223 REMINGTON

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joeb33050 posted this 14 March 2016

Savage M12 FV, 16” HV barrel, throated to allow bullets to be seated ~.1” further out than stock. 225646M and 225415 bullets, sized .225", GC, LLA. 9.5 IMR 4227 and 6.0 Titegroup CCI SR

I stop every 5 shots, brush case necks, deprime and clean primer pockets.

Both bullets with 9.5 IMR 4225, cases  refused the .222” Lee deprime rod. 6/Titegroup 225646M cases accepted  the rod 9 of 15 225415 cases refused the rod.

I think that I've decided that making any .22 CB shoot is not simple, it's sort of a trick. Aside from all the BS, I've not seen any 5 shot 5 group targets averaging < 1.5". Except mine, and I have a hard time repeating the feat.

I can make any 308 rifle average < 1.5", quickly, repeatedly, with CBs-if it will ever average <1.5"

Shooting cast bullets,  under .30 caliber accuracy is difficult to find, and the difficulty increases as caliber decreases. 28 is easier than 25 is easier than 24 is easier than 22. 

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45 2.1 posted this 14 March 2016

joeb33050 wrote: I think that I've decided that making any .22 CB shoot is not simple, it's sort of a trick. All depends on what you do and how you do it Joe. I will tell you that hard, under size, ill fitting bullets do only so well. There are a lot of examples of that all over the net. As an example, try one of yours in a fired case neck without any vestige of crimp and tell me how much slop there is........................................ that usually determines what it will do.

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Hamish posted this 14 March 2016

45 2.1 wrote: joeb33050 wrote: I think that I've decided that making any .22 CB shoot is not simple, it's sort of a trick. All depends on what you do and how you do it Joe. I will tell you that hard, under size, ill fitting bullets do only so well. There are a lot of examples of that all over the net. As an example, try one of yours in a fired case neck without any vestige of crimp and tell me how much slop there is........................................ that usually determines what it will do. Great post!

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John Alexander posted this 14 March 2016

I have just deleted two posts from this thread.

One appeared to be deliberately arrogant and insulting. The other called out the first but resorted to name calling.

Please keep it civil.

John

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gpidaho posted this 14 March 2016

TheAmishGolfballshooter: I see your post was taken down. Lots of us share in your assessment. Keep after it Joe. you'll find the right combination. Gp

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John Alexander posted this 15 March 2016

Joe wrote:

"I think that I've decided that making any .22 CB shoot is not simple, it's sort of a trick. Aside from all the BS, I've not seen any 5 shot 5 group targets averaging < 1.5". Except mine, and I have a hard time repeating the feat. I can make any 308 rifle average < 1.5", quickly, repeatedly, with CBs-if it will ever average <1.5"Shooting cast bullets,  under .30 caliber accuracy is difficult to find, and the difficulty increases as caliber decreases. 28 is easier than 25 is easier than 24 is easier than 22. “ 

Because I don't believe in supernatural stuff I think Joe is wrong about this. I'll admit that when CB shooters start reloading for most calibers under thirty they often get discouraged when comparing the results to their results with their 30 or 32 caliber rifles. I think there are several reasons for this but it is hard for me to believe it's because that there is something special about the 30 caliber other than being a good compromise.

Evidence that it can be done includes the 250s being shot with what they call the quarter bore by a few of our friends with the old fashioned rifles.  We have also seen some success by the very few shooters shooting 7mm, 25, 6mm, 6.5mm, and 22 in CBA competition over the last dozen years.  The overall numbers are low but there are only a few shooters that try.

One obvious reason that it seems easier to shoot CBs in 30/32 caliber is that this is where most of the development work has been done from at least when the US adopted the Krag.  There are just way more good bullet designs, equipment, and experience with what dimensions bullets and loads work best etc.

Second, 30 is a pretty good compromise between too much recoil and too much wind drift for a lot of situations including CBA competition and hunting the kind of game most of us do.

I think the special reason that accuracy with the 22 is especially elusive has to do with the common 14 inch twist which has led to almost all the available molds  being for short stubby bullets with lousy specific densities and thus more difficult to shoot.  Joe is shooting such bullets after not finding a longer bullet that fit his rifles.  The two bullets he is using are equivalent to 30 caliber bullets of 85 and 100 grains.  Such short bullets are hard to shoot and you don't see any shooting under 1.5” with short fat 30 caliber bullets either.

Until Ken finds the special secret of the even shorter 22 rimfire's success long bullets will be easier to shoot.  

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45 2.1 posted this 15 March 2016

"Because I don't believe in supernatural stuff I think Joe is wrong about this."

It boils down to this John..... Inclusions in lead alloy, whether dirt, grit or air, are the same size regardless of bullet diameter. That causes the phenomena Joe is carping about. To get better results, you either need to learn to cast better more uniform bullets OR weigh and check diameter with a mic on each one while sorting by weight/diameter. That got a friend with a Hornet down to 1/2 MOA consistently with a bullet that fit properly. The CBA isn't the only bunch looking for one hole accuracy. None of those guys want to compete either. The information is out there if you know what to look at or break out of following the leader.

