What Constitutes a "High Pressure" Rifle Cartridge?

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  • Last Post 27 February 2023
Bryan Austin posted this 24 February 2023

We are all familiar with "High Power" rifle cartridges. Typically when we mention a high power rifle, the 30-06 might come to mind, or maybe the 30-40 Krag, or a 30-30, or even a 270. We all know these high power rifle cartridges are also loaded to high pressures.

So, what is the minimum pressures are that are considered "High Pressure" high power rifle cartridges?

  • Lower - ??
  • 45-70 - 28,000cup
  • 38-55 - 30,000cup
  • 35 Re - 35,000cup
  • 30-30 - 38,000cup
  • 30-40 - 40,000cup
  • 30-06 - 50,000cup
  • 270 w - 52,000cup
  • Higher - ??

I promise this is not a loaded question but I am working on some stuff and I'd like to know what today's standards are.

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Boschloper posted this 24 February 2023

The SIG 6.8X51 for the NGSW program is loaded to 80,000 psi.

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Bryan Austin posted this 24 February 2023

Thanks but I am not looking for the highest pressure, just a starting number for what is considered high. I just don't know how to ask the question correctly.

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RicinYakima posted this 24 February 2023

It depends upon how old you are. Growing up in the 1950's, anything over 30/40 was high pressure. From 1970 on, anything over the 270 Winchester was high pressure. 

Until there is some advance in cartridge brass, I think the 52,000 CUP is going to be the top "standard" pressure. Above is going to be High Pressure. 

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JeffinNZ posted this 24 February 2023

Which decade are you referring to?  1890, 20K would be high pressure.  1960 60K would be high pressure.  

Cheers from New Zealand

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 February 2023

probably that sliding scale we hear about ...

driving in the mountains ... my  ears pop painfully when the pressure drops from high pressure to low pressure ... about 2 psi difference ... 

does that help ?...

ken ... who had a rimfire 22 blow up ... that 12000 psi seemed high at the time ...

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Bryan Austin posted this 24 February 2023

It depends upon how old you are. Growing up in the 1950's, anything over 30/40 was high pressure. From 1970 on, anything over the 270 Winchester was high pressure. 

Until there is some advance in cartridge brass, I think the 52,000 CUP is going to be the top "standard" pressure. Above is going to be High Pressure. 

I was kinda figuring something like what you guys said....and is why I was trying to figure out how better to ask the question, narrow it down. I guess it is subjective and the best way may be to divide it up into age groups.

So I guess in general, back in 1892 when the 30-40 Krag came out, it was THE high-powered rifle at the time with pressures being around 40,000cup. I notice in articles from that timeframe that the 30-30 was also referred to as a high powered rifle. I am beginning to think that all non-black powder rifles were high-power rifles in addition to high-pressure rifles.

 

As late as November 1921 I saw this;

Snip from,

 

Forest & Stream

 

November, 1921

SELECTING THE PROPER RIFLE

SOME VALUABLE SUGGESTIONS FOR CHOOSING A WEAPON THAT IS BEST SUITED FOR THE TYPE OF GAME THE SPORTSMAN IS GOING TO HUNT

By A L BRAGG 

 

The passing of the old big-bore, black powder rifles have left in their wake three distinct classes of guns: smokeless powder rifles, black-powder rifles, and those adapted to either high-velocity smokeless or black-powder loads. This classification should be taken into consideration before attempting to choose a rifle. High-power rifles, like the 250-3,000 30-30 and 30 Government are intended for smokeless powders only and black or semi smokeless powders cannot be used in them with any degree of success. These rifles have very rapid twists, a majority of them giving a bullet a complete turn in every ten inches as it passes through the barrel. Rifles having smokeless steel barrels and a comparatively slow twist of rifling such as the 32 Special and some of the 32-40 and 38-55 calibers, are equally adapted to black, semi-smokeless, low-power smokeless or high-velocity cartridges. The twist rifling in the guns of this class range from one turn in sixteen to one turn twenty inches. 

