I've decided to give H110 a try in my 357 magnum loads. While looking at load data in my copy of Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition I noticed something odd about the load data. The listed maximum loads for H110 and IMR-4227 for the 160gr bullet (358311 round nose plain base) are 16.5 and 17.0 grains respectively. This is significantly higher than the maximum loads listed for both of these powders for the 158gr (358665 flatnose plain base) or 170gr (358429 Kieth SWC plain base) bullets even though the listed pressures are very similar. Generally a heavier bullet uses slightly less powder to achieve a similar pressure. Why would the 160gr bullet have a listed load so different from those of the neighboring weight bullets? Should I be wary of this data?
Unsure about published load data
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The powder charge variances are likely due to differences in bullet styles, seating depths, and bearing surfaces.
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Lyman data is good, provided your loads are made with the same components, brass, primers, etc..
And that includes bullet alloy as well.
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As lotech points out, there are a bunch of variables among bullets. There is significant difference between cast lead bullets and jacketed bullets with regard to barrel friction. You should see a pretty good variance in powder charges between bullets of the same weight in cast or jacketed design. I would suggest trusting the data since we do not know what variables are in play with the mfg. load data.
It is interesting though....
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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In the early 1980’s, when handgun silhouette was extremely popular, Hornady had a small pamphlet with loadings for many of the popular silhouette rounds. Only iron sights were allowed at that time. The title was Silhouette Loading Data. There are (22) chamberings listed. Of that there are (6) listings, based on bullet weight, for the .357 Mag. H110 is included in every section.
Here is an overview of what is listed for jacketed bullets only in .357.
158 grain 12.1 to 16.5 grains of H110 velocity range of 1000 to 1250 S&W Model 27 8 3/8”
160 grain 18.2 to 20.6 grains of H100 velocity range of 1350 to 1600 Ruger Super Blackhawk 10 ½”
180 grain 10.4 to 13.1 grains of H110 velocity range of 800 to 1000 S&W Model 27 8 3/8”
180 grain 16.6 to 19.0 grains of H110 velocity range of 1250 to 1500 Ruger Super Blackhawk 10 ½”
Two lighter bullet weights not included above.
A lot of the shooters that I shot with in those 1980’s matches hard strong confidence in the Hornady data. However, the use of cast bullets during those years was not near as popular as jacketed bullets. The use of 180-grain bullets gained popularity with the use of break open TC Contender pistols.
FWIW
Tom
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As already noted, charges for cast and jacketed will differ, and charges for the same weight of cast but different design may also differ. I have no experience of pistol loads, but do have some rifle data.
My experience of .30-30 with LeverEvolution powder is that my bullets require about 2 gns less powder for the same velocity compared to Larry Gibson's loads for #311041.
The bullets are definitely different. I size down #321297HP to .312", bullet length is 1.025" versus 1.008 for #311041, bearing length is .700" versus .566", diameter is .312" versus .310" and neck clearance is minimal.
Edit: Bullet weights almost identical.
COL at 2.500" is also a bit less than for Larry's loads.
Cases are similar weight (Winchester vs PMC). but primers different (Federal vs Winchester).
My alloy is harder, but limited testing suggests not much effect from that in this instance.
Barrel length is the same at 24".
This rifle produces spot on velocities with Hodgdon data and jacketed bullets, so I'm confident that with the cast bullets I'm looking at bullet and loading differences. I suspect that the main influence is bearing length.
There's definitely more to it than just bullet weight.
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As already noted, charges for cast and jacketed will differ, and charges for the same weight of cast but different design may also differ.
My experience of .30-30 with LeverEvolution powder is that my bullets require about 2 gns less powder for the same velocity compared to Larry Gibson's loads for #311041.
The bullets are definitely different. I size down #321297HP to .312", bullet length is 1.025" versus 1.008 for #311041, bearing length is .700" versus .566", diameter is .312" versus .310" and neck clearance is minimal.