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John Alexander posted this 15 March 2016

45 2.1, I certainly agree with you that learning to cast uniform bullets is a good thing. I also wouldn't disagree that following the leader is common.

I started out shooting CBs in 30 caliber but found it not one bit harder to get comparable accuracy when I switched to a 22 with a fast twist and a well designed 72 grain bullet.

I understand that not everybody wants to join the CBA and a lot of good CB shooters aren't interested in competition although I don't know what that has to do with whether the difficulty of shooting CBs well depends on caliber. 

You say “the information is out there if you know what to look for.” I would be grateful if you would help me find it. I am always interested in learning.  Could your friend with the Hornet be persuaded to give us some guidance either here on the forum (where several experienced shooters are shooting the 22) or in the Fouling Shot.  It would be a major contribution to our CB knowledge base.

John

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45 2.1 posted this 15 March 2016

John Alexander wrote: I started out shooting CBs in 30 caliber but found it not one bit harder to get comparable accuracy when I switched to a 22 with a fast twist and a well designed 72 grain bullet. Comparable accuracy........ that certainly leaves volumes to the imagination. Exactly what MOA range does that involve? If it is above 1.5 MOA, then I would certainly agree with you.

You have a PM.....................

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Brodie posted this 15 March 2016

45 2.1 wrote: "Because I don't believe in supernatural stuff I think Joe is wrong about this."

It boils down to this John..... Inclusions in lead alloy, whether dirt, grit or air, are the same size regardless of bullet diameter. That causes the phenomena Joe is carping about. To get better results, you either need to learn to cast better more uniform bullets OR weigh and check diameter with a mic on each one while sorting by weight/diameter. That got a friend with a Hornet down to 1/2 MOA consistently with a bullet that fit properly. The CBA isn't the only bunch looking for one hole accuracy. None of those guys want to compete either. The information is out there if you know what to look at or break out of following the leader.I agree with you completely.  When I started casting and finally got 1.25 to 1.75 inch groups with a 3006 I was very happy with myself.  I have not tried casting and shooting for a .224 caliber yet, but when I do I plan to weigh the bullet to within .1 gr. as a minimum for acceptable shooters.  a .224 bullet is 72% smaller than a .308 diameter slug.  Therefore, any inclusion, void, minor rounding of a band will destabilize the bullets flight to a much greater extent than the same defect in a .308 inch bullet.  (Sizes are used for comparison only, and probably won't reflect the diameter of your bore or bullets so don't bother to point it out.) 45 2.1 I think you have hit the nail on the head.  Our cast bullets are not swagged and forced into final shape, thus the minor defects are not removed.  Voids are not closed, and slightly rounded bands are not filled out by press forces.  We only size them.  The smaller it is the more uniform  and perfect it must be. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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John Alexander posted this 15 March 2016

45 2.1 wrote: Comparable accuracy........ that certainly leaves volumes to the imagination. Exactly what MOA range does that involve? If it is above 1.5 MOA, then I would certainly agree with you.

You have a PM..................... Sorry that I wasn't more specific. Starting in the early 1980s I have shot many aggregates in production and now hunting rifle class of 5 shot groups slightly below or slightly above 1 moa.  Many of these have been reported in match reports in TFS and in a bunch of my articles. These are actually somewhat better than I could do with my 30 caliber production class rifle. John

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45 2.1 posted this 15 March 2016

Old Coot wrot I have not tried casting and shooting for a .224 caliber yet, but when I do I plan to weigh the bullet to within .1 gr. as a minimum for acceptable shooters.  Sounds to be an acceptable plan. Try sorting them into 0.1 gr. groupings, then sort by as cast diameter with a mic. Discard all lower weights and shoot the upper groups separately. If the bullet is under size for the throat and bore it still won't help doing this.

Thanks for the answer John.............

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OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

I throated my 223 Remington VS using PTG's standard .224 throater (purchased from Midway). Dimensions of throater are .2245 diameter with a 1.30 degree per side throat angle. Leade would not accept a bullet that was sized .225". I had to size in smaller .224 sizer so that bullet would fit throat and not push bullet back into case when chambered.

I find it more difficult to shoot pistols.

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OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

This new NOE bullet looks interesting...it is a plain base bullet designed to be HTC coated. I know nothing about shooting plain base bullets in 223 Remington. Maybe cut throat a tad deeper?

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=84&products_id=799>http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/productinfo.php?cPath=84&productsid=799

...

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OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

Buy you a blank 224 caliber PTG die to size bore ride section of bullets. You can use the same throater to cut band area of sizer. Polish inside of die to match bore diameter to your liking. Use push rod stem from a Lee sizer to push bullet to align and make nose more round. Use a smaller .210” diameter rod to remove bullet from die. Or you could cut die in half and use nose punch to remove bullet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/314361/ptg-do-it-yourself-die-blank-22-caliber-pilot-hole-7-8-14-thread>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/314361/ptg-do-it-yourself-die-blank-22-caliber-pilot-hole-7-8-14-thread

Short bullets must be aligned perfectly to shoot well. Use lighter neck tension (turn necks) and check cartridge runout. The short bullet must be inline with snug slip fit in throat before firing.

