Perfect powder?

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  • Last Post 14 January 2016
joeb33050 posted this 22 January 2014

We now have brass and bullets for grandson Sam's Colombian Mauser 30-06. I want to get him started reloading with a Lee Loader.I can't keep up with all the new powders. So, is there a not-black powder that will work with cast 170-200 grain bullets in 30-06 that fills the case enough so that double charges are improbable = more than half full?  He'll be 16 soon, so safety is paramount. Thanks;joe b.

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dbarron posted this 14 January 2016

That makes me sad.   Sorry.

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mike0841 posted this 13 January 2016

Gentlemen -- I don't know if you realize it but the perfect powder is the one that works best in your gun.

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joeb33050 posted this 10 January 2016

Sam and his mother talked about all the killing, it bothered him a lot. He's given up the shooting and reloading, the guns etc are on the way to the dump, or Riley's.

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afmelo posted this 10 January 2016

I just found another European powder - the LOVEX. It is used by some of our ISSF shooters to reload the .308, using the double base D073.6. Info here: http://www.explosia.cz/en/streliviny/download/reloadingEN.pdf Seems to be good for a lot of calibers!

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afmelo posted this 10 January 2016

Hi, The classic old military rifles are usually a joy to shoot, provided the ammo is not too strong for my ageing shoulder! I currently have a 1896  Steyr 6,5x53R, a Vergueiro Mauser 1904 in 8x57, and a Mosin Nagan 7,62x54R PU Sniper, from Tula 1943. What seems to  happen is that the European military ammo is stronger then the US commercial ammo for the usual military calibers, and in this aspect, for the 8mm Mauser, Portuguese FNM ammo and the Yugoslavian  surplus have very strong recoil! So parting from the available good quality Portuguese FNM ammo from the 70's, which has the following characteristics: FMJ 198 gr bullet, berdan non corrosive primer, 45.5 gr of a non disclosed single base powder in back flakes, speed   around 2.500 fps I dismantled the cartridges with an inertia bullet hammer from Lyman and saved the components. Then I took two approaches to reduced and light loads: (i)                  Reduced loads - using the original components, reassembled the cartridges only reducing the powder to various weights between 36 gr and 40 gr. The best result was in the region of 38 gr with average speeds of   1920 fps ”€œ 520 mps. Good groups and mild recoil.   (ii)                Light loads - using the original components except the powder, and lubricated the FMJ bullets with Molly powder. Best groups: Powder Vectan A1 ”€œ 11,5 gr speeds - 1211/1213/1204/1207/1194 fps, average ”€œ 365 mps Powder Vectan A1 ”€œ 12 gr Speeds - 1273/1272/1281/1267/1269 - Average - 387 mps Powder Vectan A1 ”€œ 12,5 gr Speeds - 1299/1307/1305/1303/1309 - Average  - 397 mps The recoil is similar to stronger .22 rimfire ammo.   Also tried some subsonic charges with this powder, but very poor accuracy. For instance with 8,5 gr the speeds in 5 shots varied a lot: 790/796/896/848/915 fps and dispersed through the all target!!! Just one final note:  all charges were weighted  one by one in a Lyman Gen. 5 powder system, to be assured of its exact correction. The difference in speeds might be due to the small volume occupied by the powder in the large cartridge and therefore different ignition.  Next time will reload with cast bullets as soon as my Lyman Loverin molds shall arrive!

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afmelo posted this 13 December 2015

Many thanks.I think I now have the necessary information for an educated experience!Will report in due course .All the best 

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mckg posted this 13 December 2015

I don't think you get much of a choice in Europe with native powders.

When I used these, I bought a recent “Malfatti” and ended up looking at Bullseye and Unique data, specially when it came to the A series (at the time they were considered as shotgun powders). The French market was a (state owned) SNPE monopoly, not a very fertile ground for competition. Eventually I caught an excellent article in Cibles from the same author, covering the fast A's and Ba's in common pistol calibers.

I just remembered that site, which used to be free, and has data for cast bullets and some European powders: http://web.archive.org/web/20040603231455/http://www.bordingl.com/ricarica1.htm

H&N: http://www.lhs-germany.de/uploads/media/HNLaborierungsdaten2010.pdf

And Malfatti wrote an article for Cibles in November 98, about subsonic loads. You have an abstract on page 2 here: http://www.tirmaillyforum.com/mildot/viewtopic.php?p=409464

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afmelo posted this 10 December 2015

Thanks mckg I speak French as well and gave a look into the french language fora.Indeed Alan Gheerbrant manual seems to be impossible to find! There were some links to a PDF copy but not working anylonger... I will look into Spanish and Italian fora, as well, and will try Nobelsport directly. This is very curious, I notice now that although being European I allways looked for American info for relaoding and not to European sources! Even my books, with the exception of some French books on black powder, are American! I guess is the practical direct approach, and problem solving attitude, that really attracts me!

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mckg posted this 10 December 2015

Guide pratique du rechargement, by Alain F. Gheerbrant.

It was available in paperback with, I think, a CD copy included. The author, who was working on an updated version, was selling the CD on his own too. He passed away early this year and that supply dried up too.

I was very disappointed not to find any Cast Bullet load for rifle in it, outside of the “Cowboy” calibers. He did mention A0 and Tu2000 for casts on French Forums.

In that regard, the previous Manuel de rechargement, from Rene Malfatti, was better (can be found, at ridiculous prices).

Nobelsport has been known to answer requests for loads so you can try to contact them.

gmdr.com has some loads with Vectan pistol powders in rifles; you can compare them to more common US products.

