Bullet Catchers

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  • Last Post 30 September 2015
John Alexander posted this 21 September 2015

             In another thread started this morning by mtngun, a fired bullet caught in a water type bullet catcher is shown.  Speculation follows about what the unexpected land marks and damage tell. What are the possible causes? What could be done to avoid them? 

  I want to congratulate mtngun on doing a type CB research that I believe is absolutely necessary if we are ever to improve the level of precision cast bullet performance beyond where it has been for the last twenty years or so.   Without knowing what the bullet looks like AFTER it comes out the muzzle we are flying blind with lots of opinion and speculation.  This is all good clean fun but it isn't producing improvement in how precisely we can shoot cast bullets.   I think I can contribute one little bit of advice about what not to do if someone decides to catch bullets so they can be examined.  After reading on line that some commercial bullet catchers used fibers and having recently come into possession of a large quantity of wool fleece right off the sheep, I made a bullet catcher with wool as the medium. It was much lighter than oiled sawdust and didn't have some of the disadvantages of using water. My catcher was just a long plywood box glued together so I could use a metal detector to find the bullets.  I fired eight bullets with color coded bases.  Six were recovered.  All were missing the gas check and so badly damaged that they were useless.  I will try to repeat with oiled sawdust as Mann and Martin used successfully -- as I probably should have in the first place.   Snow is also claimed to be a good bullet catcher.  I expect there is going to be an abundance of that around here shortly but how to find the bullets in the spring and how to identify them so the ones found can be identified as from which load?  I have some tarps hmmmm.   John  

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gpidaho posted this 21 September 2015

John: I agree that an accurate postmortem would be very helpful in seeing “what went wrong” with the little pills. I'm watching mtngun's experiment with interest. One thing that comes to mind for those of us blessed with an abundance of the white stuff would be an old oval stock tank. If one had a rural property and a handy spot you could cut out one end and let nature take it's course adding or tamping the snow as needed. Gp

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mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

John, I haven't tried the oiled sawdust but it is on my wishlist. The problem with oiled sawdust is that you may need a very long box to catch a high velocity bullet -- maybe 20' - 30' long??? -- and the sawdust will need to be protected from the weather. In my part of the world the box would probably need to be indoors to keep from blowing away during our 70 mph windstorms.

I can confirm that large snowbanks work great, if you have the patience to wait until spring to recover the bullets.

Water kinda sorta works, but it is “hard” as you know if you have ever done a “belly buster” off the high dive at a swimming pool. Water works ok with hard bullets at revolver velocities, but even hard bullets will expand in water at rifle velocities -- unless they have a pointy nose. I am finding that my water tests are best limited to hard bullets and pointy noses.

Another issue with water is that it freezes, so any day now I will be forced to drain my water tank for the season. :(

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Bud Hyett posted this 21 September 2015

Ed Doonan and I built a bullet recovery box in the Mann style back in the early 80's. <>Two 4 X 8 sheet of CDX plywood ripped down the middle formed the sides.<>The closed end was scrap plywood two foot square<>The open end was long (18 inch) foam rubber triangular sections like a box fish trap.<>Ed was a carpenter and there was plenty of sawdust<>Used motor oil was added to the sawdust and shaken in a heavy duty 30 gallon trash bag<>Every foot from the two foot marker was a slot to pull waxed paper through to find the section where the bullet residedWhat we found:<>This setup worked very well for recovering cast bullets<>The wax paper was added after digging around in the sawdust several times.<>Varmint bullets never made it past the foam rubber funnels<>Hunting bullets might slightly expand, but the rifling marks would be visible<>Aligning the rifle or handgun bore to the center of the box was often a challenge, we dented the sides several times<>500 grain .45-70 bullets and the 173 grain National Match .30-'06 load would dent the end of the box; no other bullets made it past the seven foot mark.<>The eight foot length turned out to be providential since we thought the bullets would never get past the five foot mark<>A person can easily discern the skidding of the bullet by the marks on the rifling<>The base of the bullet will often slightly expand and can be measured.<>The gas check gap often has a lead deposit scraped from the travel in the bore <*>Interesting to see a Lyman .45 Caliber Gould hollowpoint sized .458 that turned slightly and went side ways down the bore; immediately went to .460 sizing die and stopped that conditionI am tempted to build another box like it; the results allow comparison of sizing and velocity.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Ed Harris posted this 22 September 2015

When I was at Ruger we used two 55-gallon drums welded end to end, with a round wire basket in the bottom, wound up by a crank and steel cable winch. Shot straight down from top of building roof, covering drum opening with heavy duty industrial trash bag so you didn't get soaked.

