Problem chronographing a blow back operated rifle (Winchester Model 1905)

  • 620 Views
  • Last Post 07 November 2021
GregT posted this 20 October 2021

After four years of fiddling around with this rifle, I finally got the for-end repaired and strengthened and have proceeded to start reloading for it. Not much data around, but I did find recommendations for SR4759, Unique, 2400, and IMR4227. I'm using a 180 grain bullet out of an Accurate Arms mold. Drops WW bullet at .3525". Bore is .351". I'm using my own 50/50 lube but I also have my lube sizer filled with SPG.

I chronograph 10 rounds of each powder type I use to make sure I am not breaking the velocity limits for this blow-back operated rifle which seems to be around 1400 fps with a 180 grain cast bullet. I finally broke 1,017 fps this afternoon using IMR 4227 powder. Average fps for 6 rounds was 966 fps. With all four of the powders I have tried, Extreme Spread was quite high. For this load, it was 118. I weigh each powder charge which I drop from a Belding and Mull Visible powder measure. I am using a .38 Special cartridge case that I reduce the rim diameter on. I have not shot the rifle for accuracy yet. The bore is like new. Mechanically the rifle is like new. (the for-end was abused). It has two "Life Saver" shaped buffers (looks like compressed fiber of some kind, almost a plastic look too them) that keep the metal recoiling parts from impacting steel on steel. Those buffers are like new, and I have 6 replacements if I need them. The bolt and its long counter-weight is not locked, but kept shut and regulated to open by very strong recoil/return springs. I'm beginning to think that there is no such thing as an "extreme spread" number due to the irregular opening and closing of this blow back system. This situation has occurred with any loading I have tried so far. Never chronographed a blow-back operated rifle before as they are quite uncommon. Any suggestions? Thanks for your input.

Greg T

Hayward, Wi.

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
MP1886 posted this 07 November 2021

Greg you might research what modern semi and full automatics use for recoil buffers/washers.  Just off the top of my head a neopreme washer of the same thickness may serve the job. Those buffers for 1911's work very well on protecting the pistol. 

Attached Files

GregT posted this 07 November 2021

Hey, thank you! I will ask the folks who make the spacers. The more that I think about it, a tough nylon might be just the ticket. I'm thinking that nothing hits the buffers until the recoil spring's strength is exceeded. Some owners of 1911 semi-auto handguns use a buffer at the base of the recoil spring on the guide rod. Those are a tough but compressible blue plastic from Brownell's.The hole is almost large enough to put in place on the '05. I don't think the inventors found the right material because the right material did not exist in 1905!

Greg T.

Attached Files

MP1886 posted this 06 November 2021

Those aren't Delrin, Delrin is sort of new age polymer material and it's white.  Read this:

 

https://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.com/thread/384/recoil-buffer-replacement

 

Better get the correct material before you possibly damage your rifle.

 

Attached Files

GregT posted this 06 November 2021

Today I had a chance to complete some chronographing for one load in the Model 1905 Winchester rifle, caliber .35 Winchester Self Loading, serial number #2614. I chose the load that was most interesting as it used a very elderly can of DuPont Sporting Rifle #80.

Accurate Mold Company, mould #35-180C, 183 grain WW bullet sized to .3515", SPG lube, 8 grains of DuPont SR #80 propellant, Remington #6 1/2 small rifle primer (Lot # from 1956), .38 Special Cases with rim reduced to .414" in diameter, overall length of loaded cartridge is 1.641"

Velocity Readings, (10 feet from the muzzle), 10 shots:

1026, 1024,1067,1014,1077,1092,1121,.1138,1040,1142.( All feet per second)

Hi 1142, Low 1014, ES 128, Average1077.

I have another load using Unique propellant that I will chronograph tomorrow if the weather is nice...

This loading met my expectations for speed. I kept a close eye on the recoil bushings in the rifle and they remain untouched and un-battered!

     For what it's worth, someone on The Winchester Arms Company Forum thought these bushings are made of Delrin, a plastic-type of material. I found a company in New York that is a specialist in washers and spacers and do customer work with Delrin and many other materials. I'm going to measure an extra bushing I have and submit the measurements to them for a cost figure. Numrich is out of the originals. Of course, if the shooter will keep in mind the velocity of 1400 fps, and keep his rifle under that velocity, his recoil bushings would last a long time.

