MOLDS AND HEAT

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  • Last Post 05 December 2007
CB posted this 28 August 2007

Molds and Heat

I made a picture of how I think the alloy/bullet and mold heat and cool in the casting cycle, while casting “good” bullets.

The alloy in the pot is hot, the mold is empty and cooling.

The pour starts, the alloy in the mold cools as the mold heats up. At some point the bullet and sprue are solid, at some point the mold and the spout are separated. Either can be first.

The bullet in the mold and the mold cool.

The mold is opened, the bullet comes out of the mold.

The mold continues to cool.

The alloy in the pot is hot, the mold is empty and cooling.

And so on.

I'll try to attach the picture.

We go through a lot of gyrations casting bullets.

Sometimes we cool the mold or sprue plate on a wet surface between castings, a la Bruce B or Dick Howes or A.C. Gould. 

Sometimes we cool the mold, empty or full, with a fan.

Sometimes we wait a long time for the mold to cool before opening the sprue plate.

Sometimes we heat the mold on a hot plate.

Sometimes we put the mold in the alloy to heat it up, while casting.

Some of us say the old “Every mold is different, only trial and error will teach you how to cast with a given mold.” The old “there are too many variables to ever understand how it works” business.

I think that there are only two things we can vary in bullet casting, the temperature of the pot and time. Temperature is easy, but time has several components.

Time the spout is in contact with the sprue plate or is keeping a molten puddle of alloy on the sprue plate.

Time between moving the mold from the spout and opening the sprue plate.

Time between removing the bullet and closing the sprue plate and starting the next pour.

Aside from the temperature and time variations are the wet sponge, fan, hot plate businesses.

Time has some value to us, even to old retired guys like me. I'd like to cast good bullets faster, that's what most of the gyrations are about.

The gyrations are necessary because there's an imbalance between the alloy freezing temperature and the mold dimensions.

If the mold is too small, it has to be cooled down.

If the mold is too big, it has to be heated up.

A small mold example is my Ohaus 45-405 mold that casts 45 caliber 433 grain bullets. It is 1” X 1.25” X 1.4” high with a sprue plate 1” tapering to .5” X 1.5".

This mold needs a lot of cooling time.

A big mold example is my custom made 30 caliber mold casting a 185 grain bullet. It is 1.38” X 1.25” X 1.6” high with a sprue plate 1.25” tapering to 1” X 1.86” long. A heavy mold with a big thick sprue plate, it needs the pot running wide open and dipping in the alloy every 2-3 bullets to cast good bullets.

Another big example is the Eagan 58 grain 22 caliber mold, that took a lot opf heat and a lot of time to cast good bullets.

During the casting process molds cool off more than I'd ever expected, from ~500-550F to ~250-350F between solidification and re-pouring. Molds are excellent heat dispersers. Heat dispersion with molds of a given material, iron or brass or aluminum in still air, at room temperature is a function of the total heat in the mold and the surface area of the mold.

If the mold is going to cast a great big bullet, the mold needs to be big.

If the mold is going to cast a small bullet, the mold needs to be small.

Mold size, for maximum casting speed, is a function of  bullet weight, and maybe dimension ratios, but certainly of bullet weight.

This relationship is easily understood, I think, and easy to define.

What's the practical application, you (Pat) ask? If we understand the relationship, we can devise ways to build molds of the proper size, modify existing mold sizes, and/or insulate or enhance surface heat transfer.

I think that a too-big mold can be made smaller with an increase in casting speed.

I think that a too-small mold can be increased in surface area with an increase in casting speed.

Is this wrong? Or, is it time for some experiments?

joe brennan  

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RicinYakima posted this 28 August 2007

Joe,

Here are some thoughts on this subject:

Lyman single cavity moulds seem most efficient with a bullet weight between 170 and 200 grains. Lyman double cavity moulds seem best with a total of 300 to 450 grains of bullets.

You could calculate the total cast iron volume of the mould under water and compare it to the total volume of lead it takes to fill the cavity (..ies). Consider using the volume of the mould handles that touch the mould also.

You would have to do this for each metal that moulds are made of as each has a specific heat to raise or lower one degree, F. Then calculate the BTU's each quantity of lead per bullet yields to the mould and how much that raises the temperature.

You can increase the rate of heat dissipation by painting the outside of the mould body with flat black lacquer (bar-b-que black).

 Ric

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CB posted this 29 August 2007

Joe Brennan wrote: What's the practical application, you (Pat) ask? If we understand the relationship, we can devise ways to build molds of the proper size, modify existing mold sizes, and/or insulate or enhance .

Joe,

Who's the we in “ we can devise ways to build molds of the proper size, modify existing mold sizes, and/or insulate or enhance surface heat transfer"?

 Good luck getting a commercial or custom mould maker to cut caliber specific mould blocks unless you're willing to spend a bushel basket of rubles for a mould. I think changing the outside dimensions of an existing mould would encompass a lot more than just sticking it in a mill and hacking away. Do you have a plan devised for insulating a mould, I'm all ears?

You said.

"Some of us say the old “Every mold is different, only trial and error will teach you how to cast with a given mold.” The old “there are too many variables to ever understand how it works” business."

"A small mold example is my Ohaus 45-405 mold that casts 45 caliber 433 grain bullets. It is 1” X 1.25” X 1.4” high with a sprue plate 1” tapering to .5” X 1.5". This mold needs a lot of cooling time."

"A big mold example is my custom made 30 caliber mold casting a 185 grain bullet. It is 1.38” X 1.25” X 1.6” high with a sprue plate 1.25” tapering to 1” X 1.86” long. A heavy mold with a big thick sprue plate, it needs the pot running wide open and dipping in the alloy every 2-3 bullets to cast good bullets."

"Another big example is the Eagan 58 grain 22 caliber mold, that took a lot of  heat and a lot of time to cast good bullets."

----------------------------

It seems that by trial and error, how much effort is really involved here, you found out how to make all three moulds cast good bullets. It ain't about too many variables to ever be able to understand how it works all I want is for the mould to drop a good bullet and if I have to go through the extra labor of turning the temp control dial up a smidgen or wait the extra second I'll grit my teeth and do the twisting and waiting. What we're doing here is pouring melted lead into a cavity, just like casting tin soldiers but a lot less complicated. What you suggest probably does make some sense but if you're going to start looking for a definite relationship between a moulds physical dimensions and caliber size to use with a set temperature and casting  cadence you better turn off the computer and crack out the lawn mower because you're gonna need the extra dough.

Since it sounds like you have a few moulds that'd be perfect candidates for the milling machine or insulation test once you get the results from casting with a 1/2 x 1/2 inch .22 cal. mould or a mould wrapped in asbestos let me know how well it worked . Me, I'll just stick to turning the heat up a bit or spending the extra 200 seconds it'd take to get 100 good bullets.

I have to say Joe, you're one of, if not the most, intense cast bullet shooters I've ever seen or heard of. You must open your eyes every morning thinking of this stuff to keep the topics coming. You better take a break and get involved in one of the plinking topics before your head explodes or your calculator burns out. :)

Heard anything about your pistol?

Pat

 

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CB posted this 29 August 2007

pat i. wrote: Joe Brennan wrote: What's the practical application, you (Pat) ask? If we understand the relationship, we can devise ways to build molds of the proper size, modify existing mold sizes, and/or insulate or enhance .