When I was a kid we shot from high diving board into deep end of swimming pool until neighbor who was county medical examiner retired and moved to Florida.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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bandmiller2 posted this 22 September 2015

I don't think there is a truly easy way, but my vote would go to loose fluffy rags in a glued box. Rags seem to ball up like Eider feathers do with birdshot. Frank C. ( as a kid my buddy and I would shoot our BB guns with an old rug behind, bottom in a gutter, BB's would roll back to us)

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John Alexander posted this 22 September 2015

I have deleted Gary's post. It was not only a political statement but more importantly talking about shooting a presidential candidate could easily attract the notice of the secret service which is very sensitive and maybe even a bit paranoid about such foolish talk. 

Such comments have the potential to not only result in a bad outcome for the writer but make the CBA and gun owners in general look stupid and maybe dangerous.  Something we don't need more of.

Please think before posting.

John 

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mtngun posted this 22 September 2015

BHyett wrote: <>Hunting bullets might slightly expand, but the rifling marks would be visible<>Aligning the rifle or handgun bore to the center of the box was often a challenge, we dented the sides several times<>500 grain .45-70 bullets and the 173 grain National Match .30-'06 load would dent the end of the box; no other bullets made it past the seven foot mark.<>The eight foot length turned out to be providential since we thought the bullets would never get past the five foot markThanks for the info BHyett, it'll help me if I ever build a sawdust box.   I was wondering how long it would need to be.   Best to err on the long side.     

I would think a metal detector would be desirable for locating the bullets in the sawdust ?

My first attempt at a bullet catcher was a single 55 plastic gallon drum about 38” tall, with a wire basket on the bottom similar to what Ed Harris described.   I quickly learned that 38” of water was not enough for cast bullets.   :P

They tell me that  "Mythbusters" did a feature on shooting bullets into water, and they came to the conclusion that high velocity jacketed rounds usually break up within 3 feet, but lower velocity solids may travel up to 8 feet.   Of course our hard cast bullets are reknowned for their ability to penetrate and that probably applies to water, too.  

I made my current catcher over 10 feet long (11 1/2 if you include the tapered section).   Rather than using a wire basket to retrieve the bullets, it tapers to meet two 2” PVC valves in series.  The two valves act as a lock system so that bullets can exit the tank without losing much water.   The valves work as intended and so far no bullets have dented the tank, though I have yet to try a hi velocity rifle round.    You do get a little wet and the gun has to be cleaned up and oiled afterward.   

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oscarflytyer posted this 22 September 2015

I saw somewhere recently that someone was using 50/50 candle wax and vaseline as a sort of ballistic gelatin. It did not look like it stopped the bullet - there was a BIG hole thru the block! But the bullet was recovered. Looked like the gel mix was in a big PVC pipe. From what you guys are saying, looked like the gel slowed the bullet down and allowed some other method to stop/collect it. Not sure. But I AM thinking it would take a LOT of vaseline!

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Notlwonk posted this 22 September 2015

It may have been the same Mythbusters feature when they started with a tank made of plexiglass or some similar material. 12 ga slug(?) and the tank ruptured. Funny!! and wet.

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John Alexander posted this 22 September 2015

If I remember correctly Merrill Martin said that he classic Elmer Keith 44 mag load with the Keith style bullet penetrated further than about anything including all the way through one the army was using to catch some pretty hot stuff.  I should reread that article which I have somewhere before trying the oiled sawdust. John

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norm posted this 23 September 2015

I have used snow to catch bullets. I line up a bunch of cardboard boxes making sure the boxes and barrel are aligned so bullets don't exit the side of a box. After one shot I locate the box that has an entrance hole and no exit hole, dump it on a coarse screen to seperate the snow and bullet.

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oscarflytyer posted this 23 September 2015

Notlwonk wrote: It may have been the same Mythbusters feature when they started with a tank made of plexiglass or some similar material. 12 ga slug(?) and the tank ruptured. Funny!! and wet. No - what I saw was book/magazine or forum somewhere.

