223 REMINGTON

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Last Post 04 April 2016

CBA Member

joeb33050 posted this 14 March 2016

Savage M12 FV, 16” HV barrel, throated to allow bullets to be seated ~.1” further out than stock. 225646M and 225415 bullets, sized .225", GC, LLA. 9.5 IMR 4227 and 6.0 Titegroup CCI SR

I stop every 5 shots, brush case necks, deprime and clean primer pockets.

Both bullets with 9.5 IMR 4225, cases refused the .222” Lee deprime rod. 6/Titegroup 225646M cases accepted the rod 9 of 15 225415 cases refused the rod.

I think that I've decided that making any .22 CB shoot is not simple, it's sort of a trick. Aside from all the BS, I've not seen any 5 shot 5 group targets averaging < 1.5". Except mine, and I have a hard time repeating the feat.

I can make any 308 rifle average < 1.5", quickly, repeatedly, with CBs-if it will ever average <1.5"

Shooting cast bullets, under .30 caliber accuracy is difficult to find, and the difficulty increases as caliber decreases. 28 is easier than 25 is easier than 24 is easier than 22.

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CBA Member

45 2.1 posted this 14 March 2016

joeb33050 wrote: I think that I've decided that making any .22 CB shoot is not simple, it's sort of a trick. All depends on what you do and how you do it Joe. I will tell you that hard, under size, ill fitting bullets do only so well. There are a lot of examples of that all over the net. As an example, try one of yours in a fired case neck without any vestige of crimp and tell me how much slop there is........................................ that usually determines what it will do.

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Standard Member

Hamish posted this 14 March 2016

45 2.1 wrote: joeb33050 wrote: I think that I've decided that making any .22 CB shoot is not simple, it's sort of a trick. All depends on what you do and how you do it Joe. I will tell you that hard, under size, ill fitting bullets do only so well. There are a lot of examples of that all over the net. As an example, try one of yours in a fired case neck without any vestige of crimp and tell me how much slop there is........................................ that usually determines what it will do. Great post!

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 14 March 2016

I have just deleted two posts from this thread.

One appeared to be deliberately arrogant and insulting. The other called out the first but resorted to name calling.

Please keep it civil.

John

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CBA Member

gpidaho posted this 14 March 2016

TheAmishGolfballshooter: I see your post was taken down. Lots of us share in your assessment. Keep after it Joe. you'll find the right combination. Gp

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 15 March 2016

Joe wrote:

"I think that I've decided that making any .22 CB shoot is not simple, it's sort of a trick. Aside from all the BS, I've not seen any 5 shot 5 group targets averaging < 1.5". Except mine, and I have a hard time repeating the feat. I can make any 308 rifle average < 1.5", quickly, repeatedly, with CBs-if it will ever average <1.5"Shooting cast bullets, under .30 caliber accuracy is difficult to find, and the difficulty increases as caliber decreases. 28 is easier than 25 is easier than 24 is easier than 22. “

Because I don't believe in supernatural stuff I think Joe is wrong about this. I'll admit that when CB shooters start reloading for most calibers under thirty they often get discouraged when comparing the results to their results with their 30 or 32 caliber rifles. I think there are several reasons for this but it is hard for me to believe it's because that there is something special about the 30 caliber other than being a good compromise.

Evidence that it can be done includes the 250s being shot with what they call the quarter bore by a few of our friends with the old fashioned rifles. We have also seen some success by the very few shooters shooting 7mm, 25, 6mm, 6.5mm, and 22 in CBA competition over the last dozen years. The overall numbers are low but there are only a few shooters that try.

One obvious reason that it seems easier to shoot CBs in 30/32 caliber is that this is where most of the development work has been done from at least when the US adopted the Krag. There are just way more good bullet designs, equipment, and experience with what dimensions bullets and loads work best etc.

Second, 30 is a pretty good compromise between too much recoil and too much wind drift for a lot of situations including CBA competition and hunting the kind of game most of us do.

I think the special reason that accuracy with the 22 is especially elusive has to do with the common 14 inch twist which has led to almost all the available molds being for short stubby bullets with lousy specific densities and thus more difficult to shoot. Joe is shooting such bullets after not finding a longer bullet that fit his rifles. The two bullets he is using are equivalent to 30 caliber bullets of 85 and 100 grains. Such short bullets are hard to shoot and you don't see any shooting under 1.5” with short fat 30 caliber bullets either.

Until Ken finds the special secret of the even shorter 22 rimfire's success long bullets will be easier to shoot.

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CBA Member

45 2.1 posted this 15 March 2016

"Because I don't believe in supernatural stuff I think Joe is wrong about this."

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 15 March 2016

45 2.1, I certainly agree with you that learning to cast uniform bullets is a good thing. I also wouldn't disagree that following the leader is common.

I started out shooting CBs in 30 caliber but found it not one bit harder to get comparable accuracy when I switched to a 22 with a fast twist and a well designed 72 grain bullet.

I understand that not everybody wants to join the CBA and a lot of good CB shooters aren't interested in competition although I don't know what that has to do with whether the difficulty of shooting CBs well depends on caliber.