Joe,

Who's the we in “ we can devise ways to build molds of the proper size, modify existing mold sizes, and/or insulate or enhance surface heat transfer"?

 Good luck getting a commercial or custom mould maker to cut caliber specific mould blocks unless you're willing to spend a bushel basket of rubles for a mould. I think changing the outside dimensions of an existing mould would encompass a lot more than just sticking it in a mill and hacking away. Do you have a plan devised for insulating a mould, I'm all ears?

You said.

"Some of us say the old “Every mold is different, only trial and error will teach you how to cast with a given mold.” The old “there are too many variables to ever understand how it works” business."

"A small mold example is my Ohaus 45-405 mold that casts 45 caliber 433 grain bullets. It is 1” X 1.25” X 1.4” high with a sprue plate 1” tapering to .5” X 1.5". This mold needs a lot of cooling time."

"A big mold example is my custom made 30 caliber mold casting a 185 grain bullet. It is 1.38” X 1.25” X 1.6” high with a sprue plate 1.25” tapering to 1” X 1.86” long. A heavy mold with a big thick sprue plate, it needs the pot running wide open and dipping in the alloy every 2-3 bullets to cast good bullets."

"Another big example is the Eagan 58 grain 22 caliber mold, that took a lot of  heat and a lot of time to cast good bullets."

----------------------------

It seems that by trial and error, how much effort is really involved here, you found out how to make all three moulds cast good bullets. It ain't about too many variables to ever be able to understand how it works all I want is for the mould to drop a good bullet and if I have to go through the extra labor of turning the temp control dial up a smidgen or wait the extra second I'll grit my teeth and do the twisting and waiting. What we're doing here is pouring melted lead into a cavity, just like casting tin soldiers but a lot less complicated. What you suggest probably does make some sense but if you're going to start looking for a definite relationship between a moulds physical dimensions and caliber size to use with a set temperature and casting  cadence you better turn off the computer and crack out the lawn mower because you're gonna need the extra dough.

Since it sounds like you have a few moulds that'd be perfect candidates for the milling machine or insulation test once you get the results from casting with a 1/2 x 1/2 inch .22 cal. mould or a mould wrapped in asbestos let me know how well it worked . Me, I'll just stick to turning the heat up a bit or spending the extra 200 seconds it'd take to get 100 good bullets.

I have to say Joe, you're one of, if not the most, intense cast bullet shooters I've ever seen or heard of. You must open your eyes every morning thinking of this stuff to keep the topics coming. You better take a break and get involved in one of the plinking topics before your head explodes or your calculator burns out. :)

Heard anything about your pistol?

Pat

 

I'm counting on you to do much of the work on the molds. Perhaps contribute a lot of money to the effort. Immerse yourself in the mold/heat business. Get into it.

I'm still reading responses here and on Cast Boolits. I think, maybe, we can learn something we don't know now about molds and sizes and temperatures.

I ordered the pistol the last Monday in July, delivery to be in 10 weeks. The $100 deposit check has been cashed. I think next Monday is 5 weeks, I'm hoping Thanksgiving and thinking Christmas. I hate to order brass and mold and sizing die and powder and ... this early, but I need to get going and cast bullets, load them in cases and send them off.

I'll be back. Remember those words to guide your life-Molds and Heat!!!

joe brennan  

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CB posted this 30 August 2007

Joe Brennan wrote: pat i. wrote: Joe Brennan wrote:

I'm counting on you to do much of the work on the molds. Perhaps contribute a lot of money to the effort. Immerse yourself in the mold/heat business. Get into it.

Joe,

Being a union man for the majority of my working life I can see you were either a politician, bureaucrat, or middle manager with a lot of ideas but no practical knowledge or intentions of getting your hands dirty in your past life. :)

Pat

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CB posted this 01 September 2007

Hey Joe; Your experiments and the results are welcomed by other casters who may be as anal as yorself. My experience goes back over 45 years and I am learning something every day. Trimming one tenth of an inch off a group when the group is five inches, is easy. Taking a tenth off my group is very tedious and I appreciate any help I can get. Thanks for your information, I expect to investigate how to take advantage of this education. When you come to the Daytona area, come as my guest and shoot Lawnsteel with us. Roy

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CB posted this 02 September 2007

Some molds are “hot", they require some cooling off between pours. We wait for the cooling of, or have a fan blowing on the mold, or use the Bruce B, Dick Howes, A. C. Gould method of cooling the mold on a wet sponge or pad. These molds are too hot. An example is the Ohaus 45-405, a 45 caliber 433 grain SC mold..

Some molds are just right, normal unhurried and un-slowed cycling through the casting operation gives us good bullets, fast.

Some molds are “cold", they require quick casting or dipping the mold in the lead or heating on a hot plate or operating at a high pot temperature or a combination of these or other “fixes". If you stop for a bit you get wrinkled bullets. These molds are too cold. An example is the custom #78-185, a 185 grain 30 caliber SC mold.

I took a sample of molds, only iron/steel molds because I don't want to deal with brass or aluminum now. No Hoch molds because the geometry is so different from Lyman/RCBS/NEI/Ohaus molds.

I measured the length, width and height of the molds.

Sprue plates all covered the mold top, and then hung over some amount. I traced the overhang onto graph paper and used that to estimate the overhang area.

I measured the bullet length, estimated a representative bullet weight, put it all in a spreadsheet, and calculated the mold surface area.

Then calculated bullet grains per square inch of mold surface area.

Then calculated the mold plus overhang surface area; and bullet grains per square inch of that surface area.

The Ohaus mold had the largest number of grains of bullet weight per square inch of mold or mold/sprue area, at 49.71 and 42.65 grains per square inch.

The #78-185 mold had the smallest number of grains of bullet weight per square inch of mold or mold/sprue area, at 15.56 and 12.73 grains per square inch.

The Ohaus mold is too hot because it has too much lead going into too small a mold.

The #78-185 mold is too cold because it has too much surface area on the mold and sprue plate for the size of the bullet.

I've attached the WORD copy of this with the table. I'm looking for data on iron molds for both smaller and larger than 30 calibers. Or any caliber, including light 30s.

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RicinYakima posted this 02 September 2007

How fortuitously timed Joe!

I was casting some bullets for a new 45/70 today, and used probably the largest bullet made in the Ideal small blocks..

Ideal 457191: blocks were 1.1 x 1.19 x 1.36 inches, with an area of 8.3876 in sq.

Bullet is 292 grains when made from 25/1 lead to tin alloy and the bullet is 0.790 inches long.

Grains per in sq. would be 34.8133

With sprue cutter area would 33.4955 grains per in sq.

Normally I cast in the winter with a shop temperature of about 35 degrees F. I can rest the moulds on a plate of Al while the sprue hardens and cast at 670 degrees at my normal pace.

Today it was 85 degrees in the shop (very unpleasant!) and cast at the lowest possible temperature, 655 degrees. I had to put four thicknesses of toweling, damp, on the Al plate and cast at about 2/3 my normal rate to keep from over heating the mould.

Hope this is some use to you.

Ric

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CB posted this 03 September 2007

RicinYakima wrote: How fortuitously timed Joe!

I was casting some bullets for a new 45/70 today, and used probably the largest bullet made in the Ideal small blocks..

Ideal 457191: blocks were 1.1 x 1.19 x 1.36 inches, with an area of 8.3876 in sq.

Bullet is 292 grains when made from 25/1 lead to tin alloy and the bullet is 0.790 inches long.