...

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John Alexander posted this 16 March 2016

Brodie and  45 2.1 are on solid ground  that a given size defect say a .2 grain void will surely cause more trouble in a small bullet than in one weighing three times as much.  It also is an appealing theory that weigh sorting bullets to .1 grain OUGHT to improve accuracy.

The problem is when you go from the armchair speculating on theory to the range these theories fall apart.  There are no reported test results that show that bullets,22 or otherwise, weigh sorted to .1 grain shoot any better than bullets that vary five times that much nor that slightly rounded edges or other small defects significantly affect accuracy.

I don't weigh bullets nor look at them through a magnifying glass and they still seem to be competitive with 30 caliber shooters that do all of the above. There are a bunch of other things that affect accuracy far more than these favorite but useless procedures.

I think we should stop urging all this super picky fiddling around on shooters unless we can back them up with test results and so far we haven't been able to.

John 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 March 2016

i listen to everything and believe everybody ...

regarding minor imperfections .. it reminds me that in my stocker remmy 722 in 222 i could shoot mj ... 45,50, and 54 gr. bullets mixed and shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards ....

still wondering if that means anything ??

and don't forget those dang 22 rimfires ... an old box of federal champions still shoot 1.4 moa after dropping them in the dirt ... dang .... dang ... my best deer rifle cast groups barely can do that ... swaged, custom molds, weighed y miked bullets ...

” we will overcome ” ...pretty soon now...

ken

edit:  hey meanwhile 2 moa can plink oranges at 100 yards ... already not too shabby ...

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frnkeore posted this 16 March 2016

Since acuracy in these 22's seems so elusive, has anyone considered chambering a 22 CF to spec's like you would a rifle in the heavy or UNR class?

Since there is so much difference between 30 cal Production and 30 cal Heavy classes, it could well answer the question if there is a real problem with 22 Vs 30 cal accuracy.

The cost of such a build isn't much more, when you consider the overall cost of match shooting, the rifle could cost less than a years shooting and just think of the reduction that could be had with the frustration level.

If the answer is very important, I think someone would try it. If not, talk is talk.

Frank

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 March 2016

frank... as a ... premise...( * theory * is becoming... a dirty word here .. ) ...the system used in open class probably will work in hunter/production 22 classes ... but then it wouldn't be stock deer/varmint rifle class anymore... ...

i admit to feeling a little guilty in regarding the stock classes as ” testing rifles ” and the unrestricted classes as ” testing accuracy theories ” .... the open ...unrestricted ... classes are there to develop ways to modify stock class rifles to achieve better accuracy ... a little confusing ... could we hope the rifle mfg. follow those advancements and start producing more accurate cast-specific rifles ??

currently john a. is shooting one of the top production 22 cal cast rifles .... he competes in stock class so he can not greatly modify his barrel .... bullets and bedding he can optimize ...

meanwhile joeb. is coming along nicely with his savage 22-250 barrel(s) ... but most interesting to me is that his 223 barrels are problematic ... if he/we all can find the problem...golly even fix it ... what a great educational experience that would be !! will we see other 223 shooters sending in 40 shot groups ?? hope so .

can we take a production barrel and modify it to a krieger clone ?? with a fit chamber-throat and fit bullet ... hand-lapped barrel ??

we have the specs on paper ... dan hudson, tom gray, john ardito, and a dozen others have reported how to do it with larger calibers in the cba match results ... yes, it would be nice to see more open class 22/6mm projects ... the nearest one lately is mtn.'s 6mm high velocity tests ... more ! more !

it is pretty exciting these past months to see shooters posting their many-shot targets and details ... hopefully we entice more of the same ... including me, now that i can stand up for 2 hours a day ... in the near future ...

maybe we can finalize that ” six rules for cast accuracy ” card we can send out with membership decals ...

ken

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John Alexander posted this 16 March 2016

Frank makes a good point about building a 22 bore custom bench rifle to try to learn more.  I hope to do that in the near future to see what I can learn.    My own self imposed limits have been to get the best accuracy I could out of production rifles without rethroating and without swaging (bumping) bullets. Both of these things are allowed for production class by the way.  There is no particular virtue in my self imposed limits, that is just what I like to do.  I have proven to my own satisfaction that at least with the fast twist in some 223s and well fitted bullets of sectional density and designs similar to popular pro and hunter class bullet designs i.e. 311299 and 160 Sil, the 22 is competitive with the 30 caliber. I have been doing it since the mid 1980s and the results are in the match reports in TFS.  With the availability of NOE 22570 and 22780 SP others are starting to be competitive as well -- but only a few are trying. For much of that time the late Mike Mohler was making the case for the small bore much better than I and won the overall national CBA championship in 2007 with a 243. Mike apparently didn't get the word that the small bores were difficult to shoot.

