JACKETED CAST BULLET TEST It is said that if a rifle will not shoot jacketed bullets accurately, then it will not shoot cast bullets accurately. I have no idea if this is true or not, and suspect that the sayers don't either. The implicit assumption is that it is easier to find an accurate jacketed bullet load than it is to find an accurate cast bullet load. This, in my limited experience, is probably true. Then with a new, at least to the shooter, rifle, the method is: test for accuracy with a jacketed bullet load before trying to find an accurate cast bullet load. If the rifle shoots a jacketed bullet load accurately then it may shoot cast bullets accurately. If it does not shoot jacketed bullets accurately, then it probably will not shoot cast bullets accurately. I buy and sell and test barrels for Savage 10 and 12 series rifles frequently, removing and replacing the barrels. I have changed Savage barrels well over fifty times now, find it easy and fast, and an ideal setup for my kind of experimenting. My method with an unknown rifle (or barrel) is to look at what I have for powders and jacketed bullets, look in a few reloading manuals, and pick a load of available components that is just below the starting load. Somewhere between 15 and 25 cartridges are loaded and fired. If the cartridges shoot into something like an inch for a few groups at 100 yards, I call that accurate. And, every rifle or barrel I have tested was accurate with jacketed bullets, until the 25-06 barrel. My records, 5 shot 100 yard groups, “ 11/29/03; Savage 12 BVSS, 223 Rem, Sierra 52 gr HPBT match #1410, 22/IMR4198, .825, .55. .5 2/13/13; Savage 12FV, 223 Rem Horn 60gr VMAX, 25/Varget .85, .875 4/2/14 Horn 55 gr. Vmax, 25 Varget 1.025, 1.125 2/19/14; Savage 10, 223 Rem 22” sporter bbl, Horn 55 gr Vmax, 25/Varget, 1.45 2/26/14 Horn 55 gr Vmax, 23/IMR4895, 1.4, 1.2 2/5/14; Savage 10, 22-250 Heavy varmint bbl, Horn 55 gr Vmax, 34/Varget, .8, 1.4 The 25-06 is a 22” light sporter barrel that looks to be in almost-new condition. The load was the Sierra 87 gr. Spitzer, #1610, WLR primers, Varget and reformed R-P 270 Win brass. The starting load in Lyman 48 is 43/Varget. 15 were loaded with 40/Varget, 10 with 41/Varget. All 5 shot 100 yard groups. On 7/9/14, shooting the 40/Varget, 2 shots got me on the target and 5 shot groups were 2.325” and 3”. The 41/Varget groups were 2.6” and 2.2”. On 7/16/14, one 40/Varget fouler and then 42/Varget groups were 2.2” and 1.95”. The 43/Varget loads shot all over the paper with no measurable groups. So for 45 cartridges loaded, 43 shot, it looks like this barrel won't shoot accurately under my test conditions; and is probably not a good candidate for cast bullet shooting. I'll unscrew the barrel and put another on, save the barrel and try again with another bullet and/or powder. But right now, no cast bullets in this barrel for me.
JACKETED CAST BULLET TEST
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- Last Post 04 October 2014
so---just to test the common knowledge that lead shoots twice+ as bad as jacketed, we expect lead to shoot in your 25-06 barrel ... about 5 to 7 inches.
10 shots, couple different loads .
i won't laugh, 4 inches is my usual lead groups.
maybe use a newspaper for a starter target ( g ) .
hey, i will buy your 257 barrel, i got a 250 savage reamer i been wanting to try. how long is the savage barrel now ? 22 in. would be ok. ken
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Greetings,
I have a 25-06 that I loaded for using my old Speer manual, which was 52 grains of IMR4831 for 117 grain Hornady bullet. I loaded only 4 rounds, clover leafed 3 at 100 yards, the outside shot was the first, and it was about 3/4 of an inch out. Max load was 53 grains, did not go there, figured clover leafing was good enough. Just FYI. Good luck.
TK
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when a barrel shoots as bad as joe's 25 is doing, it is most likely a tube that is moving with the stress of firing. the cure that might work is further stress-relieving/heat-treating; but the economic cure is to stop shooting it.
possibly it has a bad chamber job, but that could be seen by inspecting bullet engraving.
it is most likely to wind up as an extension handle for a lugnut wrench. but i would be interested in rechambering y trying it one more time just to maybe learn something. i got an extra rem. 788 action to screw it into.
ken
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so---just to test the common knowledge that lead shoots twice+ as bad as jacketed, we expect lead to shoot in your 25-06 barrel ... about 5 to 7 inches.
10 shots, couple different loads .
i won't laugh, 4 inches is my usual lead groups.
maybe use a newspaper for a starter target ( g ) .
hey, i will buy your 257 barrel, i got a 250 savage reamer i been wanting to try. how long is the savage barrel now ? 22 in. would be ok. kenKen;The barrel is ~ 22” long, gets small quick, may have never been shot before, got hot quick and is $60 delivered to your door.joe b.