Grains per in sq. would be 34.8133

With sprue cutter area would 33.4955 grains per in sq.

Normally I cast in the winter with a shop temperature of about 35 degrees F. I can rest the moulds on a plate of Al while the sprue hardens and cast at 670 degrees at my normal pace.

Today it was 85 degrees in the shop (very unpleasant!) and cast at the lowest possible temperature, 655 degrees. I had to put four thicknesses of toweling, damp, on the Al plate and cast at about 2/3 my normal rate to keep from over heating the mould.

Hope this is some use to you.

Ric

Ric;

First, I'm surprised at the 1.1” length, parallel to the handles. My Lyman molds measure ~1” long SC and ~1.23” long DC. Would you check that please?

Then, without the sprue plate I get 33 grains per square inch, on the high side. I just made a forecast on Cast Boolits at 34, that the mold will cycle slower than you want, but won't be as horrible as my 45-405 at ~50. From your description, that's about where you are. This is a hot mold.

This thing is a lot easier than I ever thought. I do love them stats!! Here's he updated .XLS file.

joe brennan

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CB posted this 03 September 2007

Lyman molds are about 1” long SC and 1.23” long DC, parallel to the handles; 1.2” wide SC and 1.385” wide DC, and 1.37” high SC and 1.48” high DC.

The 314299 mold, sort of new, has a .182” thick sprue plate, all others 1/8” thick. This is a hot mold, at ~ 37 grains per square inch.

All Lyman sprue plates cover the mold top and then have an overhang. This overhang size and shape is the same for SC and DC molds, of widely varying vintages. The SC overhang is ~.75", the DC overhang is ~.1".

Does anyone have different measurements?

Need measurements and comments on RCBS molds.

Thanks;

joe brennan

 

 

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CB posted this 03 September 2007

gunarea wrote: Hey Joe; Your experiments and the results are welcomed by other casters who may be as anal as yorself. My experience goes back over 45 years and I am learning something every day. Trimming one tenth of an inch off a group when the group is five inches, is easy. Taking a tenth off my group is very tedious and I appreciate any help I can get. Thanks for your information, I expect to investigate how to take advantage of this education. When you come to the Daytona area, come as my guest and shoot Lawnsteel with us. Roy Thanks, Roy. I knew that those other guys were just kidding. Even if they're wrong.

Whenever we go to the Orlando area, I'll send you a message.

joe brennan

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RicinYakima posted this 03 September 2007

Joe,

I read the first measurements off a scale (which I must have not done well!). Here they are with a dial micometer: width is 1.189 inches, depth is 0.980 and height is 1.355. Hope it didn't mess up your data base. Humbly, Ric  :?

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CB posted this 04 September 2007

RicinYakima wrote: Joe,

I read the first measurements off a scale (which I must have not done well!). Here they are with a dial micometer: width is 1.189 inches, depth is 0.980 and height is 1.355. Hope it didn't mess up your data base. Humbly, Ric  :? Ric; These are the standard SC Lyman dimensions. I'm assuming that the sprue plate overhangs ~.75", and updated the spreadsheet.

Do you have any RCBS mold dimensions?

Thanks;

joe brennan

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RicinYakima posted this 04 September 2007

Joe,

I have a lot of moulds, Cramer, Lachmiller, Hensley & Gibs, Ohaus and RCBS in iron. Do you want a list of them all? I also have casting notes on most of them. I'm pretty well booked this week, but could get them the coming weekend.

Ric

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CB posted this 04 September 2007

Ric;

Yes, I'd like all the data I can get. Dimensions of the molds less the sprue plate, bullet weight, and about the sprue size.

Specially looking for small = 22 or 24 caliber molds, and big = 40 0r 44 or 45 caliber molds.

A few to start would be appreciated, don't go to a lot of trouble.

If you want, let me be Kreskin. You tell me the dimensions of the mold and the bullet weight, and I'll tell you if the mold is “hot” or “cold".

or

You tell me about a “hot” or “cold” mold, and I'll tell you the square inches of mold surface.

Is this possible? I think so, even with the small sample I've got so far.

Thanks;

joe brennan

 

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RicinYakima posted this 07 September 2007

More mould dimensions you requested.

1. SAECO, three cavity for 158 grain 38 SWC's. Width 1.32/depth 1.77/ height 1.50. Plate is .20 thick and has 0.942 in squared knockoff lever.

2 Hensley and Gibbs two cavity for 170 grains 30 cal flat nose. Width is 1.25/depth 1.58/height is 1.52. Plate is 0.19 thick and has 0.48 in squared knockoff lever.

3 NEI (iron), one cavity 30 caliber 188 grains round nose. Width is 1.23/depth is 1.75/height is 1.50. Plate is 0.19 thick and has 1.09 in squared knockoff lever.

4 Cramer, 2 cavity 44 caliber 250 grain SWC. Width is 1.31/ depth is 1.75/height is 1.50. Plate is .20 thick and has 0.940 in squared of knockoff lever.

I checked them with a dial caliper this time. They are correct.  Ric

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John Boy posted this 07 September 2007

Why hasn't there been any mention in this thread of The 8-Phase Casting Cycle? http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Part1.htm>http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Part1.htm

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billwnr posted this 07 September 2007

John Boy wrote: Why hasn't there been any mention in this thread of The 8-Phase Casting Cycle? http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Part1.htm>http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Part1.htm Hmmmm... this article says the hotter the mould the heavier the bullet.

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RicinYakima posted this 08 September 2007

However, this is intended for lead / tin alloys. These are true solutions. There is no discussion of bi-metallic tin / antimony and free antimony crystal alloys that are the basis of WW alloys that most of us use. I don't think there is any disagreement that lead / tin alloys will make bigger and heavier bullets the hotter the mould. Ric

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billwnr posted this 08 September 2007

I must have read one of the earlier posts wrong. I thought it was stated the hotter the mould the lighter the bullet as the expansion of the mould gave less area for the alloy to fill.

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CB posted this 08 September 2007

RicinYakima wrote: However, this is intended for lead / tin alloys. These are true solutions. There is no discussion of bi-metallic tin / antimony and free antimony crystal alloys that are the basis of WW alloys that most of us use. I don't think there is any disagreement that lead / tin alloys will make bigger and heavier bullets the hotter the mould. Ric I disagree. Any alloy freezes at a certain temperature, no matter what temperature the pot of alloy is at, no matter what temperature the mold is at. (We're talking about while casting good bullets.)

Then I see the pour, the mold heat up as the alloy gives heat to the mold, mold and alloy reaching the freeze or begin-to-be-slushy point, and so on. Thus, I think neither mold nor alloy temp affects bullet size or weight, for any given alloy.

I think.

joe brennan

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CB posted this 08 September 2007

billwnr wrote: Hmmmm... this article says the hotter the mould the heavier the bullet.

Yes it does. I think he's mistaken. Looking for results of a trial.

joe brennan

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RicinYakima posted this 08 September 2007

Bill,

Envision it this way: as the iron in the mould expands from increased heat it does so in all directions, taller and wider and deeper. The cavity is not going to get smaller, as no dimensions are getting less.

With lead / tin liquid solutions, the bigger the cavity the upon solidification of the liquid, the bigger and heavier the bullet.

However, with mixtures of lead, tin, antimony, arsenic and miscellaneous other metals, during the “pasty” phase from liquid to solid as it cools inside the mould does different things. That is the controversy. I'm just a simple chemist and don't know and can't predict what it will measure and weigh.