You say “the information is out there if you know what to look for.” I would be grateful if you would help me find it. I am always interested in learning. Could your friend with the Hornet be persuaded to give us some guidance either here on the forum (where several experienced shooters are shooting the 22) or in the Fouling Shot. It would be a major contribution to our CB knowledge base.

John

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CBA Member

45 2.1 posted this 15 March 2016

John Alexander wrote: I started out shooting CBs in 30 caliber but found it not one bit harder to get comparable accuracy when I switched to a 22 with a fast twist and a well designed 72 grain bullet. Comparable accuracy........ that certainly leaves volumes to the imagination. Exactly what MOA range does that involve? If it is above 1.5 MOA, then I would certainly agree with you.

You have a PM.....................

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CBA Member

Brodie posted this 15 March 2016

45 2.1 wrote: "Because I don't believe in supernatural stuff I think Joe is wrong about this."

It boils down to this John..... Inclusions in lead alloy, whether dirt, grit or air, are the same size regardless of bullet diameter. That causes the phenomena Joe is carping about. To get better results, you either need to learn to cast better more uniform bullets OR weigh and check diameter with a mic on each one while sorting by weight/diameter. That got a friend with a Hornet down to 1/2 MOA consistently with a bullet that fit properly. The CBA isn't the only bunch looking for one hole accuracy. None of those guys want to compete either. The information is out there if you know what to look at or break out of following the leader.I agree with you completely. When I started casting and finally got 1.25 to 1.75 inch groups with a 3006 I was very happy with myself. I have not tried casting and shooting for a .224 caliber yet, but when I do I plan to weigh the bullet to within .1 gr. as a minimum for acceptable shooters. a .224 bullet is 72% smaller than a .308 diameter slug. Therefore, any inclusion, void, minor rounding of a band will destabilize the bullets flight to a much greater extent than the same defect in a .308 inch bullet. (Sizes are used for comparison only, and probably won't reflect the diameter of your bore or bullets so don't bother to point it out.) 45 2.1 I think you have hit the nail on the head. Our cast bullets are not swagged and forced into final shape, thus the minor defects are not removed. Voids are not closed, and slightly rounded bands are not filled out by press forces. We only size them. The smaller it is the more uniform and perfect it must be. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 15 March 2016

45 2.1 wrote: Comparable accuracy........ that certainly leaves volumes to the imagination. Exactly what MOA range does that involve? If it is above 1.5 MOA, then I would certainly agree with you.

You have a PM..................... Sorry that I wasn't more specific. Starting in the early 1980s I have shot many aggregates in production and now hunting rifle class of 5 shot groups slightly below or slightly above 1 moa. Many of these have been reported in match reports in TFS and in a bunch of my articles. These are actually somewhat better than I could do with my 30 caliber production class rifle. John

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CBA Member

45 2.1 posted this 15 March 2016

Old Coot wrot I have not tried casting and shooting for a .224 caliber yet, but when I do I plan to weigh the bullet to within .1 gr. as a minimum for acceptable shooters. Sounds to be an acceptable plan. Try sorting them into 0.1 gr. groupings, then sort by as cast diameter with a mic. Discard all lower weights and shoot the upper groups separately. If the bullet is under size for the throat and bore it still won't help doing this.

Thanks for the answer John.............

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

I throated my 223 Remington VS using PTG's standard .224 throater (purchased from Midway). Dimensions of throater are .2245 diameter with a 1.30 degree per side throat angle. Leade would not accept a bullet that was sized .225". I had to size in smaller .224 sizer so that bullet would fit throat and not push bullet back into case when chambered.

I find it more difficult to shoot pistols.

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

This new NOE bullet looks interesting...it is a plain base bullet designed to be HTC coated. I know nothing about shooting plain base bullets in 223 Remington. Maybe cut throat a tad deeper?

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=84&products_id=799>http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/productinfo.php?cPath=84&productsid=799

...

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 16 March 2016

Buy you a blank 224 caliber PTG die to size bore ride section of bullets. You can use the same throater to cut band area of sizer. Polish inside of die to match bore diameter to your liking. Use push rod stem from a Lee sizer to push bullet to align and make nose more round. Use a smaller .210” diameter rod to remove bullet from die. Or you could cut die in half and use nose punch to remove bullet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/314361/ptg-do-it-yourself-die-blank-22-caliber-pilot-hole-7-8-14-thread>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/314361/ptg-do-it-yourself-die-blank-22-caliber-pilot-hole-7-8-14-thread

Short bullets must be aligned perfectly to shoot well. Use lighter neck tension (turn necks) and check cartridge runout. The short bullet must be inline with snug slip fit in throat before firing.

...

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 16 March 2016

Brodie and 45 2.1 are on solid ground that a given size defect say a .2 grain void will surely cause more trouble in a small bullet than in one weighing three times as much. It also is an appealing theory that weigh sorting bullets to .1 grain OUGHT to improve accuracy.

