What rifles do they use at the matches? Are scopes allowed,front bipods,etc. I want to come to ones of the matches. I'm in north east pa. Can off the shelf rifles be used. Are they timed? Ok,I guess that's enough questions for now.. thanks john
Rifles for match shooting
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There are 2 ways to be unclassified. Not being a CBA or affiliated member or using something that just doesn't fit a classification. That's why I enjoy seeing a Sharps show up in unclassified every so often. Someday I will drag out my 1889 Danish Krag to the line. That should be military issue except someone rebarreled it to 45-70 and put mod irons on it. My siamese mauser has been set up the same way. A Hawkeye match at the end of last year had the match director encourage everyone to bring out something that they never shoot or was unclassified. Great idea to break up the same old, same old.
I correct myself that the total fired shots be the same as our conventional and military. Twenty rounds at both distance a total of forty for record. This doesn’t interfere with a regular match and it is at match directors okay. Bench available basis. Every club would be doing the same thing so the results of would make sense.
@shootcast the way Spokane Rifle Club does it is they leave it up to the entrant on what target and they only use the CBA targets and designated military target at 100 yards. Course of fire is the same regardless based on target. 4x5 group, 2x10 group, CBA 4x5 score, military 2x10 score. They have done this several times, twice that I am aware of for lever action and once for AR style. I would surmise that most other match directors would do something similar. Anything else would be a disruption to the flow of a match. Spokane also often has both conventional and military shooters at each match. When it comes to score more time (5 minutes) is given to the military shooters.
I do not agree that we need to standardize unclassified. The aim is for shooter recruitment in an enjoyable and low cost manner.
My suggestion is to use the military targets in use now. But only the center section of the mr 52 at 200 yards. This would allow a shooter to compete with either scope or open sights designated by equipment used on sign up sheet. Follow either or standard times as Conventional shoots or military shoots. Forty rounds at each distance. The match director and or scorer decides and records actual score of competitor. We list these scores for publication along with the other classes of competition both in the FS and on the website. Some folks aren’t interested in the NT. These unclassified shooters are local club shooters. Not a event that goes past this.
The only divide, in my opinion, is scope sighted or iron sighted. And the target used, of course.
If we would come to some agreement on unclassified class it would be a beginning. Since this is a anything goes shoot there is no logic behind it. Standardized targets and time frames used throughout all clubs would be the beginning. Firearms that actually don’t fit a class or shooters who choose to shoot there could see what others are doing with similar firearms. Then if we advertise this unclassified class and the procedure of fire on our website we just might get new shooters. It also over time would show if there is any advantage or disadvantage shooting in a particular class.
The hardest thing about match shooting is deciding which rifle I am going to shoot. I try my best with each and seldom get the momentary bragging rights. It is interesting to me that there is such a difference in the national records between the three top classes. Heavy seems to have the best results overall but plain base and unlimited are a bit apart and by definition a plain base rifle is unlimited with the exception that plain base bullet must be used. Those reasons seem to me to justify those three distinct separate classes. Any of the three will sure require a moving backer at this point to set a new record. Hunter Rifle on the other hand makes sense too. A lightweight mass produced rifle but with no limits as to scope magnification. This class in my opinion will see a number of records in the next few years. It also is a relatively inexpensive class to start in. It just would not be fair to allow folks with custom chambered and aftermarket barrels to compete against them.
As John Alexander has mentioned we have an unclassified rule as well. Some of our match directors have fun shoots as well. Call one and discuss what you have to shoot. If there is space available I am sure you will be included and hope you have a great time.
+1 on what Lucky 1 said. Our best CBA match shooters fall over themselves to help ANYONE. This is the inverse of how quite a few NRA Bullseye shooters behave like. They guard their cherished X grains of Bullseye in their 1911 .45’s from any peering eyes. May not be the same in your area.
But there is quite an age difference between the two groups of shooters.
What most people don't realize, is that most of the 'top dogs' are generous and helpful people that will gladly work with you to improve. Even at the risk of their not being 'top dogs' in the future. If you're willing to ask questions and listen to good advice, you can learn a tremendous amount. This is what makes CBA competition so interesting to me.