Ric

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RicinYakima posted this 08 September 2007

Joe wrote:

"I disagree. Any alloy freezes at a certain temperature, no matter what temperature the pot of alloy is at, no matter what temperature the mold is at. (We're talking about while casting good bullets.)"

AAH! With the last qualifier in that statement, it is true. Each alloy does have a final fusion point, and with stability of mould and pot temperature each should be identical.

"Then I see the pour, the mold heat up as the alloy gives heat to the mold, mold and alloy reaching the freeze or begin-to-be-slushy point, and so on. Thus, I think neither mold nor alloy temp affects bullet size or weight, for any given alloy."

I think this may also be true, if you have heat intensity (degrees) and heat quantity (BTU's) in stability. Which it must be if (We're talking about while casting good bullets.) This point is when the surface of the cavity is at the fusion point. However the temperature of the mass of the mould will determine the volume of the cavity inside the mould.

As the cavity of the mould changes size as it cools, the “pasty” phase can be as much as 140 degrees F. with some WW/scrap alloys. The rate that the mould gives off heat may (?) effect the size/weight of the alloy.

I am looking forward to your experiments and results.

Ric

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billwnr posted this 08 September 2007

RicinYakima wrote: Bill,

Envision it this way: as the iron in the mould expands from increased heat it does so in all directions, taller and wider and deeper. The cavity is not going to get smaller, as no dimensions are getting less.

With lead / tin liquid solutions, the bigger the cavity the upon solidification of the liquid, the bigger and heavier the bullet.

However, with mixtures of lead, tin, antimony, arsenic and miscellaneous other metals, during the “pasty” phase from liquid to solid as it cools inside the mould does different things. That is the controversy. I'm just a simple chemist and don't know and can't predict what it will measure and weigh.

Ric

Ric,  I think you and I think alike.  The hotter the mould the heavier the bullet.   I also say the light bullets come from the first part of the casting session.  I don't think the first ones fill the mould out properly and that's why they are light. 

Joe,  Read his article.  It says he's done a bunch of casts and weighed them.  Looks like proof to me.

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CB posted this 09 September 2007

RicinYakima wrote: More mould dimensions you requested.

1. SAECO, three cavity for 158 grain 38 SWC's. Width 1.32/depth 1.77/ height 1.50. Plate is .20 thick and has 0.942 in squared knockoff lever.

2 Hensley and Gibbs two cavity for 170 grains 30 cal flat nose. Width is 1.25/depth 1.58/height is 1.52. Plate is 0.19 thick and has 0.48 in squared knockoff lever.

3 NEI (iron), one cavity 30 caliber 188 grains round nose. Width is 1.23/depth is 1.75/height is 1.50. Plate is 0.19 thick and has 1.09 in squared knockoff lever.

4 Cramer, 2 cavity 44 caliber 250 grain SWC. Width is 1.31/ depth is 1.75/height is 1.50. Plate is .20 thick and has 0.940 in squared of knockoff lever.

I checked them with a dial caliper this time. They are correct.  Ric

Ric;

I'm assuming that the sprue plate measurement is the overhang. Then the SAECO mold has a sprue plate that overhangs the mold .942” on one side, that the overhang has a surface area of .942 X 2 square inches.

Here are my predictions: (I wish I had that envelope to hold up to my head.)

Your NEI 30 cal SC mold is a bear to use, it is a COLD mold, you have to run the pot very hot, cast fast, any delay in the process cools it down and makes wrinkles or imperfections in the bullet. This mold has more surface area than my coldest mold. 

The H&G DC 30 cal mold is in the IDEAL vicinity, it is easy and fast to cast with.

SAECO 3C 38 SWC is also close to IDEAL

Your Cramer DC 44 cal mold is like the 314299 mold. It takes a while for the sprues to harden, you have to cast slower than you'd like, the pot can be turned down, it ain't horrible but it ain't IDEAL.

I've got three series on some molds.

First is bare mold surface area, the LENGTH of the molod, parallel to the handles, the width, across both halves, and the height. From these calculate the surface area, forgetting the handle grooves etc. Then calc. bullet grains/sq. in.

Second is the area of the sprue plate overhang, doubled, added to the above for another surface area measurement. Then calc. bullet wt. / sq. in. 

Third is the weight of the mold; the lady at the post office is weighing molds for me, I hope to get some more weighed this week.  Then calc. bullet wt. in gr./ mold wt. in oz.; grains per ounce.

The three track pretty well so far, any of the three seem to be about in the same place in order, first or third or ninth.

Have I got your sprue plate thing right?

joe brennan 

 

 

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CB posted this 09 September 2007

Here's the updated work book.

On the mold/pot temp and bullet wt./size: I'm fairly happy with my understanding. I won't cast until late Oct./Nov because it's 90 degrees here and I cast outside. At that time I'll cast and try to see what happens at hot mold/pot and colder pot/mold temps.

I'd welcome any other casting data, specially if it meant that I didn't have to do it. So get that pot fired up, cast some HOT and wait for the sprues to cool, then cast som hot, with fast sprue cooling, weigh them ALL that pass the visual inspection and give us the data. Need the weight of EACH bullet in each of the two categories, HOT and hot.

joe brennan

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RicinYakima posted this 09 September 2007

Joe,

Yes, you have the sprue plate thing right, as they are all square projections and easy to calculate.

The NEI is a hard mould to use. It only casts good bullets, so far, from linotype. I have to rest the mould on the edge of the pot while the sprue hardens. I can't cast fast enough with my bad arm to keep it hot with WW+tin alloy. Luckily, I only use it for my 30/40 Krag, that isn't shot very much.

The Cramer is just right for my favorite casting speed.

The SAECO and the H&G both are a little cold for me, but remember that I do almost all of my casting in the winter, when it is about 40 degrees in my shop.

Ric

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CB posted this 21 September 2007

I have at least partial data on 18 molds now. There are three variables calculated: Bullet grains / mold surface area (grains/square inch) Bullet grains / mold + sprue plate overhang surface area  (grains/square inch) Bullet grains / mold weight (grains / ounce)

It looks like the three variables track together, pretty well; so perhaps any of the three is a reasonable variable to talk about. So, Bullet grains / mold surface area (grains/square inch).

This varies from 8 to 50, rounding off. At the 8 end we have cold molds that require a hot pot, a torch, a hot plate, fast casting, dipping the mold in the alloy or some other help. These molds tend to make a lot of wrinkled bullets.

At the 50 end we have hot molds, that require a long wait for the bullet to harden, air blowers, wet-pad-cooling, aluminum plate cooling or some other help. These molds tend to be quite slow in operation.

I still need some more information, particularly about iron or steel molds that are hot or cold.

I just got an RCBS 308-165-SIL DC mold with the variable of 25; this mold should be about ideal, casting good bullets about as fast as I can operate it.

joe brennan

 

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CB posted this 25 September 2007

I'm negotiating (begging) for a couple of molds from RCBS for testing. I've asked for DC molds, 22 cal 55 gr and .446 370 gr.-I think that these are the largest and smallest bullet weight sum molds in the RCBS lineup.

I think the 22 will be cold and the .446 will be hot. 

I have no use for the bullets, and want to invite one or two testers to wring these molds out. Maybe somebody who uses 22 and 44 bullets in rifles.

If RCBS will send the molds.

Anybody?

