WORST SHOOTING I'VE EVER DONE

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  • Last Post 08 October 2018
loophole posted this 23 September 2018

Took my mod '94 25-35 to the range yesterday for the first time since I bought it a couple of weeks ago.  Took 10 different loads with two bullets--Lyman 248231 (115gr rnfp) and RCBS 25-85-fn. Sized .258. Loads from this site and the Wolfe load data site, using such powders as Trail boss, Unique, Tite group.

The rifle was made in  1907, but the rifling is sharp, no pits, no damage to crown. Slugs .257.  Bullets seem to fit well in chamber.  Lyman receiver sight.  This rifle ought to shoot these loads into 3-6" at 100 yds off good bench rest,  with some 1-1-1/2".

I was very disappointed to find these loads throwing bullets all over the paper--sometime hard to tell where they went.  I tried a target at 25yds to be sure I was nor just having trouble holding on the black at 100 yds, but they still wouldn't stay in the black on a 100 yd target. No leading with any load. Why are none of these loads worth  working with?  I will try gas check bullets next, but this rifle should shoot pb bullets..

Any ideas?

Steve k

 

 

 

 

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joeb33050 posted this 23 September 2018

My guess is that the bullets aren't stabilizing. 8.5 Titegroup or more might work, or 14/IMR4227. The groups go wild on the beginning of instability.

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loophole posted this 23 September 2018

My Titegroup load was 8.5 grs.  How fast you reckon you can push 85 and 115 gr hard pb bullets with no leading?

Steve k

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onondaga posted this 23 September 2018

Try the first basic I use that you don't mention. Bullet fit to chamber you say is OK, check it with ink on a dummy load. If your bullet REALLY fits your rifle it should take 1-2 pounds more lever push than a jacketed round just to chamber. Cast bullet accuracy is heavily reliant on a stable fit to the chamber before ignition. Numbers don't matter to test this, you can check it with ink or by feel comparison to jacketed bullets. If cast bullet loads just drop in, they don't fit your rifle well at all and are far below the accuracy potential of a correctly fit cast bullet..

Gary

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32-20 posted this 23 September 2018

I was just out shooting my Win. 55 in 25-35 today. Using the lyman 257325 with gas check and 10gr. 2400 powder it was grouping very well at 50 yds. My 55 is set up like yours with a receiver sight. (redfield 102) I had a Marlin 336 that was re-barreled to 25-35 and it wouldn't shoot a plain base bullet at all,but did well with the 257325.

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David Reiss posted this 24 September 2018

I tend to agree with Joe and Gary. Model 94s in .25-35 WFC have always been noted for their accuracy. Gary is right that you should feel some resistance with the seating of the bullet. What are the loads you used? That will go a long way to help us, help you. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
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loophole posted this 24 September 2018

The longer bullet seated to go through the action is very lightly engraved on the nose on chambering the round.  The nose on the 85 gr bullet is too short and rounded  to be engraved.  Some of my loads, using new Hornaday cases, WLR primers:  8.5 gr Trail boss,  6.6 gr Red dot, 7 gr Titegroup, 5.6 gr Unique.

Steve k

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bushranch posted this 24 September 2018

Not sure if the photo shows your actual shooting setup ? I have found best results from my old 94's are to just use a larger soft front bag and while holding the rifle lay the back of your hand on the bag and pull the rifle against your shoulder and shoot it in a "supported off hand" manner. If the curved metal butt is sliding around put some double face tape on in and add a strip of fine sandpaper.  If you have H4895 you could try about 17 grains with above longer bullet . Rus 

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onondaga posted this 24 September 2018

The longer bullet seated to go through the action is very lightly engraved on the nose on chambering the round. 

Steve k,

I'm not talking about the bullet nose at all. If they bear on the ball seat that helps stability but the primary fit is measured on the first exposed driving band or the bullet above the crimp groove that is full bullet diameter. This area should be in significant contact with the chamber and verified by ink and feel compared to a jacketed bullet. You really don't need the nose contact when you have fit correct just ahead of the case end on a band or the fat full diameter area of the bullet before the nose tapers. A slide fit to chamber that takes 1-2 pounds is best for stability BEFORE ignition. You will notice an immediate difference improving accuracy compared to the fit you describe that you have now.

Don't be annoyed that they will take another 1-2 pounds to chamber, think of that as getting it right.