That's all for now.

Attached Files

GregT posted this 04 November 2021

This photo shows the bullet I am using from Accurate and the SR-80 powder. The powder was probably a bulk powder, and if it was it was almost the last made by DuPont. Phillip Sharpe in his massive book gives a good run-down of this powder. I am going to do the chronographing of this load today for ten shots. The weather is not cooperating and is really too cold for accurate work. As I type this my atomic clock says it is 20.6 degrees outside and the deer were looking at frozen drinking water in their buckets this morning... Only reached a high of 33 degrees yesterday.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • JeffinNZ
RicinYakima posted this 04 November 2021

Worked just fine!

Attached Files

GregT posted this 04 November 2021

I'm going to try to insert another photo showing the buffers for the Model 1905 and the relative size compared to a quarter. Here it goes! Anyone ever see anything like these? They are hard similar to a hard plastic but you can see particles within them. Looks like they were molded. These take the impact of the recoiling bolt. They either get touched (or not) if the load is within specs.Let's see how this posts.

GregT

Attached Files

JeffinNZ posted this 29 October 2021

This is a FANTASTIC thread.  Please write up for the Fouling Shot.

Cheers from New Zealand

Attached Files

GregT posted this 28 October 2021

Thank you for the note! I hurt my right upper arm muscle again trying to get my chainsaw started. I forgot all about that until I fired the Model 1905 yesterday. I now have a sore shoulder again! The counterweight inside the for-end, which recoils almost the same time as the normal recoil from firing the cartridge, ads a bit of a slam to the recoil cycle. I had to use this SR-80 powder sooner or later, and it will last a long time even at this rate.

GregT

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • delmarskid
Eutectic posted this 28 October 2021

They made good powder back then.

Some of my references say SR-80 is very close to Herco. Herco is a little slower than Unique so it looks like a good fit. I have used many pounds of Herco in the 357 Magnum where it gave excellent accuracy.  

Attached Files

Squid Boy posted this 28 October 2021

Greg,

I am glad you didn't take my question as some snarky comment. I thought about how it could be interpreted after I posted. I can understand your ideas now and it never occurred to me. These days with components in short supply I hate to waste a shot on something I know I cannot replace.

As to all the rest, i say bravo to you for doing what you do. 

Sincerely, Squid Boy 

"Squid Pro Quo"

Attached Files

GregT posted this 28 October 2021

Hmmmm. Going to upstage someone's Thanksgiving dinner?

GregT

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 October 2021

SR80, eh ? ...  when i wuz about 16, i shot a lot of that with cast in everything from 22 Baby Neidner to 44-40 ...  i can still smell that great odor today as you mention it.

i saved the last 1/4 cup of it, still have it in my stash ...  i think i will have it added into the turkey roaster when i am done with my current earthly body ...  put on a show fir the foks ...

enjoying your adventures ...

ken

Attached Files

GregT posted this 28 October 2021

Now.... Usually, after I develop a load for the old rifle I am working with, using gunpowder of the era of the rifle, I shoot groups from the bench with it at 35 yards to start with. They are three shot groups and tell me generally how good a bullet I have. In this case, the bullet used is cast from wheel-weights, 1970 era wheel weights. They are dropped from an Accurate Mold Company mold, #35-180C, 180 grains unlubed. I use SPG lube. After I shot a very limited number of rounds over my chronograph, I realized that I might just have a rifle and load combination that would really hammer home... I broke my own rule and fired two, 3 shot groups at a target posted 35 yards down range using 9 grains of SR-80, R-P #6 and 1/2 small rifle primers from 1956, and my cast and lubed slug sized to .3515". I could not resist. First target "felt good" and when I checked it, it showed three shots, the farthest two shots apart in the group were 1.5" center to center. I had thoughts about that group as I walked back to the bench and told myself it I could not shoot that load better than that, why bother with the project? Shot another 3 shot group, the farthest two shots apart in that group measured  ONE HALF INCH center to center! The third shot in that group was almost through the same hole as the first shot in the group. I will photograph the target and I will shoot a better three shot group before I am done with the project!

Thanks for being patient with me tonight.