 

All rifles not having smokeless barrels belong to the black-powder class, and in such guns a high-velocity cannot be used with safety. However, low-power smokeless-powder cartridges that give a slightly increased velocity over black powder loads can be used with good results. The black-powder rifles of today are the survivors of a once great class of black rifles ranging from big bulky cartridges like the 38-90-217, 40-110-260, 45-125-500, 50-100-450, etc. down to the 22 caliber cartridges The twist of rifling in a majority of these guns was comparatively gentle some only having one in sixty inches.

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RicinYakima posted this 24 February 2023

I would suggest you find a copy of J. R. Mattern book Handloading Ammunition, published in 1926 to get a perspective of what you are seeking. Get a real book, not some maybe accurate internet thing. 

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Aaron posted this 24 February 2023

As in years past, and to the continued frustration of the modern reader, the definition of A or B is in the description and opinion of the author. What is "Big Bore" or "High Velocity" or "Acceptable Accuracy" among others? Due to no standardization agency for adjective usage, any word can be used to describe a set of cartridges as meeting criteria for the scope of the immediate story or paper.

SAAMI does not describe or define "Big Bore", "Loud", or as we have bantered about previously, "Rifle Cartridge" or "Pistol Cartridge". These and other terms used are at the discretion of the author, the manufacturer, or the "expert" reviewer.

We can point out a range of velocities per time period and categorize them into separate classifications like "slow", "medium", and "high." We can do the same with pressures. We can demonstrate how both velocity and pressure change over the course of time and the classification scale has shifted and/or grown in length. Some cartridges will jump from one class into another as the scale gets modernized. Classification categories and classes are period sensitive. That we can agree upon for sure.

Since there is no regulatory or other recognized authority defining the pressure spectrum, it is incumbent on the author, you in this case, to define the pressure spectrum. It will be whatever you decide it is for your paper. We can either agree or disagree with your findings. Since I have no desire to tackle a pressure spectrum with definitions and classifications, I choose to accept your analysis when you publish - unless of course, your analysis is way out of the ball park. smile

Please however drop CUP as a descriptive standard. The English dropped "stone" so we can drop "CUP." Both are obsolete terms with the invention of scales and pressure transducers.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Bryan Austin posted this 24 February 2023

Thanks guys, that gives me some insight

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Bryan Austin posted this 24 February 2023

I would suggest you find a copy of J. R. Mattern book Handloading Ammunition, published in 1926 to get a perspective of what you are seeking. Get a real book, not some maybe accurate internet thing. 

 

I've seen some other old articles mention his name and that book. 

Also...lol, I found a "44-40 Short Colt".....just funny how we can interpret text if we want to.

at from one half a cent to 192 cents apiece A reloading tool that will decap and recap your cases and resize case necks to hold the bullets tightly seat the bullet in the case and crimp will cost about 11.00 for the short shells like the 44 40 and the revolver sizes about 50 cents more for the long like the 30-30 The cost for equipment is so low it needn t deter anyone 

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Larry Gibson posted this 24 February 2023

Bryan

 

Having measured the pressures of thousands of cartridges over the last 14 years I would proffer there is no general definition of what is a "high pressure rifle cartridge".  However, I do believe there are cartridge specific definitions of pressure.  For a rifle cartridge such as the 45-70 there are 3 classes of pressure; low pressure/Trapdoor level, medium pressure/lever action level and high pressure/bolt action or SS level.  In the 44-40 for use in rifles there are 2 considered levels of pressure Low/level I and high/level II.  These are historically referred to as "standard" velocity and "high" velocity. 

There are numerous other examples.  Also, with rifle cartridges there are +P, Extreme, etc. designations for many.  These are generally loaded to SAAMI MAP level [keep in mind very few factory cartridges are actually loaded to SAAMI MAP specs] or a bit higher. I would consider those as "high" pressure cartridges.  Then there are the magnum level cartridges which are most often loaded to 60,000+ psi.  Those I would definitely consider to be "high" pressure cartridges.  US military loading of M855 (GT 5.56) and M118SB/LR loadings also fall into the "high" pressure category as they often exceed 62,000 psi.  