COL at 2.500" is also a bit less than for Larry's loads.
Cases are similar weight (Winchester vs PMC). but primers different (Federal vs Winchester).
My alloy is harder, but limited testing suggests not much effect from that in this instance.
Barrel length is the same at 24".
This rifle produces spot on velocities with Hodgdon data and jacketed bullets, so I'm confident that with the cast bullets I'm looking at bullet and loading differences.
There's definitely more to it than just bullet weight.
I don't doubt one bit your loads were different then LG's.
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Why is the data different? It is not unusual to see contradictory data like this. Should you trust this data? Personally, I would check all other available sources with particular notice of the manufactureres data. You are already partly doing that by asking us. I can tell you for sure that Lyman's reloading manual 45 has bad data, and must be carefully cross checked.
If I am doing something that may be questionable pressure wise, I get my Ruger SA's out and watch for signs of pressure before loading it in less sturdy guns.
Of course the first commandemnt of reloading applies, start low and work up watching for anything amiss.
Dale M. Lock
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I will check other sources and see what the recommendations are for similar bullets.
I am loading an RCBS 38-158-SWC gas checked bullet. Checked and lubed they weigh in at 162 gr. I'll see what I can find for a bullet more like that description.
I'll also take a closer look at seating depth and make sure the powder space in my cartridges is equivalent.
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I remember back during the pandemic I purchased some Hodgden CFE powder. I always read start with lowest recommended load when reloading. So I started low and the first shot locked my 308 bolt down. Just a bad lot of powder that passed quality control I suppose.
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I will check other sources and see what the recommendations are for similar bullets. I am loading an RCBS 38-158-SWC gas checked bullet. Checked and lubed they weigh in at 162 gr. I'll see what I can find for a bullet more like that description. I'll also take a closer look at seating depth and make sure the powder space in my cartridges is equivalent.
You know another thing that can raise pressure and cause different results then the what the loading manual said is a tighter bore and groove. Shooting Times just recently in their latest edition just come out with an article called Same Barrels, Different Bullets. It was all about 35 caliber bullets and bore/groove dimentions between the 380, 9mm, 38 Special, and 357 magnum. Everything inbetween too! Here's a chart of different 357 magnum revolver models and makes to give you an idea.
I knew of this many many years ago and has always heard the Colt Python had a very tight bore and groove. You can see that some of them are 9mm specifications. This could certainly raise your pressure if you have a really tight bore and groove and are shooting a hard alloy that has been sized to a much larger diameter.
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I have Lyman Cast 4 have never had any issues with there data they test it thoroughly. But as others have stated components could give you some variation I never fret to much about it.
Fred Honeyager
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Several thoughts from over the years:
- Checking several different manuals while reading the test equipment listing when experimenting with new loads.
- Starting low and working up in warm weather - Many years ago I learned the hard way that summer 90+ degree weather with hot loads developed in the early Spring will stick cases.
- Each firearm is an individual experiment. There may be commonality in powder and primer selection, but with the individual firearm the exact powder charge may vary.
- If I want more power than factory equivalent loads, I'll get a larger cartridge.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Just to reinforce what RicinYacama said, In The NRA Reloaders Guide 1969 (yes in those days the NRA did things like that and now that we're rid of LaPierre maybe we will again) ,They had pressure tests run with 10 different 150 grain bullets in the 30--_06.Everything was the same except the bullets . Pressures ran from 51,900 to 44,500. The military M-2 had the lowest pressure.
beagle6
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Several years ago Ballistics Products compared shot shell loads where the only difference was the brand of 209 primer and a safe load with one primer was over pressure with a different primer.
This and the results @beagle6 mentions from the NRA is exactly why starting low and working up is the smart way to do it.
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I always start out on the low side and work my way up. I find that referencing three to four different manuals is good practice. I've never used a maximum load in anything I've reloaded and I've been loading for 52 years.
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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