you'll have to wait until my titanium order arrives and then I'll jump right on it.
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I'll put in 2 cents worth here against my better judgement. I understand both sides of this...the proposing the theory and the actual xperimenting itself. I am not a machinst but i have access to a guy who cam make anything period. He builds all my rifles. For over 40 years I have done two things primarily in my life...Build...I own a small construction company which I love and the other is shoot. I have spent the gross national product of ecuador on experiments....all kinds of them...somethimes to the point of burn out. I've had super accurate match rifles, rail guns...the works. The rail gun was an amazing thing if you want to truly test lubes etc...I should build another. Anyway..I learned a lot from those experiments...some worked...others were failures but a lot was learned. And the one thing I did find out was...in most cases....was once you printed or published the information the dogs were let loose. Any thing that contridicted “conventional wisdom” was very often scoffed at and many times called an outright lie. This happens enough you tend to keep it to yourself. I understand pat wanting to see these things taken to their end but it's often not just a matter of money. And I appauld guys like Joe who seem to think up things that seem inane but to me at least are fascinating, like the mold size to good bullet ratio, hot and cold mold thing. I have several things going on now so I couldn't offer to do the machining he asked for for no other reason than the idea fascinates me. Some people will always propose a theory and some will always carry it out but when it isn't it isn't always a matter of spending the money to find out.
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Very diplomatic which is appreciated at least on my end.
One of the good things that should come out of forums such as this is that opinions, experiences, and ideas can be bounced off one another before one person has to spend the time and money chasing something down which is why I started this thread in the first place.
The unfortunate fact in all of this is that in most cases it does cost money to get answers and in some cases a lot more than you're willing or able to pay. I have no problem with people who ask questions but aren't willing or can't spend the time and money to find out the answer but I do have a bit of a problem with people that think by using some age old child psychology ploy that someone else will go for it and spend theirs, can't speak for anyone else but to me it borders on being insulting sometimes.
Since I actually like Joe and think some of the weird stuff he comes up with is at least entertaining if not interesting to me I'm not bad rapping him. I just notice he doesn't have much problem with trying to pass the actual work, time, and expense off to someone else to find the answers to his questions.
Pat
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let me try and steer this ship back on topic. It's probably a lost cause by now, but here goes:
Who makes a tuner for CF rifles, and how much do they cost?
How much of an effect do you think they can have on accuracy?
Would you do your load work first, and then put the tuner on and try your 3-4 most accurate loads?
No offense to anyone, but so much of the time you guys sound like a bunch of eight year olds. Get over it and use the forum as it was intended; a great place to discuss and share accuracy testing.
God Bless you all!
Rich
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Rich,
From what I've found out a tuner for a bench rifle is going to be a home made proposition at the moment and the way I've read it their best use is for tuning after you've worked up a load. It sounds like they can make a big difference in accuracy with factory loaded ammunition but are used more for tweaking the gun instead of the charge in bench guns.
As you can see I don't know much about them but I still question their usefulness with a bullet that carries lube and don't know if there's a way around it. Maybe other peoples experiences are different than mine but temperature has a big effect on the way my lube acts and I can't see where barrel harmonics would have any effect on that. Maybe a barrel and bullet heater would be the equivilent of a tuner on a cast bullet rifle but I can't say.
Pat
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