I suspect the same can be done with the standard 14 inch twist as well, but i could never get below 1.5 MOA  for the average of several consecutive 5 shot groups. (about where Joe is) None of the fair number of 22 shooters who have shot in CBA competition over the last 40 years have done better than that either.  However, back in the late 1970s that was competitive with what the 30 calibers shooters were doing in production class. (That too is in old match reports in TFS) But I could only do it at 100 yards.  Those short blunt bullets were like trying to shoot a small brick to 200 if there was any wind.

These are the reasons I am skeptical that the 22s are inherently more difficult to shoot well.  We just haven't applied the same design principles and work to them that  we have to the 30 caliber.

John

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joeb33050 posted this 16 March 2016

If it's so easy, why can't I do it?

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frnkeore posted this 16 March 2016

Ken,I'm not advocating shooting a Heavy or UNR rifle in Production Class, just suggesting that someone build a Heavy/UNR 22 cal rifle to see what that accuracy could be had with that type rifle. If someone builts one, they could shoot it in matches or, not. I've never seen a Production rifle that could come close to a Heavy/UNR one in the top scores so, there is something that can be learned. Along those lines, I've built a breech seating 22rf that I will be shooting for at least, all this shooting year in ASSRA & ISSA matches and will report my progress. As yet, I've only had two range sessions, using one power. So far the results are promicing but, I have a long way to go. My best grouping has been a 1.18 ten shot group @ 100. Winning rifles in our 22rf class will reliably produce 1” 10 shot groups @ 100 and that's my goal. What I hope to show in my testing, regarding this discussion is that the accuracy problem, is getting the bullet into the rifling straight and w/o damaging it. My alloys will run between 30 & 40/1. Since I only finger lube the bullets, yesterday I shortened and modified my Lee so that I only have .003 deep grooves (.223 x .217 after sizing). It's now .554 long and weights 52.5 gr. Frank

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OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

Joe, Those groups are just awful...the gun should shoot more consistent than that (under 2” anyway). I suspect poor bullet fit, wrong lube, wrong powder etc. for your rifle.

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joeb33050 posted this 16 March 2016

OU812 wrote: Joe, Those groups are just awful...the gun should shoot more consistent than that (under 2” anyway). I suspect poor bullet fit, wrong lube, wrong powder etc. for your rifleHow about a damaged scope? Loose scope mounts? Bedding? Wrong primer? Bullet size incorrect? Should I weigh powder charges? Orient the case? Orient the bullet? Nose swage the bullet? Anneal gas checks? Weigh bullets? Mike bullets? Weight segregate primers? Shoot bullets in  the order cast? Use a harder alloy? Use a softer alloy? Heat treat bullets? Trim cases? Make longer cases? Weigh cases? Never use antimony? Always use antimony? Get a better bench rest? Better bench rest  bag/s? Clean the barrel between groups? Never clean the barrel? Buy a better scope? Buy different bullet mold/s? Use Lyman gas checks? Use a dacron filler? Use a cotton filler? Use a ldpe wad? Use a .062” ldpe wad? Use a .093” ldpe wad? Use a kapok wad? Use a milkweed fluff filler? Tilt the powder forward? Use no wad, ever? Tilt the powder backward? Hold the rifle firmly? Let the rifle free? recoil? Never squeeze the rear bag? Always squeeze the rear bag? Buy Lapua brass? Buy certified alloys from Rooter Metals? Always cast in iron molds? Always cast in aluminum molds? Never cast in any but brass molds? Smoke the mold? Use mold prep? Flux with a pine stick, alox, parraffin, mutton tallow? Marvelux? 

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frnkeore posted this 16 March 2016

Well.......... that would be a start :)

Frank

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OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

Joe, Today I cast a few 224 caliber bullets using just a single cavity in my lyman 225646 beagled mould. Nose diameter .219-.220, band diameter .225-.226, 12 bhn. weight 61 grains.  I plan on lubing the first two bands with LBT lube. I can send you a few if you like.

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gpidaho posted this 16 March 2016

The frustration builds Joe. I ordered up a new mould today a Noe 225-60 that's a copy of a Saeco mould. When it arrives I'll cast us up some. It can't shoot much worse than the others. Gp

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OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

I also cast a few of John's 80 grain bullets using softer 12 bhn alloy. I set pot temp @750 and “pressure cast” these. All bullets turned out near perfect and dropped from mould easily. A shorter version of this bullet is what us slower twist guys need. Nose diameter .219-.220, bands .227-.228, weight 78 grains using  Eagle magnum  birdshot alloy.

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onondaga posted this 16 March 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3>joeb33050

"If it's so easy, why can't I do it?" You repeat trying things that don't work for you instead of a logical elimination of things that don't work for you. You can do it well easily it once you break past repeating things that don't work for you and build upon what is better in what you do. I gave you simple and direct suggestions and they were deleted. That doesn't help you either. The crux of your improving may well find a turning point once you figure why my answers were deleted. Get past that and use deductive logic.

