Anyone use Steve's Pages (https://stevespages.com) for load recommendations? I'm looking for loads for 357 magnum with a 125, 140 and 158 grain cast lead (Lee molds) bullets using Titegroup (yes, i do understand that double charges are a no-no). I have Lee Pro 100 and the Lee dies for 357. Years ago I reloaded 9mm with Titegroup and it worked well for me. I am Powder Coating the bullets then resizing. Looking at Steve's loads against Hodgdons and the Lee Modern Reloading Manual, second edition, 2021, the loads are all over the place. I'll be shooting these in my Rossi R92 357 20". Where should the smallest starting load start from, Steve's, Hodgdons or the Lee book. Thanks for any suggestions, if I didn't mention anything pertinent, please ask.
Steve's Pages
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The safest bet is always to go by the powder manufacturers' manual or one by a reputable firm like Lee, Speer, etc..
That said here is some pretty safe .357 mag data to start with:
158 - 4.3 gr
140 - 5.1 gr
125 - 6.0 gr
David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .
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Cool. Thank you! Going to make a few with those and shoot them soon as I get a chance. I have a chrono so I will take notes and report back. And thank you for your service!
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Yes on using Steve's pages.... have so for years.
Not however as any sort of "absolute",more of a convenience when looking for data to back up typical manuals. I will say Steve's "usually" has a much broader list of powders. Is it without fault? Heck no, but as long as you're cross checking several sources I've found it a VG resource,and in a lot of ways much easier access than other online sites.
Good luck with your loading/shooting.
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While the internet is quite useful in our pursuit of information about our hobby, use of anything but VETTED load data from propellant manufacturers is fraught with danger to me. I (and you) are of an older generation where paper manuals were printed with load data and that data was golden.
Anyone can place anything online now and just because Joe Normal says it works, doesn't mean Joe Normal has a chemistry or engineering degree with access to ballistic testing methodology and equipment. I am being a sissy? Nope. I recognize thin ice when I see it and am well aware of the Darwinian principle of life and death. Over my 6 decades on this planet, I have seen Joe Normal lose appendages on the firing line because Joe Normal thought themselves wiser than professional ballistic engineers with proper tools.
I took a look at Steve's Pages and my impression is that Steve considers himself an expert on many many things. My alarm bells went off and I could hear Captain Kirk screaming "Shields Up!" While the data there may be safe to use, I will default to using published mfg data or mfg data available online like the Hodgdon web site loading data.
With anti-shooting and anti-gun militants all over the place now, I am doubly hesitant about parking my laptop or iPhone in unknown parking lots, especially ones that take delight in letting you know your browser, browser version, platform operating software and version, and then all the other stuff his cookies have stripped. As an IT pro, I assume your eye saw all this data gathering and reflection from Steve's page?
I would, as you did, ask some load questions here and use the data provided from the gray beards on here if they provide it. I would feel a lot safer with David's data than any data from an unknown internet source. I know I sound paranoid or something but I have seen a lot of blood spilled on the firing line by "experts" who handloaded their own ammunition. I still have all my appendages and eyes so I'll just keep clucking away with my vetted load data.
6 decades of rules:
- load data is NOT linear, it is a logarithm
- there are sound reasons for propellant classifications like "shotgun" "rifle" "handgun"
- use of the words "should work" can cost you a finger
- delving into the presumed "safety zone" of load data displays gross ignorance of internal ballistics and may present to you a phenomena named "detonation."
- every time you pull the trigger on a handload, you become a beta tester. You better hope your load data is not provided by another beta developer.
Years ago while developing load data for the 411-JDJ with heavier cast bullets, I became witness to what we all fear. My developed data was sound and developed with modern development software. My understanding of the ballistic parameters for this cartridge was sound. Ultimately I was looking at the data and thinking to myself "this should work." Two thirds of the way up the developed data, I pulled the trigger and got a velocity reading off the expected chart. My hand was still stinging when I thought "something isn't right." Fortunately my Contender and barrel survived but clearly, something did not go as planned. So even with good development tools, good instinct, and good intentions, I almost left red stuff on the firing line. Load development is dangerous and one should be ready to lose a firearm in the process.
Hit the book stores and get load manuals. Used book stores are a good resource of the older manuals. Build your bibliography and use that vetted material. Be wary of the older manuals from the beginning of the 20th century and use their data with caution since propellants have perhaps changed over the years. And.....as much as I like Elmer Keith, he sure was one of those "hold my beer" kind of guys.
Heck, perhaps the AI systems are generating the load data now on web pages with ChatGPT trying to "Exterminate......Exterminate" the human race and impose Skynet on us.
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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Good rant Aaron.
What you warn against does happen. A few years ago a popular source, at the time, for loads had what loose like hot 357 loads that had apparently migrated in under the 38 special listed loads. It was bad enough that I felt obliged to warn about it on this forum and in the Fouling Shot. The source disappeared shortly thereafter.
John
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Aaron,
During your load development, where was the error? Was it in the software, the input or something different?
David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .
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Aaron,
During your load development, where was the error? Was it in the software, the input or something different?
No error actually. Performance did not track with expectation and near the top, it went into warp speed. I can send you the data as an image if you wish. I hesitate to post it here but it is a great learning tool.
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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I cleaned this up and removed the propellant information so I could post it here as an example.
The data to the left in white is the expected pressure and velocity with the listed weight of propellant. The red line is the pressure ceiling of the T/C Contender family of frames. On the right in the blue is the charge weight that generated the velocity to its left.
You can see that 40gr should have given 1728fps at about 36K psi BUT instead I had 1904fps at about 49K psi of chamber pressure. Instead of the incremental increase in pressure/velocity, I actually had high/steady pressure/velocity and then WHAM - off to the moon. Now new loaders can see why manufacturers say "don't start near the top but instead reduce by 10% and work upwards."
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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Steve's Pages owner is more than a bit cautious. we played phone tag for several days. Finally connected and he said his entire process was broken now as we didn't connect right away. He's paranoid and a bit of a nut case. He refused to let me subscribe and hung up on me...twice!
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Glad I had seconds thought on a subscription. It was too much just to get load data for 2 different calibers.
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I thought he died a couple years ago. I also thought it was his wife or maybe someone else that was running it now.
I know all the data he had up was from all books combined. He found the highest charge and the lowest charge and that was it for each powder and bullet weight.
https://stevespages.com/page8a.htm this one right?
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Yes, Steve did pass away a few years ago. The site is now honcho'd by a gay named Chris. Paranoid, yes but IMHO has every right to be. He is a retired computer pro & right after he took over, the site was attacked by hackers in other countries trying to download the entire site & have kept trying ever since??? Just passing on what I was told. A lot of loads on there seem to be, & some actually are hot, some, very hot. The old sayings are valid, Start low & work up, verify with powder mfg & established manuals, Take nothing from the internet as gospel... In 58 years of casting & loading the old rules have served me well..
A day late & a dollar short, story of my life ???
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Copy Paste works every time, not sure what the big deal is, all gest copied by somebody somewhere.
44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40
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