Thanks;

joe brennan   

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CB posted this 09 October 2007

I got the two molds from RCBS today, a 22-055-sp, I think is the COLDEST RCBS mold, and a 44-370-FN mismarked 45-370-FN I think, it measures ~.447 with my caliper-it's supposed to be .446", for 11 MM Mauser etc. This DC mold is I think the HOTTEST RCBS mold.

My plan is to get volunteers to cast with these, people who are experienced casters who'll give the mold a shot and report back on how it casts, people who have use for the 22 and 446 caliber bullets.

Then, if the casting volunteers report that the molds are HOT and/or COLD, we'll get the machinists to work modifying the molds to make them closer to IDEAL, then have the casters try the modified molds.

RCBS has been warned not to expect the molds back, that we're going to butcher them up, but that I will make sure that they know what we have learned.

At the start there are at least three things that I see that RCBS could change to make the molds “better". I/we owe them for their continuing help.

I'll pay the postage, who will volunteer to be a caster? Got a 22CF? Got a .446” or 11 MM something? Don't be shy!!!

Ric??

BTW, I think I've worked out a way to estimate RCBS mold weight. Yes, Pat, using the computer.

joe brennan  

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linoww posted this 09 October 2007

Joe Brennan wrote: I'll pay the postage, who will volunteer to be a caster? Got a 22CF? Got a .446” or 11 MM something? Don't be shy!!!  

 

Joe-

I have an RCBS 55 sp on hand.It doesnt shoot all that well for me so far,but it produces good bullets.It takes about 15-20 casts to heat up and cooks away.I always use a small fan to cool the sprue and vent the pot.I find the Eagan  molds the best to keep temp long term in the 22 calibers.I have three of them (one I got from you in fact)

I put it on top of the Lyman pot while warming up.The first bullet is perfect enough.I have shot the first 10 bullets cast and have grouped as well as all  the others from the casting session.I cast with the temp on full ,about 700 deg.

 

What info can I get for you? I am lost on the specific data required.

 

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 09 October 2007

"I'm just a simple chemist and don't know and can't predict what it will measure and weigh."

 

I thought you were a retired fireman

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 October 2007

Hi Joe... hey, I would be interested in participating in this “wild thang” ....  I have some experience in molding plastics, and have a few thoughts on this...  in plastic molds, we use normally water cooling, and keep careful records, after a few thousand parts we start to get them right ... not so much unlike our casted bullets, si?

oh, the .22 mold would be more interesting, as that might be ” too big” a mold ...  too cold until it gets too hot (heh heh ) ...  one reason that .22 cast bullets are considered nasty little critters ....

One of the products we made at one time was a few thousand clip-on heat sinks for electric motor controllers for model race cars ... wonder if I have some blanks around in the back ??   would be fun to have ” adjustable surface area, eh?   heh heh, I knew this would keep you awake at night .....

later  ken at deltawerkes

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joeb33050 posted this 11 October 2007

linoww wrote: Joe-

I have an RCBS 55 sp on hand.It doesnt shoot all that well for me so far,but it produces good bullets.It takes about 15-20 casts to heat up and cooks away.I always use a small fan to cool the sprue and vent the pot.I find the Eagan  molds the best to keep temp long term in the 22 calibers.I have three of them (one I got from you in fact)

I put it on top of the Lyman pot while warming up.The first bullet is perfect enough.I have shot the first 10 bullets cast and have grouped as well as all  the others from the casting session.I cast with the temp on full ,about 700 deg.

 

What info can I get for you? I am lost on the specific data required.

 

Geo.

George;

Others have trouble with and consider this RCBS 22-055-FN orSP to be a COLD mold. You don't, I don't know why not. I need nother opinion. It may have to do with the acceptable level of aggravation.

joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 11 October 2007

Ken Campbell, Iowa wrote: Hi Joe... hey, I would be interested in participating in this “wild thang” ....  I have some experience in molding plastics, and have a few thoughts on this...  in plastic molds, we use normally water cooling, and keep careful records, after a few thousand parts we start to get them right ... not so much unlike our casted bullets, si?

oh, the .22 mold would be more interesting, as that might be ” too big” a mold ...  too cold until it gets too hot (heh heh ) ...  one reason that .22 cast bullets are considered nasty little critters ....

One of the products we made at one time was a few thousand clip-on heat sinks for electric motor controllers for model race cars ... wonder if I have some blanks around in the back ??   would be fun to have ” adjustable surface area, eh?   heh heh, I knew this would keep you awake at night .....

later  ken at deltawerkesKen;I'll send you the mold, after I find your address. Will also send postage $. I'm thinking that the mold I sent can be made closer to “ideal” with a big aluminum sprue plate, big in area and thickness. joe b.

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CB posted this 19 November 2007

Today, 11/19/07 I cast, for the second time, with the RCBS DC 44-370-FN. This mold casts 2 370 grain bullets and is the “Hottest” RCBS mold; meaning that the total bullet weight of 740 grains is the most of any RCBS mold.

            I set the Lee 20# pot at “9", balanced the mold on the rim, and let it heat up for 50 minutes. It was ~890 degrees today. Alloy was at 750 degrees, alloy was 25:1, quite soft.

            I cast about 150 good bullets, cast until the alloy was too shallow to dip well.

            At the end, the alloy temperature was 750 degrees. I thought the pot heated up as the level went down?????

            After pouring, I had to wait. Inspected 2 bullets, fiddled with stuff, hummed and waited. If I didn't wait, I got holes in bullet bases, a symptom that the sprue plate was opened when the mold was too hot.

            This mold is HOT. Maybe I could reduce the pot temp. but that didn't work first time out of the chute.

            Still looking for testers.

joe b.

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CB posted this 20 November 2007

Joe Perhaps because it is an electric pot controlled by a thermostat the temperature variance isn't as drastic as a gas fired pot?.

My casting set up is gas fired (in the garage of course) and I get, depending on pot level, large temperature swings. I usually try to cast at 750 - 800 degrees, but have had the pot go above 800 degrees if the level is too low...

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linoww posted this 20 November 2007

Ken Campbell, Iowa wrote: oh, the .22 mold would be more interesting, as that might be ” too big” a mold ...  too cold until it gets too hot (heh heh ) ...  one reason that .22 cast bullets are considered nasty little critters ....  

I have never found the 22's to be hard to cast with,just hard to inspect.I  only use linotype with them and even my 4 cavity Lyman 225438 is easy to keep temp on.They do take a bit longer to heat up,but not unresonably long.The only 22 mold i seem to be able to overheat is a Lee custom run 2 cavity .22 /50 grainer.I am in the middle of a 22 caliber CB kick and have 14 molds I am casting from at the time.They are from Eagan/NEI/LBT/Lyman/RCBS and the Lee mentioned and all are as easy as any .30 I have used.

 

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 22 November 2007

On 11/20/07 I set the Lee 20# pot going with linotype and the 31141 DC mold balanced on the rim. Reduced the temperature, ended with the thermostat set at a bit over “7". Started casting at 2PM, fiddled a bit, stopped at 4PM. It was necessary to wait for the sprue to harden, else there were torn holes in bullet bases. I inspected two bullets in that sprue hardening time. In the 2 hours I cast 245 good bullets. Starting alloy temperature was 630 degrees, ending was 690 degrees. Don't know why the change, I thought the temp had stabilized when I started casting. Standard deviations were .085 and .124 grains, so the bullet weights remained stable.

joe b.