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Bryan Austin posted this 24 February 2023

 Thanks Larry, you are dead on, kind of the response I was looking for related to modern definitions and is why I asked the question..."language" is important...of which I greatly lack...just couldn't' figure out how to ask it.

As one can see there are different definitions for different uses/applications etc. from long ago even so different from today. What is interesting is what is said about the 44-40 loads. As I do agree in today's understanding...however...that was not the case back in the early 1900's, when the ".44-40 W.H.V" was introduced. During it's introduction in 1903, it was labeled a High Velocity, Low Pressure cartridge right on the box, thus designated by Winchester as a low pressure cartridge (18,000cup). True was the same with other cartridges as well. Directly related, and from old articles.....many called the 44-40 normal loads "low velocity" in comparison with the new high velocity loads. Low velocity being 13,000cup and high-velocity, low-pressure being 18,000cup. 

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Bryan Austin posted this 24 February 2023

Also RicinYakima, some of these dependable authors are in these old magazines.

Changing The Tune of the 35 Rimless, by J. R.  Mattern, Nov 15, 1919

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Lee Guthrie posted this 24 February 2023

Thinking about 28 Nosler, .454 Casull, .460 S&W.  Would definitely be over 60,000

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Bryan Austin posted this 24 February 2023

Would it be fair to include the "high-power" hunting rifles we all heard about and had as kids....30-06, 270..etc?

Even the 30-40 Krag was called a high-power rifle (40,000cup) when it was the cat's-meow in 1893....soon followed by civilian types in the Model 1895?.

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Larry Gibson posted this 24 February 2023

I think we should distinguish between, and therefore the difference of, "High pressure" and "high powered".  The two are not really the same.  To some the 44 Magnum may be a "high powered" cartridge compared to the 357 Magnum because it simply recoils more and has more bullet energy.  Yet both cartridges are loaded to basically the same levels of pressure.  

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Bryan Austin posted this 25 February 2023

To continue in trying to learn the "Language" of the day, I was digging a bit again into the Winchester WHV loads. Winchester claims they used a low-pressure rifle powder (Sharpshooter for the 44-40). Winchester was good at keeping the pressures "low". So we ask, what defines a "low" pressure in their words.

As I mentioned the 44-40 WHV loads produced what they called a low-pressure at 18,000cup. They also manufactured the 38-55 WHV low-pressure load and is listed as 28,000cup. The 45-70 Trapdoor is 18,000cup and the lever-actions up to 28,000cup and we all consider that a low pressure load in comparison with the higher Ruger types of 40,000cup.

So it seems safe to say that a "high-pressure" rifle cartridge would be at least 38,000cup which was the 30-30 (1894) and was often called such in older magazines/articles. The 30-40 Krag (1892) would certainly be a high pressure cartridge at 40,000cup.

It also seems safe to say that a "high-power rifle" back in the day would be one that has a caliber of at least .30" and a velocity of at least 2,000fps. Certainly not exactly what we called "high-power rifles" of the 1980's like we hunted with, which would be the 30-06, 308 and 270 types with much higher velocities and even higher pressures with today's evil black rifles!.

Boy how time flies!

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Bryan Austin posted this 25 February 2023

Which of the following are High-Power rifles?

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Bryan Austin posted this 27 February 2023

I would suggest you find a copy of J. R. Mattern book Handloading Ammunition, published in 1926 to get a perspective of what you are seeking. Get a real book, not some maybe accurate internet thing. 

 

Who was it a few years ago sent me some information? Was it you? I posted it on the website here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/ballistics-handloading/j-r-mattern-published-in-1926

 

...as well as purchased a book

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RicinYakima posted this 27 February 2023

Yes.

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