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afmelo posted this 09 December 2015

HI mckg - in fact I have access to Tubal 2000 from time to time. Thanks for the information and I will try to find the data should I be able to access the latest manual written by SNPE's field tester. Is that public?

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mckg posted this 09 December 2015

afmelo, can you get Tubal 2000? This is the go-to powder for rifle calibers reduced loads with jacketed bullets in the latest manual written by SNPE's field tester.

1.6 grams/24.7 grains with a Speer 2285 200gr for 450m/s (1476fps)

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afmelo posted this 09 December 2015

Ric, Absolutely right! And I have a very sizeable bibliotheca”¦ However I have been a pistol shooter for +40 years and only recently moved to benchrest. First rimfire BR50, having been systematically in the three first places in all categories in the National Championship this year. Now trying central fire as well, I have a 6mm PPC for 100, 200 and 300 meters and the 8x57 Mauser to shoot open sights BR and ordnance 100, 200 and 300 meters. This is the first time I reload for rifles and looked for a reduced load for the Mauser, to save my shoulder”¦ I used to hunt wild boars with a .300 W magnum but never reloaded for it, so no experience with rifle reloading at all. But talking about squib loads I have reloaded lots of them for .38 Special in the past ”€œ usually a very light squib using only the primer in brass with enlarged primer vent-hole and beeswax bullets”¦ To shoot at 5 meters distance was the sport!!! This is, I am sure, a very old solution I have used to shoot in the garage some 40 years ago! I also loaded hundreds of light loads for .32 and .38 with DuPont 700X, for practice”¦ But, as I said, never did it for large capacity cartridge rifles and this is why instead of going back to the already “dusty” books I decided to try a “shortcut” through the internet”¦ And I was happy enough to find this list, at the end of the day! Now, coming back to the books I am checking the powders and comparing the available data. I simply wanted to be sure that I was not making any basic stupid mistake! Now preparing the loads and the chronograph to try them on the range as soon as the time and weather permits”¦ All the best

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RicinYakima posted this 09 December 2015

AFmelo,

The answer is to stop looking at the internet and read books.

Ric

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afmelo posted this 08 December 2015

Thanks Mike.  I have in fact read so much contradictory information on this topic in the various internet  fora that I was really confused on what to do!   

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Mike H posted this 08 December 2015

afmelo wrote: Please forgive my ignorance but I have not understood whether these reduced loads in large cartridges such as 30.06 an 8x57 should or not be used with a filler over the powder.I do not find PRSSB here and wonder whether, if advisable to use a filler, what could I use as substitute filler. My 8x57 Mauser cartridges with a reduced load of 10gr. Vectan A1 (similar to Unique as I understand), will fill only about 1/4 of the total cartridge volume or even less! I thought it would be better to fill the extra volume with something but frankly don't know what! Can you help? Thanks in advance.There is no need for fillers with the faster shotgun/pistol powders.

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afmelo posted this 08 December 2015

Please forgive my ignorance but I have not understood whether these reduced loads in large cartridges such as 30.06 an 8x57 should or not be used with a filler over the powder.I do not find PRSSB here and wonder whether, if advisable to use a filler, what could I use as substitute filler. My 8x57 Mauser cartridges with a reduced load of 10gr. Vectan A1 (similar to Unique as I understand), will fill only about 1/4 of the total cartridge volume or even less! I thought it would be better to fill the extra volume with something but frankly don't know what! Can you help? Thanks in advance.

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admiral posted this 08 December 2015

Jeff Houck wrote: Thanks for your posting - it's perfect! Telling me what the original base material of puff-lon is made from is great! I had homed in on the PRSSB and was going to try it until I saw that they wanted $15.70 shipping. Seems frightfully high.  I'm going to try and find a bulk supplier for the PRSSB material.  Thanks for the help. JeffI use PR spherical buffer all the time. I also never order online from them for the reason you state: high shipping fees. In their print catalog they had a note about calling if you thought shipping was high. I always call in my order and they will go the extra mile to find the cheapest route for shipping. I have many times had the shipping price cut 40%. I buy PSB in the 10# bag when I order shotshell components.

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mckg posted this 08 December 2015

Here are two versions of one of Ed's articles, mentioning the 8x57; the first one tells you how to get a stuck bullet out of your bore :):

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-479034.html http://www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14419

Regarding the low end, with cast bullets, 7grs of Bullseye or Red Dot and 8grs of Unique give similar speeds (*); but I would like Ed to clarify the acceptable bullet weight as the first text says 150 grains.

*: http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

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afmelo posted this 07 December 2015

"... if the military bullets you just pulled have a steel core or jacket, I would not use them...”

Thanks mckg! In fact the bullets are 198 gr. FMJ - coper jacket with lead core of very good quality, manufactured during the 70's and packed in sealed boxes! They manufactured this ammo until the early 90's, when the plant has been deactivated, and is still sold at high price for target shooting (ordnance). This is the link of the principal seller in Portugal ”€œ (sorry it's in Portuguese, but you can see the prices in euros)! http://www.qualifire.pt/novidadesdetail.php?aID=290 So I ma saving the combined cartridge/bullet ”€œ lubricated with Moly ”€œ and just trying various charges of Vectan A1. AS previously mentioned I have loaded charges from 8.5 gr. Up to 13 gr. In intervals of 0.5 gr. My point is whether any of the lower and higher limits is too low or too high, and I have no experience with these loads to decide where to start safely. Perhaps from the mid-scale going up and down slowly! Any info on this idea? Thanks a lot.

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mckg posted this 07 December 2015

One more thought afmelo: if the military bullets you just pulled have a steel core or jacket, I would not use them. On top of increasing barrel wear they would have a higher drag and would be more likely to get stuck in it.

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