22-250

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  • Last Post 16 March 2016
joeb33050 posted this 08 January 2016

I got the $50 delivered Savage 22-250 barrel, took out a lot of copper, got it clean and screwed it on to a Savage M10. This is a 22” sporter barrel, kind of wispy.   On 1/6/16 I shot it with ammunition I'd loaded for the Striker. 225646M, unsized, GC, LLA, Titegroup 5 five shot 100 yard groups, got scope adjusted 6.0 grains avg 1.87" 7.0 grains avg 2.57"   1/8/16 225646M, unsized, GC, LLA, Titegroup 5 five shot 100 yard groups Set up targets l-r sighter, 5.7 gr., 6.0 gr. 6.3 gr. I shot 5 sighters to get going, went to the far right target, 6.3 gr, and shot a 3.8” group.   Alternated targets, 6.3, 6.0, 5.7, 6.3”¦back and forth   5.7 gr avg 1.385" 6.0 gr avg 1.44" 6.3 gr avg 1.89", without the 3.8” group, 1.413"   This is the best day I've had with a 22 cf in over 3 years of working on it.

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joeb33050 posted this 08 January 2016

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joeb33050 posted this 08 January 2016

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 January 2016

looks like you are beating the 2 moa threshold, joeb ... sure wish we knew what happened in that 4 inch group ...

and real happy that you got a 22-250 working better than average .... especially with a small pinch of titegroup ....

now you have something reliable enough to test some common sense ideas with ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 09 January 2016

So, unless it falls apart, it looks like this old cheap barrel will shoot < 2", maybe < 1.5".

What do I change to get it shooting better?

Bullets from a 2 cavity mold, visually inspected under 3X magnification, not weighed. GC crimped on in 450, LLA with mineral spirits. Hornady brass, chamfered in, not trimmed, not neck turned, no primer pocket uniforming, no flash hole deburred, not weighed. After firing, deprimed, inside neck wiped with Q tip and Marvel Mystery Oil, FL sized in RCBS dies, Lyman M died so GC goes in case mouth, inside neck wiped clean with Q tip. Powder dropped with Lyman 55 after setting with a scale, powder checked with flashlight. Bullets seated with RCBS die, each bullet wiped with LLA/mineral spirits = thinned, with fingers. Weaver T36, Hoppes $30 rest, ~1970,  with sandbag, good rear sandbag.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 January 2016

i wonder if we have enough data to say that some barrels shoot better than others ??

if so, me personally i would hand lead lap your barrel in an effort to make it even better .

i always lead lapped my shilen y douglas match grade barrels and the never got worse ...which is important ( g ) . some barrels cut the groups in half . maybe they would have eventually shot better anyway ....

pretty scary stuff ... and remember i collect barrels, so that might account for my having no fear of you putting grit in yours ( g ) .

slightly more radical, although i would do it, if lead lapping is too much hassle ( takes 2 hours ) you could shoot 6 only firelaps with a mj bullet with 280 grit ground in .


since you asked ... you might consider rethroating to about 1/2 degree or so ....makes common sense, right ??? what could go wrong ???


just trying to help ...honest ...

ken

edit :  oh, how is the thread fit in your savage ....before you tighten the nut ??  also i forgot ...is your savage really well bedded...as in pillar bedded ???  just checking ...

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joeb33050 posted this 09 January 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: i wonder if we have enough data to say that some barrels shoot better than others ??

if so, me personally i would hand lead lap your barrel in an effort to make it even better .

i always lead lapped my shilen y douglas match grade barrels and the never got worse ...which is important ( g ) . some barrels cut the groups in half . maybe they would have eventually shot better anyway ....

pretty scary stuff ... and remember i collect barrels, so that might account for my having no fear of you putting grit in yours ( g ) .

slightly more radical, although i would do it, if lead lapping is too much hassle ( takes 2 hours ) you could shoot 6 only firelaps with a mj bullet with 280 grit ground in .