Knowledge is like mud. You walk through it and some of it is going to stick to your boots. Only logic will separate the useful from the useless mud. Progress means completely stopping the use of useless mud. Repetition and throwing statistics at useless mud does not turn useless mud into progress.

You have a big list of things that haven't helped with any progress. Stop dwelling on them. Vent on them instead of people that disagree with you. Walk on.

The 225646 has shown better results for you with less problems than other bullets you have tried. Put the other ones away and build upon the 225646. That one shoots well for me out of a stock NEF Ultra Varmint.

Have you ever ink checked rounds, bullets, for a sliding fit into the chamber? That is one of the things that universally works Joe. Don't make it personal Joe, just try that. Get your 225646 that size and the next target will be better than the last. Your 225646 should cast large enough that it will not easily chamber un-sized and with no gas check. If it doesn't, fix that first and get your bullets bigger so they don't easily chamber. Then size/check to an ink verified slide fit to your chamber. For me, this universally means custom honed bullet size/check dies and I work with the ones from Lee as they are easy to modify and check till I get ink verification on bullets.

Gary

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OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

Today I used my NOE nose sizer for the very first time. These noses were sized .2190 and bullets slipped very easily into muzzle of two of my Remingtons. I believe sizing to .220 would work better in these rifles.

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OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

Casting with linotype will help cast larger. I may cast a few of John's 80 grain bullets using linotype, size noses to .220 and push velocity to 2200-2500 fps. The faster velocity may stabilize this longer bullet in my 1-12 twist Remington.

The low recoiling 223 is a joy to target shoot with...I hope this works!

....

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45 2.1 posted this 17 March 2016

"If it's so easy, why can't I do it?"

Joe, it's rather easy when you already know what to do and how. When you don't it is not. Doing the same method over and over and expecting different results is Einstein's definition of insanity. I would try your bullets gas checked, lubed and unsized in an alloy suitable to the pressure level you are using.... that would be softer than Lyman #2 by a ways. Bullet fit and alloy choice are paramount here.... check yours!

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OU812 posted this 17 March 2016

Me and Joe are going to make these 80 grain bullets work in our 1-12, 1-14 rifles. Aren't we Joe?

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 17 March 2016

joeb's naughty barrel 223 chamber was throated such that a blued 646 nose is slightly engraved just over 0.3 ahead of the case ... throat is 0.2245 x 1/2 degree per side .... oal with nose lightly touching is ~ 2.275 .

the rifle shoots some other barrels well ...

this barrel stock was not good, and this first mod didn't get it under 2 moa ...

break time .... plan the next move ...

ken

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gpidaho posted this 17 March 2016

OUB12: JMHO Making an 80gr. bullet fly strait out of a 1-12+ barrel isn't likely. I've found my 22s to be more sensitive to bullet weight than any other factor. I have one 223 that will always put 52gr. jacketed bullets into under an inch, go lighter or heavier and the wheels fall off. I can change powder, primers, mix cases and change the COL with in reason and it still shots into 1/2” when I do my part. It just wants fed 52 gr. bullets. It's the last rifle I own other than my AR-15 that hasn't shot cast. That ends as soon as some new NOE moulds arrive. Gp

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Brodie posted this 17 March 2016

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=3>joeb33050

"If it's so easy, why can't I do it?" You repeat trying things that don't work for you instead of a logical elimination of things that don't work for you. You can do it well easily it once you break past repeating things that don't work for you and build upon what is better in what you do. I gave you simple and direct suggestions and they were deleted. That doesn't help you either. The crux of your improving may well find a turning point once you figure why my answers were deleted. Get past that and use deductive logic.

Knowledge is like mud. You walk through it and some of it is going to stick to your boots. Only logic will separate the useful from the useless mud. Progress means completely stopping the use of useless mud. Repetition and throwing statistics at useless mud does not turn useless mud into progress.

You have a big list of things that haven't helped with any progress. Stop dwelling on them. Vent on them instead of people that disagree with you. Walk on.

The 225646 has shown better results for you with less problems than other bullets you have tried. Put the other ones away and build upon the 225646. That one shoots well for me out of a stock NEF Ultra Varmint.

Have you ever ink checked rounds, bullets, for a sliding fit into the chamber? That is one of the things that universally works Joe. Don't make it personal Joe, just try that. Get your 225646 that size and the next target will be better than the last. Your 225646 should cast large enough that it will not easily chamber un-sized and with no gas check. If it doesn't, fix that first and get your bullets bigger so they don't easily chamber. Then size/check to an ink verified slide fit to your chamber. For me, this universally means custom honed bullet size/check dies and I work with the ones from Lee as they are easy to modify and check till I get ink verification on bullets.

Gary There is a tremendous amount to be learned from this one post.  Maybe we should make it permanent and  post it at the head of several sub-forums for those who are having trouble.