 

Gary

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loophole posted this 24 September 2018

Gary, my post is unclear.  In this rifle the part of the bullet in front of the crimp grove--the cylindrical portion before the ogive which I erroneously called the nose--is slightly greater than grove diameter so the rifling engraves this section very slightly.  This is what I call a proper fit of bullet to the chamber.  The lever shows a slight extra resistance when the round is almost chambered.  This fit is almost universally required for accuracy with a cast bullet because the forward "bore rider" part of the bullet needs support to keep that portion from bending slightly under the impact of ignition.  A rifle often is more accurate with the bullet seated out long enough so the first driving band or the band in front of the crimp grove just touches the rifling when the round is chambered, but I have not seen many bullets that can be loaded out that far and still fit the magazine or action except with single shots. 

My working hypothesis now is that the 1/8 twist of this rifle does not stabilize slow velocity cast bullets.  I will try the faster loads with pb bullets and also some gc loads. The prior owner said the rifle is very accurate with jacketed loads.

Steve k

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onondaga posted this 25 September 2018

You got fit. Next is alloy matching the load pressure and gas checked #2 alloy handles  the same load recommendation as START jacketed loads. Slower powders with a flatter pressure curve are friendliest to cast bullets. Hodgdon Data has START data in 25-35 jacketed  loads for 60-117 gr bullets. If you want velocity anywhere near jacketed loads start there.

The fast powders you are using slam  cast bullets with a sharp pressure peak and that magnifies problems compared to H4895. Typically I would test with 5 shots at H4895 START and 5 shots each at 3% above and 3% below START. You are going to like one of those and you will see a trend. It is well worth it to get certified #2 Alloy, I get mine from Rotometals.

 

Gary

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loophole posted this 25 September 2018

Rus and Gary, you reminded me of something I should have known.  I found out years ago that I have trouble getting decent accuracy using pistol powders in cast rifle loads.  The old Lyman manual listed 30-30, 30-06, 45-70, etc. loads with pistol powders and I never could them to shoot well.  It is not easy to find 25-35 cast loads with rifle powders, but your idea of using Hogden starting jacketed loads with 4895, 4198 and Rl-7, ect and hard gc bullets is excellent.  About 1800-1900 fps.  This is my next line of inquiry.  Thanks.

Rus, the recoil with a 25-35 is so light my benchrest setup seems to me  to work fine.  Even the crecent buttplate  causes no problem (unlike the one on my mod '86)--just hold it on the arm just past the shoulder and fire away

Steve K                           

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onondaga posted this 25 September 2018

Steve, just watch the pressures and always pick the lowest one first for cast rifle loads. Don't be afraid of the velocity from the book START loads, #2 GCd bullets will handle the pressure with the better powder selection. I shoot 2650 with an all up 59 gr 225646 Lyman FNGC with H4895 or AA2230 in .223 and get Just over 1 MOA. I tumble lube once lightly before size/check and twice lightly after S/C with both bullets and Whites 45:45:10 both warmed. I tried the Hodgdon jacketed  60 gr. H 4895 book START load and it clearly went down good with improved accuracy by lowering the charge so I followed down to ~1 MOA at 2650 from a start at just over 2800. I used a chronometer on the first load then charge reduction software in 25 fps increments down for my Ultra Varmint Handi load work That bullet has a short steep nose ogive and a long driving band area that I sized to the recommendation I gave you and seated the bullet to .010" nose engagement to the throat taper.

Gary

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Hornet posted this 26 September 2018

If you're still looking for loading data, the old Lyman #43 (1964) has some suggestions. A lot of their loads work pretty well as starting points. They're not super-high speed but they frequently get you close.

85 grain PB-  7.0 Unique  1660 FPS

(257283)       10.0 2400    1530 FPS

                     10.0 4227    1450 FPS

                      8.0 4759      1375 FPS

                     10.0 4759     1500 FPS

110 Grain GC- 5.0 Unique  1170 FPS

(257325)       10.0 2400      1490 FPS

                      10.0 4227     1400 FPS

                      10.0 4759     1485 FPS

                      14.0 4198     1550 FPS

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Dukem posted this 08 October 2018

Whenever I have a rifle that won't group with cast bullets and the barrel isn't a sewer pipe, I end up going to a fatter bullet. Just an example, 94 carbine, originally chambered in 32-40, reamed for 32 Win. Spl. should work with .321" bullets right? Nada. Key holes, no group, .323" bullets, excellent accuracy. Another, Rossi 44-40 carbine, .428" bullets, 16" group @ 25 yards, .432" bullets, groups just fine. One more, Win. Low Wall 25 w.c.f. #1 weight barrel. .257" bullets, no joy, .259" bullets, minute of squirrel eye ball.

Before I did anything else with your 25-35, (and boy do I like the look of your rifle), I'd try .259" or .260 bullets.

Duke

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