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I would be interested in knowing if anybody has found an exception to the rule Joe mentions that if it won't shoot good JBs it probably won't shoot CBs well.
if I remember correctly, Ed Doonan's refinement on that rule was to shoot Sierra Match Kings of the same weight as the CB of interest and shoot them at the expected CB velocity. This make sense to me.
My old Ruger 1B 223 that shot the 71grain NEI bullet so well for years. Wouldn't shoot 52 grain match JB as well as my CB load. But #1s are sometimes fussy and I now wish I had tried jacket bullets of weights closer to 70 grains and shot them at CB velocities as Ed suggested.
However, my limited experience suggests that cast bullets can be made to shoot much better than twice the group size for JBs suggested by Ken. That may be because I can't shoot a round bottom forend rifle any better than about than an average of .7MOA for five shot groups no matter how good the rifle and load. If I had one of those rifles we read about on the Internet that shoot tiny groups with CBs I could test myself and see if my limit really was .7.
John
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so---just to test the common knowledge that lead shoots twice+ as bad as jacketed, we expect lead to shoot in your 25-06 barrel ... about 5 to 7 inches.
10 shots, couple different loads .
i won't laugh, 4 inches is my usual lead groups.
maybe use a newspaper for a starter target ( g ) .
hey, i will buy your 257 barrel, i got a 250 savage reamer i been wanting to try. how long is the savage barrel now ? 22 in. would be ok. kenKen;The barrel is ~ 22” long, gets small quick, may have never been shot before, got hot quick and is $60 delivered to your door.joe b.Ken; The barrel is off, replaced with a 243 barrel. I'm ready to ship!!!
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JOE: ok on bbl; pm on way.
JOHN A. : install a slider plate on the bottom of your forend :: i used delrin sheet 1/4 ” thick, about 3 x 4 in. used 2 flat heads countersunk a tad; 10-32 is ok, 2 ” apart. anchor the screws with essentially upside down pillars.
attach the pillars to the ” top ” of the slider plate and epoxy everything into clearance holes ( end milled ) into the stock bottom 2 in. apart.
now you can test with the slider and take it off for LEGALITY.
i used delrin because it is slick. aluminum is ok but you have to baby powder it.
no more exuses. . hey, national champions don't get to whine !!! ( g ) .
i question using a stock rule rifle for testing. winning is one game, testing is another. i keep thinking i will write a defining post on stock class matches, but it keeps running into overly long rambles.
i think stock class should allow a father, wife, 2 kids to enter a match, shoot really large groups at a very large bullseye, or milk jug .... and at least half the contestants tie for the win. pizza and a ribbon for all.
if we have expert obsessive shooters shooting stock rifle after stock rifle to find a good one ... aren't we just testing stock rifles ?
in my toy car racing we kept trying to define a stock motor class ... at the next race we had an obsessive racer show up with the pick of 15 ” stock ” engines ...
see why i haven't wroten on this subject ?
( g )
ken
btw, obsessive people are my heros ..
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Updated the original article. While searching for my older records I found that the records for prior tests with Savage barrels have been lost-my error. I wonder if Darryl Issa wants to quiz me?
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Ken, Thanks for the tip on using a delrin for a slider plate. I have been intending to make one out of aluminum or wood. My idea is to see if I can securely fasten it with something that screws into the front sling attachment hole. Maybe cast a bondo top for the plate that exactly fits the forend? I agree that it would make testing easier easier but like a lot of my projects it hasn't gotten to the top of the list. Don't understand guys that run out of projects in retirement.
There is one drawback. You should practice with the slider off rather than learning to shoot the round bottom during a match.
All clubs should have some factory rifle matches along the lines you mention if we want to attract new shooters. Some skill required but not too much to get a ribbon.
I suspect we have very few CBA shooters sorting through rifles to find a good one for production or hunting rifles classes. These are the folks that will spend twenty minutes looking for a primer dropped in the grass. I have never understood what satisfaction anybody gets out of a win by cheating. Yet when I mention that we shoot postal matches a new shooter's reaction is usually how do you know people aren't cheating. John
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i didn't mean to imply that anyone was puncturing the rules in cba shooting ... i doubt that that occurs to any extent.
in my 25 yrs of toy car racing, i saw cheating only 2 or 3 times; that in an extremely competitive sport.
in fact, if someone were to ” cheat ” in stock rifle classes, i would love to read a post on how they made their factory rifle shoot better !! ( g ) .
i played with wads and fillers but ..as joe b. might say ... my results didn't converge ...
i didn't get leading anyway before the fillers/wads ... and accuracy was the same ... the only maybe interesting thing was that my backwards gas checks worked as well as crimp-ons re: higher velocity accuracy.
speaking of gc., i have found some hornady 22 and 308 while organizing my shop .. pm me if.
ken
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On 9/17/14 I shot a 243 Win barrel on a M10 Savage. The object was to test the barrel with jacketed bullets before trying cast bullets. Fed Fusion once fired brass FL sized and chamfered. WLP., 60 gr. Sierra #1500, 2.592” oal 2 five shot 100 yard groups each load 39 Varget, 2.025”, 2.05” avg. 2.538” 40 Varget, .6”, 1.6”, avg 1.1” I have never seen such a change in 1 grain of powder. More testing is required.