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fecmech posted this 23 September 2015

I decided to do some playing this winter and shoot some bullets into the snow. The bullets shot were the Lyman “Keith” 358429 sized .358, lightly taper crimped on the front drive band to an OAL of 1.638 (to fit my GP 100 cyl). Load was 14.9/wc820/CCI SR primer and clocks about 1260 FPS out of my 6” GP. The top row of bullets was pure lead, the next was ACWW and the bottom row is a 50/50 WW/lino mix air cooled. As you can see the acceleration forces on the pure lead Keiths turned them into FPTC's BUT they did not lead the barrel at all and as you can see did not skid on the rifling. Bases were badly distorted I think by either muzzle pressure or at the cyl gap. They left a slight bit of molten lead at the edge of the forcing cone. When shot at a 25 yd target 2 or 3 would hit together in about an inch with others 2 or 3” away. I'm guessing the flyers were ones with blown bases as they don't strip on the rifling. Acceleration forces also show up on the ACWW in that the nose sets back slightly closing up the crimp and lube grooves along with bases showing some slight distortion but not bad. From previous accuracy testing ACWW's will average 2.7” at 50 yds for five 5 shot groups. Water dropped WW do no better. The 50/50 bullets show no setback and have the most square bases of all the bullets. Again from previous accuracy testing with more than five 5 shot groups at 50 yds they average 1.9” groups. My wc820 tracks exactly WW296 so I'm guessing this load is slightly north of 30K PSI. Just thought I'd share with the board.

These were posted some time back at Castboolits.  Living where I do near Buffalo NY I use the snow method behind my house.  If I'm trying different things I mark the bullets with a number of lines or even a vibrating marker now that I have one and just keep notes on what was shot till the thaw.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 September 2015

thanks for posting this . i was glad to see that neither of the two harder alloys tilted enough to cause land marks on the nose .

it would be most interesting to capture and examine what happened to bullets that we term * flyers * ... are they visibly different ? someday ......

ken

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onondaga posted this 24 September 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6414>fecmech

It is nice to see you put our snow to good use. I still have 2 year old Christmass snow in my freezer.

You are about 10 miles from me. I am ready for spectacular snow in December, Almanac says 2 big storms in December. I have bucks grouping in my neighborhood and the black hairy caterpillars are really bushy. We are going to get creamed this winter. I am hoping the Niagara River freezes this winter. I like to take a traditional walk across it with a few old friends.

Gary

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mtngun posted this 27 September 2015

Thanks for the pic, fecmech.  :cool:   Wish I had some giant snowbanks to shoot into.

I do see slight skidding on your ACWW & 50/50, but that's completely normal for a revolver bullet and not much you can do about it.    Your accuracy is fine so that's all that counts.

1260 fps out of a 6” barrel is a lukewarm load, 25 - 30 ksi with WW296 (though the sample of WC820 that I tried years ago seemed different than WW296).    By comparison my 2 3/4” snubnose clocks 1300 fps with a 160 gr. bullet, and I've pressure traced that load in the low 30's.  

Anyway, here is an air-cooled WW recovered from my water tank today.   Not surprisingly it mushroomed when it hit the water at ~1900 fps.   In fact, the shock wave from the mushroomed bullet cracked the welds on my tank about 1 1/2 feet below the surface.    Oops !:P

The interesting thing about this bullet is that the one surviving groove is chock full of lube (Rooster HVR).   Most recovered bullets lack lube but I suspect that is due to the water (or dirt, or whatever) scouring out the lube.

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mtngun posted this 27 September 2015

Welds cracked after shooting soft bullet that mushroomed.    I'm not talking a little pinhole, it's a crack 2” long.    Must make a powerful shock wave ? I'll repair it but it'll probably fail again.   So I'll have to conjur up some sort of baffle to absorb the shock wave ????

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bandmiller2 posted this 27 September 2015

Mtngun, perhaps one of those long foam noodles the kids use in the pool would take up the gaff of the bullets shock. Frank C.

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mtngun posted this 27 September 2015

bandmiller2 wrote: Mtngun, perhaps one of those long foam noodles the kids use in the pool would take up the gaff of the bullets shock. Frank C.The same thought occurred to me, Frank.    

The tank will be drained and taken out of service for winter, anyway, so I have 6 months or so to come up with something.   I don't want to fix it a second time -- my welder leads don't reach back there and it's in an awkward position.     

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RicinYakima posted this 28 September 2015

Since water is non-compressible, the foam will not last long, maybe only one shot. You may consider a strong round tube liner of steel in the depth of bullet expansion.

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