This post is also a good guide to all who think that being told what they are doing wrong- -after they asked WHY???--and then got mad at the poster for telling them.  It ain't personal we are just trying to help you get out of the failure cycle you (generic you) have managed to get into. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 March 2016

we may be dealing with the supernatural here ... joeb has 2 barrels in 22-250 that average under 2 moa ... among the best that have submitted 40 or 200 shot targets here recently ...

mounted on the same savage actions ... his 223 barrels are not nearly as good ... and on one, which i ” improved ” with a longer and gentler throat ... it has rebelled and is shooting worster ...

geepers... have we annoyed some gatekeeper somewhere somehow ? my plan is to refill my shaker with fresh sea salt and ladder-tie my tennis shoes .... and try again ...

an educational opportunity ...

ken

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mtngun posted this 19 March 2016

John Alexander wrote:  We have also seen some success by the very few shooters shooting 7mm, 25, 6mm, 6.5mm, and 22 in CBA competition over the last dozen years. 6mm has treated me decently and is becoming my favorite target caliber.   It may be a few more months before I can lose my 22cf virginity so I can't speak to that caliber yet.  :D

I think the special reason that accuracy with the 22 is especially elusive has to do with the common 14 inch twist which has led to almost all the available molds being for short stubby bullets with lousy specific densities and thus more difficult to shoot.Short stubby 55-65 grain bullets have done well for me in 6mm.   Competitor Paul Pollard for a while campaigned with a none-too-long 65 grainer in his 6ppc.     My rule of thumb is that the minimum length of a spitzer should be 2.3 - 2.6 times groove diameter.  I.e. the 60 gr. 6mm I was shooting today is 2.6 times diameter.

you don't see any shooting under 1.5” with short fat 30 caliber bullets either.Except for the gentleman who won nationals with a 107 gr. 30 BR. B)

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mtngun posted this 19 March 2016

The http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/223%20Remington.pdf>SAAMI 223 throat looks decent, so I'm not seeing a problem there.

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John Alexander posted this 19 March 2016

Mtngun, I don't disagree with you that there are examples of short stubby cast bullets shooting well. I had such a disclaimer in Post #20.  All the examples I know of however are in custom chambers and swaging in a die cut with the same or similar reamer.  The elephant in the room of course is the 22 rimfire which can be made to shoot the equal of our best cast bullets and has a sectional density comparable to a 75 grain 30 caliber bullet.  Ken is going to figure that out for us.

In spite of it being possible, I think all the CBA 30 caliber shooters now competing shoot bullets of over 160 grains and the average is about 200 grains.  That includes the plain base shooters who breech seat and HL who is now shooting 190 and 185 grain bullets instead of his 107 grainers. 

I haven't said that it  was impossible to shoot short bullets well, but I will stick to my contention that all else equal, and especially for factory chambers and throats, longer cast bullets are easier to shoot well than short cast bullets.  

John

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OU812 posted this 19 March 2016

I trimmed a little off the 80 grain bullet to check weight. The bullet on right weighs 65 grains. Maybe this one will shoot in our slow twist barrels?

I can make a few of these bullets using my drill press. If it works I can mill the bullet mould shorter. Bullet will need to be supported snug (six or five lands maybe) and inline to shoot well. Some factory barrels have off center chambers, so full length resizing and setting the shoulder back about .003  will help center the bullet in throat without binding.

Little bullets require LOTS of little details.

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gpidaho posted this 19 March 2016

OUB12: Let me know how this works for you. I've been shortening a few 80s with my Harbor Freight Mini chop saw. Using a jig it works pretty well but the harder alloys will take out a blade pretty quick. Haven't taken any to the range yet. Gp

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OU812 posted this 19 March 2016

Most drill presses have an adjustable stop that will help with setup. A fine hobby saw works well to cut while spinning bullet. Blade is attached to block of mdf to cut all bullets equal length. Then all bullets are sanded at base and weighed.

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OU812 posted this 19 March 2016

nOtHiNg cOnStRuCtIVe, sAmE oLd ccRaP, wRiTinG skIlLs bEtTeR ThAn sHOOtINg sKIlS

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OU812 posted this 19 March 2016

I cut 20 bullets, weight 61.5 grains, hardly any grease groove.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 March 2016

;;; heh, those rascally rimfires are a bit wind-challenged ... we used three windflags and sometimes one more on the bench ... at just 50 yards ... lots of fun ... but now at 40 cents per shot ... not so much ...

i have thought that maybe real short bullets have one advantage ::: you can't deform them any worse than the round ball they already are ... ?g? ..

ken

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gpidaho posted this 19 March 2016

OUB12: Powder coat those up and see how they fly. Gp

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OU812 posted this 20 March 2016

I think Hi-Tek coating is the new craze. It is much different than powder coating. Dip then bake.

http://www.bayoubullets.net/hi-tek-heat-set-super-coat-bullet-coating-call-donnie-at-225-324-4501/>http://www.bayoubullets.net/hi-tek-heat-set-super-coat-bullet-coating-call-donnie-at-225-324-4501/   ...