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CB posted this 22 November 2007

Interesting.. How long did you let the pot heat up? Is it possible that with that temperature setting on your pot that it did not reach the optimum temp for that setting? It could also be the temperature range of that particular setting.

Lee pots are not expensive for a reason, somewhere they reduce costs to provide the unit at an affordable price. John Lee is a CBA member, perhaps asking him would give the answer you need from an engineering point of view.

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RicinYakima posted this 22 November 2007

Joe, If you will refer to my article in The Fouling Shot from earlier this year, you will note that this is within the range of variation for mechanical thermostats. Also I have found that once the lead level drops below the level to contact the sides of the crucible that covers the coils, temperature swings increase. Sixty degrees variation from 3/4 full to 1/4 is normal with my Lee pot, running on the mechanical thermostat. Ric

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CB posted this 22 November 2007

Jeff Bowles wrote: Interesting.. How long did you let the pot heat up? Is it possible that with that temperature setting on your pot that it did not reach the optimum temp for that setting? It could also be the temperature range of that particular setting.

Lee pots are not expensive for a reason, somewhere they reduce costs to provide the unit at an affordable price. John Lee is a CBA member, perhaps asking him would give the answer you need from an engineering point of view.

I turned the pot on at noon, added ingots, etc., fiddled with it getting the temp down. I've always thought that when the thermostat cycles the pot that it is at a stable temp. It was cycling at 630 degrees after a long heat up.

All I know is what happened, and the day before the pot was same temp full as way low, 750 degrees if I remember.

joe b.

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CB posted this 22 November 2007

RicinYakima wrote: Joe, If you will refer to my article in The Fouling Shot from earlier this year, you will note that this is within the range of variation for mechanical thermostats. Also I have found that once the lead level drops below the level to contact the sides of the crucible that covers the coils, temperature swings increase. Sixty degrees variation from 3/4 full to 1/4 is normal with my Lee pot, running on the mechanical thermostat. Ric

But it didn't do it Monday.

Next to lower temp to try to speed things up.

Anyone else out there cast bullets?

joe b.

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CB posted this 22 November 2007

That is odd, but like I said before.. Maybe your thermostat is failing.. I know they don't last forever. I think it is a bi-metal design and those do fatigue in time. I would send an email to John Lee and ask him. [email protected]

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CB posted this 26 November 2007

The time taken to cast good bullets is reduced when the alloy temperature is reduced.

I'm starting to believe that the first step in a casting session should be to find the lowest thermostat setting and temperature where good bullets can be cast.

I'm also starting to believe that recording the thermostat setting, alloy temperature at the beginning and end of the session and a description of the alloy and the bullet weights is important in allowing fast casting.

On 11/25/07 I cast 31141 at as low a heat as I could. Starting temperature at 1:45 PM was 660 degrees, ending temperature at 3:30 PM was 720 degrees, with the Lee 20# pot set at a shy “7".

I'm left handed, so there's a lot of hand-changing and fumbling going on. There was a wait of only a few seconds for the sprue to become dull, signalling that the alloy had hardened. If I opened the sprue plate too soon, the bullet bases showed holes-a sure signal. On 11/20/07 the sprue took a long time to harden, enough time to inspect two bullets before opening the sprue plate.

The bullets cast on 11/20/07 of “linotype” are too hard to go through the Lyman 450 lubrisizer, so lead was added to the “lino".

(Cavities are marked with dots, one up top and the other down at the bottom of the nose.)

There were 172 good Top Dot bullets, average weight was 166.1 grains, standard deviation was .168 grains.

There were 174 good Top Dot bullets, average weight was 166.8 grains, standard deviation was .159 grains.

(These standard deviations are high, however the outliers are used as foulers. Thus of the Top Dot bullets, only the center-weight 155 bullets, with average weight of 166.2 grains and standard deviation of .111 grains will be used “seriously".)

These bullets are ~4 grains heavier than those cast 11/20/07.

On 11/20/07 it took 2 hours to cast 245 good bullets, a rate of 123 bullets per hour.

On 11/25/07 it took 1 3/4 hour to cast 346 good bullets, a rate of 198 bullets per hour.

            As I suspected, casting speed is determined by the temperature of the alloy as well as the dimensions and weight of the mold and bullets cast.

 

            joe b.

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linoww posted this 26 November 2007

George;

Others have trouble with and consider this RCBS 22-055-FN orSP to be a COLD mold. You don't, I don't know why not. I need nother opinion. It may have to do with the acceptable level of aggravation.

joe b.

 

I cast 22's out of lino exclusively and at 700deg.I also cool the sprue with a fan between pours. This may be why it works for me. I have 14 22 caliber molds and the only one I fight is a particular two cavity 225415. It's not cold per say, just takes a special pouring style to get good bullets. The 2 cavity LBT 60 Sp I have may be considered "coldâ€?, but dipping the corner gets it up and running in no time. I pretty much cast until I get a style that works and don't analyze a particular mold, I have a book I keep notes on mold peculiarities  so I don't have to fight it the next time around.

 

George

 

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 26 November 2007

The bullets cast 11/20/07 would NOT go through the Lyman 450. Sized .312", .311” then .309", lubed with Pam, no go. I was planning to get a Lee .309” nose first sizer, didn't want to melt the bullets down. 

Today I lubed sized the 11/25 07 bullets, thought I'd try the 11/20 bullets, figure something out.

The HARD 11/20 bullets  sized fine in a .309” die, work was involved, but they went through. These bullets got SOFT in 6 days.

joe b. 

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Paul Pollard posted this 26 November 2007

Regarding the temperature swings of the melting pot. I use a 20 lb Lee pot which I noticed  was doing this a couple years ago. Bypassed the thermostat to run continuously. The same thing happens; some days it won't go above 700 degrees, other days it goes near 800 degrees. The pot is usually 3/4 full or better. My thermometer is a Lyman.

The RCBS 22-55-SP mould is not hard to use. Run it hot and it fills out. Some days I use a fan to cool the sprue and other days I don't. Doesn't seem to make any difference. It fills well and just takes longer for the sprue to harden without the fan. The ease of use is also true with 2 Eagan moulds, a Lyman, and an LBT; all .22 caliber. The first RCBS mould did have some trouble filling without caved in places on the bands. By using mould release in the vent lines, it cast much better.

Has anyone measured the range of hardness you get in a cast bullet session, using one pot of metal and one steady run? Just checked my last batch which shot poorly and the BHN went from a low of 20 to a high of 30, tested on an LBT tester. Never really looked at the hardness this closely before, but it could be the cause of some teeth nashing lately. Maybe those softer ones didn't like 2700 fps too much in the .22? These were cast with the RCBS 22-55.

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CB posted this 29 November 2007

George and Paul say that they have no trouble with the RCBS DC 22-55 mold; others have a lot of trouble.

Paul and George; would you tell the story of a casting session with this mold?

Start and stop times, good bullets cast, alloy, start temp, finish temp, bullet weights, anything else you can think of???

Ken Campbell is preparing to cast with this mold that RCBS donated, he seems to be doing a very thorough preparation.

I had a lot of trouble with the Eagan mold I sold George, had to cut off most of the sprue plate to get bullets to cast.  George says he has no problem. Don Eagan's instructions said that his are not high production molds.

I'm still thinking that some of this has to do with aggravation level; the bullets per hour will clear that up.

Thanks;

joe b. 