I don't remember ever lead lapping a barrel, but maybe when I was very young. I got a kit from NECO and fire-lapped a few barrels, other guys barrels, and it seemed to improve accuracy. I don't think I dare trying it now, even with this $50 barrel.


since you asked ... you might consider rethroating to about 1/2 degree or so ....makes common sense, right ??? what could go wrong ???

I'm not a machinist, did it a few times with a hand held reamer, on Contender barrels. While getting firmly disgusted with Contenders and barrels, there was a fellow who would lend throating reamers, several calibers/pilots. But, I'm not a machinist...


just trying to help ...honest ...

ken

edit :  oh, how is the thread fit in your savage ....before you tighten the nut ?? 

The Savage barrel threads are long...just went and measured one, ~1.6” is threaded. I use synthetic disc brake grease on barrel threads, so both the nut and the action are kinda firmly on and there's resistance to turning. Barrel and action and nut threads seem to be about as large/small as reasonable.

also i forgot ...is your savage really well bedded...as in pillar bedded ???  just checking ...

As I understand it from Marlin Bassett, who invented pillar bedding, it's about oily/squishy wood replaced by pillars. And non oily/squishy wood. All the recent plastic Savage stocks are pillar bedded, with/but there's plastic ABOVE the pillars a bit. I believe that the plastic won't compress, and tighten action screws so: I don't want the action to rest on ANYTHING but the front and rear pillars and surrounding plastic. I put the barreled action in the stock upside down, pull it back so the lug stops it, and make it go up and down. I want ONLY one lift each way, as the action lifts off the front then rear pillars. When that is OK, I put the screws in and barely tight. Butt to left, I hold my right hand on the barrel /forend, and tighten the screws. I DON'T want the barrel to go into or out of the stock, NO MOVING! This means that the action is held by the 2 pillars/areas only. My M10 does this fine. My M12 has a magazine in the stock, and something hits the action between the 2 pillars, there are 2 movements up or down. I fixed this with masking tape, taping the plastic near the pillars, lifting the action up until nothing was touching between the pillars, no barrel/stock movement after the screws are started. I don't epoxy/devcon/wondergoo pillar bedded stocks, it makes no sense to me. (I've spent hours with the M12 trying to find what's hitting, no luck so far. I'm thinking about taking the magazine out and making a ctg supporter thing-I shoot all single shot, haven't put a cartridge in a rifle magazine since Sh-Boom.) 

Did I mention that yesterday's bullet were dropped on the concrete floor before loading? Cleaned each off, loaded them all, 83. I'm dropping things a lot more lately, if only there were a competition!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 January 2016

bedding is about making sure that every time you pull the trigger you are shooting the same rifle .

if your magazine bounces off of something sometimes but not others ... or even harder sometimes .... the rifle will scatter shots ... dang vibrations ...


and yep the pillars are to stabilize the torque of the action bolts .... the real bedding's job is to .... again .... be sure nothing moves from shot to shot . i like to ” pot ” the front ring and recoil feature( s ) .... and just have the rear tang setting on a pillar, no attempt to use the rear tang as a recoil feature . and the back of the magazine well should be clearanced .


more test targets please ...it is a long cold winter up here at the north pole ....

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 13 January 2016

BR SETUP

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joeb33050 posted this 13 January 2016

TARGET

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 January 2016

funny that the ” fliers ” in your 2 plus inch groups all went to the right . vibration ?

ready to try one of those ugly barrel tuners ??

ken, who likes to read things into directional groups ...

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joeb33050 posted this 14 January 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: funny that the ” fliers ” in your 2 plus inch groups all went to the right . vibration ?

ready to try one of those ugly barrel tuners ??

ken, who likes to read things into directional groups ...I just bought a “new” Stevens 22-250 22” sporter barrel. If it shoots, I want to cut one of these down to 16.5” and see if it shoots better/stiffer.

My 223 hvy varmint bbl has~4000 cast bullets through it, I've been trying to get it shooting since 1/30/13. Maybe chamber to 22-250 and see if it shoots?

Maybe we just need a bigger case in 22cf?

Working on a replacement for the Sterilite box as the rear rest.