The problem is when you go from the armchair speculating on theory to the range these theories fall apart. There are no reported test results that show that bullets,22 or otherwise, weigh sorted to .1 grain shoot any better than bullets that vary five times that much nor that slightly rounded edges or other small defects significantly affect accuracy.

I don't weigh bullets nor look at them through a magnifying glass and they still seem to be competitive with 30 caliber shooters that do all of the above. There are a bunch of other things that affect accuracy far more than these favorite but useless procedures.

I think we should stop urging all this super picky fiddling around on shooters unless we can back them up with test results and so far we haven't been able to.

John

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CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 March 2016

i listen to everything and believe everybody ...

regarding minor imperfections .. it reminds me that in my stocker remmy 722 in 222 i could shoot mj ... 45,50, and 54 gr. bullets mixed and shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards ....

still wondering if that means anything ??

and don't forget those dang 22 rimfires ... an old box of federal champions still shoot 1.4 moa after dropping them in the dirt ... dang .... dang ... my best deer rifle cast groups barely can do that ... swaged, custom molds, weighed y miked bullets ...

” we will overcome ” ...pretty soon now...

ken

edit: hey meanwhile 2 moa can plink oranges at 100 yards ... already not too shabby ...

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CBA Member

frnkeore posted this 16 March 2016

Since acuracy in these 22's seems so elusive, has anyone considered chambering a 22 CF to spec's like you would a rifle in the heavy or UNR class?

Since there is so much difference between 30 cal Production and 30 cal Heavy classes, it could well answer the question if there is a real problem with 22 Vs 30 cal accuracy.

The cost of such a build isn't much more, when you consider the overall cost of match shooting, the rifle could cost less than a years shooting and just think of the reduction that could be had with the frustration level.

If the answer is very important, I think someone would try it. If not, talk is talk.

Frank

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CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 March 2016

frank... as a ... premise...( * theory * is becoming... a dirty word here .. ) ...the system used in open class probably will work in hunter/production 22 classes ... but then it wouldn't be stock deer/varmint rifle class anymore... ...

i admit to feeling a little guilty in regarding the stock classes as ” testing rifles ” and the unrestricted classes as ” testing accuracy theories ” .... the open ...unrestricted ... classes are there to develop ways to modify stock class rifles to achieve better accuracy ... a little confusing ... could we hope the rifle mfg. follow those advancements and start producing more accurate cast-specific rifles ??

currently john a. is shooting one of the top production 22 cal cast rifles .... he competes in stock class so he can not greatly modify his barrel .... bullets and bedding he can optimize ...

meanwhile joeb. is coming along nicely with his savage 22-250 barrel(s) ... but most interesting to me is that his 223 barrels are problematic ... if he/we all can find the problem...golly even fix it ... what a great educational experience that would be !! will we see other 223 shooters sending in 40 shot groups ?? hope so .

can we take a production barrel and modify it to a krieger clone ?? with a fit chamber-throat and fit bullet ... hand-lapped barrel ??

we have the specs on paper ... dan hudson, tom gray, john ardito, and a dozen others have reported how to do it with larger calibers in the cba match results ... yes, it would be nice to see more open class 22/6mm projects ... the nearest one lately is mtn.'s 6mm high velocity tests ... more ! more !

it is pretty exciting these past months to see shooters posting their many-shot targets and details ... hopefully we entice more of the same ... including me, now that i can stand up for 2 hours a day ... in the near future ...

maybe we can finalize that ” six rules for cast accuracy ” card we can send out with membership decals ...

ken

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 16 March 2016

Frank makes a good point about building a 22 bore custom bench rifle to try to learn more. I hope to do that in the near future to see what I can learn. My own self imposed limits have been to get the best accuracy I could out of production rifles without rethroating and without swaging (bumping) bullets. Both of these things are allowed for production class by the way. There is no particular virtue in my self imposed limits, that is just what I like to do. I have proven to my own satisfaction that at least with the fast twist in some 223s and well fitted bullets of sectional density and designs similar to popular pro and hunter class bullet designs i.e. 311299 and 160 Sil, the 22 is competitive with the 30 caliber. I have been doing it since the mid 1980s and the results are in the match reports in TFS. With the availability of NOE 22570 and 22780 SP others are starting to be competitive as well -- but only a few are trying. For much of that time the late Mike Mohler was making the case for the small bore much better than I and won the overall national CBA championship in 2007 with a 243. Mike apparently didn't get the word that the small bores were difficult to shoot.

I suspect the same can be done with the standard 14 inch twist as well, but i could never get below 1.5 MOA for the average of several consecutive 5 shot groups. (about where Joe is) None of the fair number of 22 shooters who have shot in CBA competition over the last 40 years have done better than that either. However, back in the late 1970s that was competitive with what the 30 calibers shooters were doing in production class. (That too is in old match reports in TFS) But I could only do it at 100 yards. Those short blunt bullets were like trying to shoot a small brick to 200 if there was any wind.

These are the reasons I am skeptical that the 22s are inherently more difficult to shoot well. We just haven't applied the same design principles and work to them that we have to the 30 caliber.

John