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I too have never see that much difference in average accuracy of a few groups with such a small powder change (less than 3% in your test.)
Of course you often see this much change between two single groups of two different charges which leads some folks to believe they have found a magic load of exactly the charge that shot the single best group.
It will be interesting to see if you can duplicate this difference with more groups.
Is the barrel fat or skinny?
It would be interesting to see if you could identify why an inaccurate barrel (your 25-06 barrel may be a candidate) is inaccurate. Bore scoping might show the answer. Upsetting a soft lead slug in one end and pushing it slowly through to see if there are loose or tight spots also might be interesting.
Now that I have suggested extra work for you I remember that I have a 223 barrel for the H&R Handy Rifle that would be a good candidate for such an examination.
John
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I too have never see that much difference in average accuracy of a few groups with such a small powder change (less than 3% in your test.)
I'M WONDERING IF THE BARREL WAS NEW/UNFIRED, AND THE FIRST GROUPS BROKE IT IN. THERE WAS VERY LITTLE COPPER AFTER 25 SHOTS, 1 GREEN PATCH WITH/AFTER SWEETS.
Of course you often see this much change between two single groups of two different charges which leads some folks to believe they have found a magic load of exactly the charge that shot the single best group.
It will be interesting to see if you can duplicate this difference with more groups.
Is the barrel fat or skinny?
A SKINNY 22” SPORTER BARREL.
It would be interesting to see if you could identify why an inaccurate barrel (your 25-06 barrel may be a candidate) is inaccurate. Bore scoping might show the answer. Upsetting a soft lead slug in one end and pushing it slowly through to see if there are loose or tight spots also might be interesting.
I SOLD THE BARREL TO KEN, MAYBE HE'LL SCOPE OR SLUG IT. THE 25-06 IS JUST TOO BIG, I'D LIKE A 250-3000 BARREL.
Now that I have suggested extra work for you I remember that I have a 223 barrel for the H&R Handy Rifle that would be a good candidate for such an examination.
John
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On the subject of varying powder charges to find “sweet spots":
I have an accurate .25-06 that was used for antelope hunting. My original load grouped under 0.5 MOA but I wasn't happy with the velocity. I kept increasing the charge by .5 grains and as I did the group size increased until it was slightly larger than 1.0 MOA. I added more powder and at the last increase the group shrank to less than 0.25 MOA.
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On the subject of varying powder charges to find “sweet spots":
I have an accurate .25-06 that was used for antelope hunting. My original load grouped under 0.5 MOA but I wasn't happy with the velocity. I kept increasing the charge by .5 grains and as I did the group size increased until it was slightly larger than 1.0 MOA. I added more powder and at the last increase the group shrank to less than 0.25 MOA. Bill, This is exactly the situation I was thinking of when I made the following remark:
"Of course you often see this much change between two single groups of two different charges which leads some folks to believe they have found a magic load of exactly the charge that shot the single best group."
It is not uncommon to have an experience similar to the one you describe especially when shooting three shot groups. The key question is will the next four groups at the load that produced the .25 MOA group AVERAGE .25 moa and will the load with .5 grain less powder really shoot average groups four times as large or 1.0 moa?
John
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John, If you shoot 3 shot groups for testing you are fooling yourself.
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John, If you shoot 3 shot groups for testing you are fooling yourself.
Bill,
I don't, but I thought you might be to get the results you mentioned. I apologize for my assumption.
I agree with your statement if you mean one 3 shot group. However, I suggest modifying your statement above to: If you rely on single groups of 2,3,5, 6, or 10 shots for testing you are probably fooling yourself.
The total number of shots fired with each load to evaluate accuracy and not disregarding the shots you don't like are more important than the number of shots in individual groups.
Six 3-shot groups or four 5-shot groups, averaged and properly adjusted to the equivalent of a ten shot group, provide a better estimate of accuracy than one ten shot group. See any statistics book.
Contrary to an often repeated myth there really are lucky ten (or twenty) shot groups they just don't come as often. John
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I do 5 shots (at the beginning). Pick the smallest 5 shot group of the series, and shoot 5 groups of 5 tightly bracketing the suspected-good group. Gets there fast. IF (perhaps WHEN) they don't verify has done so with a few instead of a lot of bullets.
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On 10/1/14 I shot the 243 Win/M10 Savage; all the same loads except powder charges as noted.. Instead of shooting 5 shots in a 15 minute relay, to minimize barrel heating, I followed a suggestion and fired 10 shots in each of two 15 minute relays. 40 Varget, 1.75”, 1.85”, avg 1.8” 41 Varget, 1.7”, 2.275”, avg. 1.99” The barrel got extremely hot. The barrel had a lot of copper fouling, cleaning the copper out took an elapsed 7 hours with Sweets 7.62 and many green patches. Cleaning after the 9/17/14 firing produced only one green patch, same solvent.
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