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joeb33050 posted this 14 January 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: . and just have the rear tang setting on a pillar, no attempt to use the rear tang as a recoil feature kenThe savage guys make the rear tang free float, no contact with the stock. So, like a lemming, that's what I do. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 January 2016

joeb ... i have a ppg saami 22-250 reamer with separate throaters .... i would rechamber your 223 savage barrel to 22-250 if you want. what could go wrong ?? need barrel y some sample dummy loads .

ken

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John Alexander posted this 14 January 2016

Joe sez:

I just bought a “new” Stevens 22-250 22” sporter barrel. If it shoots, I want to cut one of these down to 16.5” and see if it shoots better/stiffer.

Joe,

You might want to slug that barrel before cutting it off to see what the inside dimensions are.  All four of my Savage 22 barrels have a decided “choke” in the last couple of inches before the muzzle.  I don't know if the sporters have that but it would be nice to know before cutting. If it does you could still cut and if it got better we could guess that it was because of the stiffness in spite of losing the choke or that both stiffless and getting rid of the choke helped ”€œ of course we wouldn't know which.   If the accuracy got worse in spite of improved stiffness we could guess that losing the choke hurt.   Of course it may have no choke now.   John

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joeb33050 posted this 14 January 2016

John Alexander wrote: Joe sez:

I just bought a “new” Stevens 22-250 22” sporter barrel. If it shoots, I want to cut one of these down to 16.5” and see if it shoots better/stiffer.

Joe,

You might want to slug that barrel before cutting it off to see what the inside dimensions are.  All four of my Savage 22 barrels have a decided “choke” in the last couple of inches before the muzzle.  I don't know if the sporters have that but it would be nice to know before cutting. If it does you could still cut and if it got better we could guess that it was because of the stiffness in spite of losing the choke or that both stiffless and getting rid of the choke helped ”€œ of course we wouldn't know which.   If the accuracy got worse in spite of improved stiffness we could guess that losing the choke hurt.   Of course it may have no choke now.   John

John' I'm trying to see the decision tree. Slug, measure, cut. Shoot and have a choice of reasons that it do or don't shoot. Nah. I don't slug barrels, gave away my chronograph and am soon to give away or sell my ultra-precise lead thermometer. I'll never have a borescope. Measurement and/or inspection only makes sense-to me- if there's action driven by the measurement/inspection. The question-to me-is simply-does it shoot- and I know how to find out fairly quickly. Remember, my second 22cf dance is 3 years old at the end of this month. Need a thermometer? (Notice that I did not mention a PIDdle controller. Now, some may not be impressed, but are they right?

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gpidaho posted this 14 January 2016

joeb: Encouraging results with the 80gr. NOE bullets today and all around great day at the range. Mid 40s and a light breeze. Doesn't get much better than that for mid January in Idaho. On my first outing with this bullet I seated them out long and let closing the action of the Handi finish seat the bullet. As with most of my Handi rifles the chamber is pretty long and this results in a max COL of 2.510 leaving the forward drive band and first lube groove outside the neck. Today I tried a different approach and seated the bullets to a COL of 2.412 getting all the bands inside the neck (looking for better concentricity) and used a softer alloy than my usual (BHN 11-12) Todays loads were, 223 Handi 1 in 9 twist, 80gr NOE 227 SP, sized .225 in Lee push through, gas checked. CCI 400 primer, seated to 2.412 and hand lubed with Saeco green. Fired at 65 paces for plus 50 yrds. RL7 @ 11gr. felt anemic and primers backed out some. These were on the outside of what I'd call a group at 4 1/2 inches. Next up 6,5gr Unique and a five shot group of .775” center to center. Now I know this proves nothing as a one off but going from barely hitting paper to under an inch is a big step forward in my experiment. I'm going to send along a few of these to you Joe in the hope that someone having better bench technique than I have can put them in a very small group. When I get back from family visit in Daytona I'll try some certified alloys and see if there is an improvement over my “Hobo stew". Enjoy the evening. Gp