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OU812 posted this 20 March 2016

I tried powder coating using the shake and bake method, but unable to get even coat before baking. So I removed powder coat and will order the Hi-Tek coating. Notice bullets were not damaged from tumbling (12 bhn). I am sure these bullets will shoot in a new barrel with a tighter throat...hopefully they will shoot in my Remington with worn factory throat.

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OU812 posted this 20 March 2016

Rifle is a Remington 700 VS 223 Remington (vintage 1996), 20” barrel, 1-12 twist (PTG AR15 clip mod). When gun was new it would shoot moly coated 55 grain ballistic tips into quarter inch groups easily. I would set up empty 223 hulls 100 yards away and put bullet holes thru them.

I will start a new tread after I receive Hi-Tek coating. Thus Spake the Nightspirit....

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OU812 posted this 21 March 2016

Here is Hi-Tec's powder version that you mix with solvent. I will try spraying bullets using a Hobby paint sprayer with high paint flow tip.

Ordered last night and received tracking number this morning.

http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/hi-tek-supercoat-powder-7-oz-container/

....

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joeb33050 posted this 21 March 2016

3/21/16

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OU812 posted this 21 March 2016

Joe, Size bullets nose first in Lee sizer or RCBS. Try some different lube. I use LBT soft applied with the RCBS Lube Sizer. Use an oversize sizing die so that machine will not distort bullet. Lube just the bottom one or two grooves.

Seat the bullet long, check concentricity and jam bullet into rifling before firing.

Try a different bullet...good choices are slim. I use a 62gr LBT bullet designed to be used with a deeper cut longer freebore (.400 length). Bullet fits snug in free bore.

I will be experimenting with John's 80 grain bullet by shortening it to 61 grains. This seems to be a good bullet choice for a factory throat and slower 1-12, 1-14 twist barrel..

...

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OU812 posted this 21 March 2016

Today I made some 70 grain plain base bullets.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 March 2016

joeb .... i hate to use the word ” interesting ” for these groups, but it looks as if even when there is something wrong going on...... the blue dot loads shoot even worse than the 4227 loads ...

don't give up .... however a temporary retreat might be in order ... heh ...

ken

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OU812 posted this 21 March 2016

I like Tite Group, Tin Star, and AO. Blue Dot seems to burn dirtier. Alliant 2400 does verygood, but is position sensitive...gun must be tilted up before firing to reduce velocity spread.

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joeb33050 posted this 22 March 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: joeb .... i hate to use the word ” interesting ” for these groups, but it looks as if even when there is something wrong going on...... the blue dot loads shoot even worse than the 4227 loads ...

don't give up .... however a temporary retreat might be in order ... heh ...

ken I've had both rifles apart, set headspace, inspected/cleaned/lubed. The scopes seem fine, t36 Weavers. Barrels float free. Bullets/cases/primers/powder checked to the point of insanity. I get rifles shooting, then send them down the road.  I've had several rifles that I couldn't get to shoot, but never had a rifle or barrel that was this bad and variable.

I loaded 22-250 same bullets, will shoot ?Wed.? with a $45 22” light sporter barrel unfired by me. That should give a hint.

All I can think of now is swapping scopes, maybe one is bad.

If that doesn't work, I'd like to get the 26” HV 223 bbl chambered to 22-250 and cut to ?16.5".  ?18"? Stiff!

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OU812 posted this 22 March 2016

Jam this bullet into rifling. Seat bullet long and feed one at a time.  Quit using that alox crap.

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joeb33050 posted this 23 March 2016

I've been trying to get the 223 26” heavy varmint barrel to shoot for 3 years, Ken throated it for my recently. Results were very poor, everything was recorded and analyzed and sorted to death. The only thing I could think of was the Weaver T36, so I swapped scopes and tried 225415 and 225646M with 7.5/Blue Dot today. After 12 shots to warm up, the 415 shot an 8” group, and the 646M shot 3 into 2.5” with the other 2 off the paper and on the way to the moon.

At the range I took the scope off the 12FV 223 and put it on the M10 with $45 22-250 22” sporter barrel I'd never shot before. 225646M, unsized. gc. lla 7.0 Titegroup 2.275, 3.25, 1.75, .95 avg 2.05"

225646M “fair” bullets-best of the rejects, gc, unsized, lyman moly 2.3, 2.15, 3.05, 1.75 avg 2.36"

The 225646M requires a greenhill; twist of 11", twist is 12", the bullets are all tipping, just a bit.

My best powder in the Striker and the other 22” barrel is SR4756.

225646M gc, unsized, lla, 8.0 SR4756 1.0, 1.95, 1.05, 1.25 avg 1.31"

About the 223: It isn't the scope I don't know why, but it won't shoot accurately. And I don't care why, at least not enough to waste any more time and lead. 22-250 in the Striker and with 2 22” sporter barrels screwed on actions shoots very well, accurately, and accuracy is laughingly easy to find.