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CB posted this 29 November 2007

Joe Brennan wrote: George and Paul say that they have no trouble with the RCBS DC 22-55 mold; others have a lot of trouble.

Joe,

Is everybody using the same alloy? I find when I cast #2Alloy that I have to slow down, especially with 22 and 243 double-cavity moulds. With Linotype I can cast as fast and hot as I can. When Lino bullets frost, it doesn't hurt. When my #2Alloy bullets frost, they are smaller where the frost side is and that side is always between the cavities.............Dan

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CB posted this 30 November 2007

No; everybody is not using the same alloy, and we don't want them to.

As tin and/or antimony are added to lead, the melting point of the alloy goes down. Lino melts and casts at a lower temp then #2, #2 lower than 25:1.

We can cast at a lower temp the more tin/antimony.

Some may have no trouble casting lino bullets in a “cold” mold, WW bullets may be more difficult, 25:1 close to impossible.

I cast the RCBS 44-370 in 25:1 since most shooters want to use a soft BP bullet. Unlikely that anyone wants these in lino.

The 22s might be used from RF velocity soft to HTWW to lino.

It's becoming obvious to me that we've never been told to search out and record the lowest alloy temp for a given alloy mold combo; and that across the range of molds from cold to hot, good bullets/hour is determined by alloy temp, lower =>B/H.

As usual, it's hard to pin this down without help.

joe b.

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CB posted this 30 November 2007

linoww wrote:  I have a book I keep notes on mold peculiarities  so I don't have to fight it the next time around.

Joe,

I think Geo explains your 'hot mould-cold mould' concept in just one sentence without even a spreadsheet.  If your results vary so much between casters using the same mould, then I'd say the fault is a combination of caster/alloy, not manufacturer's mould block design. I've kept casting notes also, like Geo says. Every mould seems a little different in how it works best whether its 'hot or cold', 'wet or dry', sticky or loose', 'easy or hard', 'big cavity or small cavity', 'steel or aluminum'. Though I thank you for the cast testing between multiple casters, which was most interesting.

Hot mould?    Cold mould?   :barf:

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CB posted this 30 November 2007

Dan Willems wrote: linoww wrote:  I have a book I keep notes on mold peculiarities  so I don't have to fight it the next time around.

Joe,

I think Geo explains your 'hot mould-cold mould' concept in just one sentence without even a spreadsheet.  If your results vary so much between casters using the same mould, then I'd say the fault is a combination of caster/alloy, not manufacturer's mould block design. I've kept casting notes also, like Geo says. Every mould seems a little different in how it works best whether its 'hot or cold', 'wet or dry', sticky or loose', 'easy or hard', 'big cavity or small cavity', 'steel or aluminum'. Though I thank you for the cast testing between multiple casters, which was most interesting.

Hot mould?    Cold mould?   :barf:

Dan;

One of us is missing the boat, and I prefer to think that I'm on board.

Let me sum up:

Some molds are made too hot (I have one, will send it so you can see.)

Some molds are made too cold (I have one and will send it so you can see)

Hot or cold affects bullets per hour

Simple fixes wait in the wings, I've got them!

Casting instructions should start with “Cast as with alloy as cool as you can and write it down"

Now, additional data would help solidify the relationships, and I'm working on getting that data from folks; but the principles are clear right now.

As is always true here, opinions abound while actual data is quite thin on the ground.

Why are these 900 supposedly interested individuals loath to post or test? Are they really here? Are you guys reading this? ? Why don't you guys say something?

joe b.

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linoww posted this 30 November 2007

 "had a lot of trouble with the Eagan mold I sold George, had to cut off most of the sprue plate to get bullets to cast.  George says he has no problem. Don Eagan's instructions said that his are not high production molds."

 

Joe-

I replaced it with a full sprue cutter and it worked no different than your cut down version.Both worked perfectly.

 

 55sp notes-

I just heated my RCBS 55SP mold on top of the pot for ½ hr while heating up. Alloy was linotype at 750.( i turn it down as the mold heats up) I cast 15 casts with it. First bullets looked petty good, with a couple of small wrinkles. After 4 casts they were perfect, but not the color I like. I stopped at 15 casts as all were keepers. Every bullet (cavities separated) weight was the same  except for the 6th cast from the front cavity that was 2/10's light. The rear cavity had three bullets 1/10g light. This is my experience with this(and other 22's) mold most of the time.

 I see Mr. Pollard has similar experience with the 22's as I do. Maybe we just use our 22's more and are familiar with them,I cast over 3000 this last month.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 30 November 2007

 "Why don't you guys say something?"

Like Geo. and others, I keep notes of cranky moulds. I don't care how fast I can cast bullets, to be honest. This is recreation for me, so 30+ an hour, of perfect bullets, makes me happy.

I think you have this topic nailed down, concerning alloy, mould mass and temperture.

Ric

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linoww posted this 30 November 2007

"This is recreation for me, so 30+ an hour, of perfect bullets, makes me happy."

I hope your not serious<G>

I fired up my LBT 60Sp last night and I was able to cast 235 good bullets in the first one hour perioid, including a very brief warm-up. I segregate bullet into lots of 100 in blocks and shoot within aâ€? lotâ€? to be safe of alloy consistency.

My Eagan 22's are very “fast” with hot metal and cooling fan and I get over 100 per hour at times.

 Geo.

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Paul Pollard posted this 30 November 2007

Geo. wrote: “I fired up my LBT 60Sp last night and I was able to cast 235 good bullets in the first one hour perioid, including a very brief warm-up."

What do these bullets weigh when cast of linotype and what is their length? Thank you.

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CB posted this 02 December 2007

Paul Pollard wrote: Geo. wrote: “I fired up my LBT 60Sp last night and I was able to cast 235 good bullets in the first one hour perioid, including a very brief warm-up."

What do these bullets weigh when cast of linotype and what is their length? Thank you.

Paul (and maybe George);

Would you do the following tests??

1 Cast with lino for at least an hour. Write down start temp, finish temp, # of good bullets cast, anything else of interet.

  1. Cast with WW or some much-softer-than-lino alloy for at least an hour. Write down the same info.

This without heating the mold on a hot plate or in a torch-only heating it up on the pot edge.

This will give us a notion about the effect of alloy on mold “cold” ness.

I think you'll have trouble casting softer bullets, that the pot temp must be increased, that you'll see wrinkles, and that bullets per hour goes down.

Thanks;

joe b. 

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CB posted this 02 December 2007

RicinYakima wrote:  "Why don't you guys say something?"

Like Geo. and others, I keep notes of cranky moulds. I don't care how fast I can cast bullets, to be honest. This is recreation for me, so 30+ an hour, of perfect bullets, makes me happy.

I think you have this topic nailed down, concerning alloy, mould mass and temperture.

Ric

Ric;

Call me crazy, but there's always the chance, however minute, that I'm wrong. I know, I'm being foolish, but I just can't get the thought out of my mind.

joe b.

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RicinYakima posted this 02 December 2007

Joe,

A)  Each of us is always wrong about some things. 

B)  Each of us is always right about some things.

C)  Each of us doesn't know which of our A's and which B's are true.

This is what makes discussion, debate and conversation entertaining!

Ric

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linoww posted this 03 December 2007

Paul Pollard wrote: Geo. wrote: “I fired up my LBT 60Sp last night and I was able to cast 235 good bullets in the first one hour perioid, including a very brief warm-up."

What do these bullets weigh when cast of linotype and what is their length? Thank you.