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joeb33050 posted this 15 January 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: joeb ... i have a ppg saami 22-250 reamer with separate throaters .... i would rechamber your 223 savage barrel to 22-250 if you want. what could go wrong ?? need barrel y some sample dummy loads .

kenThanks for the offer, Ken. I'm going to make one more try to get this barrel shooting, then it goes to you. Maybe a couple of weeks. Today I've got a 22” sporter barrel on the rifle, with Blue Dot-this in 223. I'll shoot today, then put the heavy 26” barrel back on. Thanks; joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 15 January 2016

gpidaho wrote: joeb: Encouraging results with the 80gr. NOE bullets today and all around great day at the range. Mid 40s and a light breeze. Doesn't get much better than that for mid January in Idaho. On my first outing with this bullet I seated them out long and let closing the action of the Handi finish seat the bullet. As with most of my Handi rifles the chamber is pretty long and this results in a max COL of 2.510 leaving the forward drive band and first lube groove outside the neck. Today I tried a different approach and seated the bullets to a COL of 2.412 getting all the bands inside the neck (looking for better concentricity) and used a softer alloy than my usual (BHN 11-12) Todays loads were, 223 Handi 1 in 9 twist, 80gr NOE 227 SP, sized .225 in Lee push through, gas checked. CCI 400 primer, seated to 2.412 and hand lubed with Saeco green. Fired at 65 paces for plus 50 yrds. RL7 @ 11gr. felt anemic and primers backed out some. These were on the outside of what I'd call a group at 4 1/2 inches. Next up 6,5gr Unique and a five shot group of .775” center to center. Now I know this proves nothing as a one off but going from barely hitting paper to under an inch is a big step forward in my experiment. I'm going to send along a few of these to you Joe in the hope that someone having better bench technique than I have can put them in a very small group. When I get back from family visit in Daytona I'll try some certified alloys and see if there is an improvement over my “Hobo stew". Enjoy the evening. GpI'm glad it's showing promise-but don't accuse me of having a “better bench technique". I'm pretty wobbly. This 22-250 adventure, with 2 barrels-Striker and 22” sporter, has been an eye opener. For me, so far: 22-250 shoots better than 223; big cases are more accurate than smaller

22-250 14” twist shoots better than 223 9” twist, slower twist is more accurate than faster twist

50-60 grain 22 bullets shoot better than longer/heavier bullets. I've been worrying about wind at 200 yards while being unable to hit a softball at 100 yards with long bullets.

As I said, I've got a Stevens “new, unfired"  22-250 barrel on the way. I wonder if this one will shoot accurately?

Your 6 grains of TiteGroup recommendation is working great so far. Thank yopu.

joe b.

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John Alexander posted this 15 January 2016

             Joe's axioms designed to stir the pot:

  "22-250 shoots better than 223; big cases are more accurate than smaller."    As you know I love to poke at the conventional wisdom and this should offend the full case crowd if any are here.   "22-250 14” twist shoots better than 223 9” twist, slower twist is more accurate than faster twist"   This one IS the conventional wisdom.  I'm disappointed Joe.  However, it is usually overstated.  All four of the 9 twist Savages I've had would shoot 40 grain Vmaxs well under 1” which a Sako and a couple of Remingtons of my acquaintance won't with their 14” twists.  Other factors are more important'   "50-60 grain 22 bullets shoot better than longer/heavier bullets."   You are really swimming against the tide on this one with the top CBA competitors averaging 200 grains per bullet.  As for the 22 bore, there have been quite a few CBA competitors interested in shooting 22s with 14” twist and none have been competitive.   Keep up the interesting work.   John    

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 15 January 2016

joeb ....as long as you are shooting 56 gr bullets, why don't you get yourself a hart ...lilja...etc. 22 rimfire barrel in 16 - 17 twist and create a couple lonely little data dots for slow twist ??

the rimfire bench guys sell off perfectly good barrels every time they finish 4th or worse in front of their buddies . i used to buy them ... the tighter bores might even shoot better ...

ken

of course with a quality barrel you might start shooting 1/2 moa and peak too early ... we need you to keep pushing the envelope in the world of rough factory barrels ...

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