I have 3 223 barrels and have had at least 3 more, and have never found REPEATABLE accuracy, <2” averages. Some have shot small groups, some have shot small averages, none can do it repeatedly. Blind squirrel.

In the search for accuracy there is NEVER a minor tweak that turns a very poor accuracy gun into a very good accuracy gun. I should have tried some well tested and reliable loads and quit on the 26” barrel weeks ago.

The fact that 22-250 is more accurate than 223 in MANY tests and barrels suggests that bigger-not smaller- cases are more accurate, at least for 22s.

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frnkeore posted this 23 March 2016

Have you ever tried jacketed bullets in the 223?

It would be interesting to know if it can shoot at all.

Frank

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 23 March 2016

joeb::

take a deep breath .

.....to heck with that... grab the oxygen tank ...

geeeeze ....

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 23 March 2016

frnkeore wrote: Have you ever tried jacketed bullets in the 223?

It would be interesting to know if it can shoot at all.

FrankFIRST SHOT IT 1/30/13 NO ACCURACY WITH CAST 4/20/14 JACKETED 1.025", 1.125" NO ACCURACY WITH CAST 1/14/15 JACKETED .6, 1.0, .9, .7, 1.05  AVG. .85" NO ACCURACY WITH CAST NO JACKETED AFTER THAT

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OU812 posted this 23 March 2016

Have you tried slowing the bullet down to 1400-1600 fps. The 61 grain bullet should stabilize in a 1/12 twist at these slower velocities. Weighed (not thrown)charges of Tite Group will work. Check velocity with chroni.

Alox lube in the 223 has never worked for me.

...

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joeb33050 posted this 26 March 2016

Note the ALOX lube, same 2 bullets, unsized, gc, LLA

The 2 barrels I can't make shoot cbs reliably/accurately, 223 and 22-250, are both heavy varmint 26” barrels-John A. has found that the 22-250 barrel is loose in the middle. Is there something about rifling heavy barrels?

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mtngun posted this 26 March 2016

Thanks for sharing the target, Joe.

You have given that barrel a fair chance to prove itself with conventional cast bullets.

Speaking as someone who, back in the day, spent a lot of time and money trying to get cast bullets to shoot satisfactorily in poorly made guns,  I now recommend spending money on quality guns, instead.  :D    Some guns are cast-friendly, others are not.   That is a fact.   Keep the good ones and trade off the bad ones.

Though if the  problem caused by a rough barrel, coated bullets may be worth a try, as OU812 hinted.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 March 2016

slightly off topic, but some of the local coyote hunters have those STEVENS 200 .... the are a very worthy rifle .... tho, like us cast bullet shooters, they get no respect ...

ken

oh, i still think production classes are just testing rifles ... or barrels ... but i do think we should continue with joeb's penance ... we learn nothing from great barrels and perfect bullets ... boring ...

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joeb33050 posted this 03 April 2016

I cut the heavy 26” 223 heavy barrel to 17", filed tyhe end sorta flat and crowned it with a cricket and valve gringing compound on a round head brass screw. This to see if the variable diameter barrel would shoot with the swamped muzzle cut off.

225646M got my hopes up, 225414 dashed those hopes.

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mtngun posted this 04 April 2016

Wow, amazing there is so much difference in performance between the two 55 gr. bullet designs. :shock:

Any idea why, Joe?

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joeb33050 posted this 04 April 2016

mtngun wrote: Wow, amazing there is so much difference in performance between the two 55 gr. bullet designs. :shock:

Any idea why, Joe? THE ONLY THING I KNOW OF THAT MAKES A RIFLE SHOOT WILDLY-ALL OF A SUDDEN-IS LEADING. There's no lead in the barrel. I'm getting out of the mystery-solving business, back into the CB accuracy seeking game. Maybe Ken wants this barrel, I'll take it off today-I'm done with it.

joe b.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 April 2016

joeb: thanks for chasing this project beyond the city limits of Funsville ...

it shows that there are many birds in the air when it comes to accuracy with cast bullets ...

it is tempting to draw a few conclusions from your tests ..especially that better barrels shoot better .... but i will refrain ....

but i must say i am impressed with your success in putting together quality ammunition that is consistent enough to show the differences in the other factors ...

yep, i would like the stub barrel ... unless you think you might try the tight length of it ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 04 April 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: joeb: thanks for chasing this project beyond the city limits of Funsville ...

it shows that there are many birds in the air when it comes to accuracy with cast bullets ...

it is tempting to draw a few conclusions from your tests ..especially that better barrels shoot better .... but i will refrain ....

but i must say i am impressed with your success in putting together quality ammunition that is consistent enough to show the differences in the other factors ...

yep, i would like the stub barrel ... unless you think you might try the tight length of it ...

kenKen; the barrel is off, I'll send it in the next day or two. I put on a new-to-me Stevens 200 22” light sporter, and loaded with the same bullets and load as yesterday. I'll shoot tomorrow, weather allowing. joe b.

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