LBT 60 SP “TAPEREDâ€?

S.P.G.C.

 WEIGHT IN LINO 56g

LENGTH-      .662

.226 BASE/ TAPER TO .220 IN .400  TO SP OGIVE START

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 03 December 2007

I think you'll have trouble casting softer bullets, that the pot temp must be increased, that you'll see wrinkles, and that bullets per hour goes down.

Thanks; I do have more trouble casting 22's with softer metal like w/w so i dont do it.I use what works,and small bullets under .6.5 mm seem to be better casting with hard metal like lino.

 

I cast the RCBS 180 Sp last night witha linoww mix (about 50/50) and my production was 34-38 bullets as timed in 3  seperate ten minute periods in the middle of the 2 hour casting session.I forgot to get an acccurate startup time so i couldnt accuratly get a per hour rate.I ended up with 362 good bullets as visually inpected(All I do with a good casting mold)

Most of my casting is ladle work.

 

Geo.

 

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Paul Pollard posted this 03 December 2007

linoww,

Thank you for the information.

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linoww posted this 04 December 2007

The LBT looks alot like the 55Sp just without a two diameter configuration.I am going to order the 66g version for my 12 twist Savage.I will have it made to a similar taper as my 60SP.

I see you had good luck with the RCBS 55 Sp at the Nationals.I can never get it to do that well.The RCBS mold casts like a dream I just wish I could get it to shoot.Do you taper it in a bump die,or is your .222 throated a particular way? I get 1.5” (at best 1.25") out of my Savage 12 that willl do 1/2 to 3/4"(best groups) with the Eagan 62 or LBT 60 on perfect days.I have tried it in 5 rifles from 1-9” to 1-14” twist and the results are about the same.I will say it never does much worse that 1-3/4".

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 04 December 2007

  1. Cast with WW or some much-softer-than-lino alloy for at least an hour. Write down the same info.

This without heating the mold on a hot plate or in a torch-only heating it up on the pot edge.

This will give us a notion about the effect of alloy on mold “cold” ness.

I think you'll have trouble casting softer bullets, that the pot temp must be increased, that you'll see wrinkles, and that bullets per hour goes down.

 

I cast some RCBS 55SP bullets out of straight WW. I didnt warm the mold and it took 25 cycles to get nice bullets.This took about 8 minutes.Pot temp was 640 deg (all my old SAECO pot would go to)First 6 or 8 casts were a bit wrinkled on the nose and weighed .3g lighter than the final bullets.Bullets weighed 4 grains heavier and were .001 smaller than the same cast in lino.I had to cast super fast to keep temp up but it seemed production was going to be good if i didnt run into any “issues".

Nowa cranky mold---

I also tried to cast a few Lino bulllets with a Lee special run .22 “Bator” 2 cavity.I cannot get good production from this one.Bullets are either too cold and shiney,or when up to temp the GC shank gets overheated.I have to cool the sprue plate with a wet sponge to get even a decent casting rate.Oh yea. the sprue plate is goofed up and i cannot seem to get it to ride flat.It seems if the Lee plate is good youu are fine,if its bad you are not going to fix it.It's really not worth it anyway as the bullets does no better than 2MOA.

Get some molds from Lee to test so you can give then some suggestions,leave RCBS alone they work fine!!

George D.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Paul Pollard posted this 04 December 2007

Do you taper it in a bump die,or is your .222 throated a particular way?

I use a bump die to taper the bullets. The throat has been cut with the same reamer. It has a 45 minute per side taper or about .026” included taper per inch. The die just hits the nose, taking it to .218 and finishes the base at .2244 on the lead part and .225 on the gas check. My first RCBS did not cast well, hammering the handles to release the bullets. With correct (slower) pace, the bullets fall out of this one. I think the range on this mould weight is 49.7 for monotype and 57.5 for WW.

My Eagan MX3-22 (55 gr) fell out of the mould from the beginning. It stopped shooting well and I quit using it. It probably wasn't the fault of the mould.

Did you get LBT to taper the bullet in the mould? Didn't know he did that.

I have a test to run when the weather breaks a little. It may explain some of the unexplained fliers...then again, maybe it won't.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 December 2007

linoww wrote:

I also tried to cast a few Lino bulllets with a Lee special run .22 “Bator” 2 cavity.I cannot get good production from this one.Bullets are either too cold and shiney,or when up to temp the GC shank gets overheated.Hi .. I also got a Bator 22 ... or 2 or 3 or   will report on this if I get a break.

Hey, I got mine from MidSouth, with a credit card... I got a letter from MidSouth that their customer files were hacked ... so yesterday I got a credit card statement, with 4 purchases on it from the hackers ... called card service, cancelled card, etc. etc., but took 3 hours of phone time ...

spread the word if you are a MidSouth customer the last month or two ..

regards, ken campbell, iowa

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linoww posted this 04 December 2007

Paul Pollard wrote: Did you get LBT to taper the bullet in the mould? Didn't know he did that.

He didnt want to but did A nice job of it.I am happy with mine.I am sold on the design.

I have an Eagan T-Die for the 22's and have only used it a bit so I cant say for sure if it helped.My Eagan MX322 EX2 is 62g in lino and a superb bullet.i bought it from J Brennen on the forum and glad it didnt work out for him.I have one .200” 5 shot group with it at 100 out of a Savage 12 BVSS-S 22-250 hanging on the wall.I know its the smallest CB group i will ever shoot!

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 04 December 2007

Hi .. I also got a Bator 22 ... or 2 or 3 or   will report on this if I get a break.

 

I hope you can get it to shoot.I like the looks of it for a varmint bullet.it should splat the sage-rats better than my 225415 @ 2200fps.I just cant get it to shoot worth a darn.I have shot it in  two22-250's,222's and 223's.I  bought two as well knowing if it did well i probably would wear the first one out.

Good luck.

 

George.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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argie1891 posted this 05 December 2007

I agree with George  that 22 caliber bullets arent a problem. i have been casting for a 218 bee and have had no problem casting 225438 out of wheel weights with a small amount of tin. In my 2 cavity mould i dont think it is slower than my 30 caliber moulds. hard to handle those little buggers but casting is not a problem. the mould tempurature dosent seem to be a problem with my mould. groups are averaging about 2 inches  or one minute of sage rat from a navy arms baby rolling block.  argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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linoww posted this 05 December 2007

argie1891 wrote: I agree with George  that 22 caliber bullets arent a problem. i have been casting for a 218 bee and have had no problem casting 225438 out of wheel weights with a small amount of tin. In my 2 cavity mould i dont think it is slower than my 30 caliber moulds.  

I just cast a few 225438's in a 4 cavity last night out of W/W & a small amnt of lino and had the same luck as you did.I cheated and pre heated it in front of my shop heater for 10 minutes before casting.With lino i dont do this and it works well.I find this mold cooks them out as fast or faster than my SAECO #630 4 cavity 30 cal mold.

Two MOA is decent for a small rifle like the baby rolling block .I shoot them without GC tumble lubed in Lee Alox and with pistol powders at about 1200. They shoot into 3/4"-1.5” at 50 yds in a 22-250 Stevens 200 sporter.

 

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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argie1891 posted this 05 December 2007

I am glad you posted as i was afraid after all the talk about how hard it is to cast these little bullets no would believe me. i dont think many have really made the effort to try 22 cast bullets. Seems if it is printed enough times it becomes true. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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