I’ll take a slightly different look at the words “compete and do well”.
Within a given rifle category (“class&rdquo, despite the rifles being supposedly similar, there are a lot of variables. These variables are the handloading efforts of each individual shooter’s ammunition. Did our shooter select the correct cast bullet diameter and it’s fit in the rifle’s chamber, were the optimum primer and powder/charge weight selcted? How about the rests and bench set-up? It’s a lengthy list.
But then there is even the larger variable….our shooter! How is his bench technique, wind reading ability, use if time, etc.? How is his mental attitude and health the day of the match?
These are all things that vary from shooter to shooter. There may be similarities considering the guns in the category but that’s where the similarities stop. Because of the variables introduced by each shooter engaged in the match, it becomes difficult to say all things are equal. The shooter who handles the non gun variables is the shooter who excels.
For some of us it is important to compare our results to the results of other shooters. And for other shooters they see themselves only as “competing” against themselves. They strive to compare their results today to previous results and ask themselves if they just “did well” in today’s match? For some shooters this is their evaluation process. There is nothing wrong with demonstrating to yourself that you did well, by comparing your most recent results with previous results, despite not winning the gun category.
Yes, the accolades of being the match’s top dog are nice, it’s a nice feeling. But within a given gun category there is only one “winner” and the rest of us are also rans. How we adjust and look for areas of improvement in our performance and sucessfully apply them at the next match, while the most recent top dog might not examine his most recent results looking for ways to improve, could determine if we will be the next “top dog”.
The mountain rifle as Ed proposed years back I also agree with. Many cast shooters build a rifle off factory actions. There basically production rifles with aftermarket barrels , triggers and stocks. Not what I would call a heavy class rifle. Looking at the results from the past 40+ years of National Tournament shooting might put some perspective to it. This mountain class that Ed wanted is short of heavy class. No one to my knowledge has ever won heavy class with such a rifle. Yet many shooters try. Our classes aren’t the fairest for competition. As you say just shoot the match and have fun. But what chance do you have to actually compete. Shooters especially new shooters want to feel they have a chance of doing well. No there isn’t a pink Caddy waiting for you. Last place pays the same as first. It if we insist on calling it a competition then we should strive for better firearm placement. We need a way to put more firearms into use. Then we might get more shooters. Especially new shooters.
Competition? Not really. I hosted our first CBA match in 1999 and have had 3-4 matches per season ever since. You see lots of different guns, loads, mindsets, etc. There is an entertainment factor there that is difficult to quantify.
If there is a constant to these gatherings, it is the following…
There is as much time spent discussing guns, loads, bullet casting, gun categories, wind reading, etc. as actually shooting. This is as much a social experience as a shooting experience.
I would estimate that the average shooter uses 60-70 rounds. There is only 100-yards being used at our range. We shoot (20) rounds for score and (20) rounds for either (2) 10-round groups or (4) 5-round groups. Quite a few rounds are used during the warm-up before the match starts and during the match, you can shoot as many sighters as you like on a separate target, next to the record target.
This year we might be having an informal ,22 rifle 100-yard match before the start of the CBA match. Just want to expand the total experience a bit, injecting another piece of “fun” for the guys.
And as John noted….there isn’t a pink Cadillac in the parking lot for the winner. With several gun categories being involved, there is not a literal overall winner. You might “win” your gun category but that’s just for “bragging rights”. (For our Annual Regional we do have a way to identify a “winner” of the traveling trophy.)
I understand the type of rifle I have seen several similar rifles and some are works of art. You are lucky to have it.
If you and I were having a casual rifle match I would agree that it is comparable to rifles in our hunting rifle class and would be happy to compete with you and feel you had no equipment advantage.
However, if you were shooting a Ruger #1 with a 5 pound trigger would you be OK to shoot against double set triggers? Not everybody would.
I just don't know how to write a set of fair rules of reasonable complexity so that our 25 Match Directors could evaluate your rifle, and all the other that might show, and maybe say the 4X scope compensated for the trigger etc. etc.
Ken is right if you would like to come and shoot. Why not just do it and have a good time. You can't get rich at it anyway.
I guess I should have been more clear when I said "custom" rifle. The Borchardt Hornet definately is of course as Sharps never chambered this caliber. The Mauser 7x57 however has the usual generous chamber with very long throat for the 175gr. military round. It does have double set triggers, however the thin forend and Zeiss Zielvier 4x with pointed vertical post and the two heavy side bars shouldn't be a cause for concern as far as bench rest acuracy. It was built by Henrich Scherping and so engraved on full length barrel rib. I have no idea of how many such rifles were made. Given this new information, does this change rifles status? Thanks!
There are many of us who would like to shoot (compete) more, but simply can not afford to do so. - The cost of travel, lodging, meals, reloading components, equipment, etc. is skyrocketing and I do not see any relief for 2023. Going to Clark Rifles from the Seattle area for a Saturday match is almost $100.00 for the gasoline plus entry fees and meals. Even with a major change in office holders in 2024, the prices will not go back to the 2020 level.
WA has just raised gasoline prices with a "carbon tax" not a "gas tax" that now makes regular $409.9 a gallon. - The Indian tribes are selling gasoline the cheapest, I fill up my pickup there. It fortunately has a 36 gallon tank which covers the round trip to Clark Rifles. This once a month trip has become a major budget cost factor.
A Motel 6 is now $99 a night. - Signing up for the free nights stay every seventh stop is no longer feasible. I can no longer afford the first six nights to get the freebie.
The three ranges in my state are 180, 220 and 265 miles from my house each way, and no close Motel 6's. - Yes, the Seattle area is jumping motel, hotel, restaurant and gas prices twenty to fifty percent. A match in Spokane or Hamilton, MT is now a major budget item. I'd offer my spare bedroom for anyone traveling to a Paul Bunyan match, however this offer includes a drive to a range that is 82 miles away and also a major cost for time and gas just to drive.
I simply no longer afford to travel to matches to shoot. - I understand the feeling. My thought when I retired was to travel to see the country and shoot matches. Cancer interrupted these plans, but the cancer is now on the wane. My home range in Illinois, Windhill, is now a major investment to get there and shoot.
We are all feeling the pain.
I am thinking of going back to work part-time once the cancer is fully in remission.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
We now have nine classes and attract about 50 shooters on a good National Tournament year and maybe 20 max to a Regional. I think you can see the problem.
I understand the problem. Also there are many of us who would like to shoot more but simple can not afford to do so. WA has just raised gasoline prices with a "carbon tax" not a "gas tax" that now makes regular $409.9 a gallon. A Motel 6 is now $99 a night. The three ranges in my state are 180, 220 and 265 miles from my house each way, and no close Motel 6's. I simply no longer afford to travel to matches to shoot.
nothing wrong with shooting a rifle in a " higher " class ...
after all ... we really are competing against ourselves ... improving our technique and perhaps equipment as we go along ...
shooting in a official match and having out targets scored keeps us from fibbing to ourselves as to our progress ...
i took a stock 10-22 and Federal bulk ammo to my first ever regional ARA match against Time Precision, Anshutz, 40X ... ...had a ball !! ... entertained not only myself but all the other shooters ...made friends forever and got to look over some great equipment for future reference ...
ken, who after 60 years of competing .. can only advise
.... " define Winning " ...
Ed Doonan advocated a "Mountain Rifle" class. Spend as much as you want on a custom rifle with a weight limit of 9 pounds with scope.
Dave Federline is unrelenting in advocating classes for break opens, levers, pumps, and autos.
We now have nine classes and attract about 50 shooters on a good National Tournament year and maybe 20 max to a Regional. I think you can see the problem.
I always thought a "vintage" iron sight class would work well.
As far as I can tell, you could shoot those in the "plain base" class.
You are correct neither of the rifles you mention are production rifles.
The logic is that if you want to encourage shooters with production guns to come to our matches and shoot, and have a fair chance, you cannot allow custom rifles in that class.
Think about it. Would you be willing to compete with an out of the box factory rifle against others with $400 barrels and benchrest quality chamber jobs?
I'm sorry, but we don't know how to write rules that will satisfy everyone for every conceivable type of rifle.
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