GregT

   I will complete the chronographing soon. For what its worth, I can do a lot of shooting with that SR-80... I have two more un-opened 8 ounce containers, one wrapped in its original cellophane. 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
GregT posted this 28 October 2021

Squid Boy,

   Great question, simple answer... I like to find out what it was like to fire an obsolete rifle using obsolete powder of the same era as the rifle. This type of project usually involves making casings for the obsolete rifle where no casings currently exist. My final effort is to use the data I have developed into articles for the Fouling Shot Magazine. I have two other articles ready to submit: One involving the Model 1865 Spencer Civil War carbine in caliber .56/50 center-fire casing.The other involving the 1870 Sharps Carbine, more precisely the Sharps Carbine used by the Texas Rangers in the 1870's, in caliber .50/70. Why haven't I submitted the completed articles? Life got in the way: First, my 30 year career in Special Education at the local high school from which I retired on June 13, 2018...and then had a heart attack 3 days later requiring triple bypass surgery. Second, my 42 year and still continuing career in Foster Care for teen boys. The high point of this career came when on September 1st, 2020, I adopted a 15 year old young man who was in my home as a product of a failed adoption from Ethiopia, that had existed for ten years before it broke up and those adoptive "parents" threw him out! I was not going to lose this young man as I had watched others phase out of my home. Sam also has some significant handicaps (which he has largely over-ridden), as a result of being run over by a riding lawn mower when he was 3.5 years of age. He has two prosthetic lower legs and his left arm is present but useless. But he can shoot an M-1A almost as good as I can, handles a Model 1911 like he was born with it, and graduated from Hunter Safety with a perfect written test score and a perfect field test score. He is intensely interest in ammo reloading and primes many of my casings... Normally, I keep my personal life to myself, and I can only say that after this article is finished, it, and the two others will be submitted to the CBA. For what it's worth, one last thing: The data from my crashed computer was 100% recovered by my computer tech and will be installed onto an extra lap top I have. I will thus be able to do more photos and I think you all will like what I will have to offer. Incidentally, a member of this group, who will remain unnamed, offered to ship me a digital camera so I could complete this work. As my own camera and the software has survived, I did not need to take advantage of this generous and wonderful offer. He is a gentleman of the "old school" and is a reflection of the membership here in this group. I had intended to submit some house-keeping that I have been working on less my old computer, but let me start that in a post that will follow this one. I hope I have not broken any rules with my digression from the purposes of this Association, but when the perfect question is asked, it needs an answer. Thank you Squid Boy!

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • delmarskid
Squid Boy posted this 27 October 2021

Greg, I might be out of line here but why bother developing a powder that is long off the market unless you have a ton of it? I have been round that bend as more and more good powders are cut from production and force you to look for replacements. I don't bother dialing up new loads in those obsolete numbers and just use it up. I suppose that answers my question but i have a lot of loads that were developed long ago. Thanks, Squid Boy

"Squid Pro Quo"

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Eddie Southgate
GregT posted this 27 October 2021

Just a quick follow-up to my chronographing of the reload using SR-80 propellant. I installed the new battery in the chronograph and the final string figures showed up:  High fps: 1100, Low fps: 1057, Average fps: 1078 ES: 43. The two velocity figures are interesting but the other 4 shots were not saved as the battery quit. I am going to re-shoot this today with ten shots. Looks like the SR-80 is still pretty much intact chemically after all the years it has been around.

GregT

Hayward

Attached Files

GregT posted this 23 October 2021

Disaster struck my photo sharing ability when my old desktop computer died about an hour ago. I was using an old Olympus Camera and to reinstall the program on my current lap top, I need an install disc for Olympus Camedia Master 1.2  .I have not tried Olympus Optical Company yet, if they still exist. My cheap option is to find a relatively cheap camera to use just to take photos and then transfer those to a program on my lap top. I do not have a smart phone nor do I want one. If anyone has a suggestion please feel free to contact me off line at:    [email protected]   . Thanks for any help you may be able to give me.

GregT

Attached Files

Larry Gibson posted this 23 October 2021

I've always found Sharpe's load data to be spot on but the velocities almost always were a bit 'generous".  That my have been because he may not have actually chronographed them as a chronograph was a very specialized piece of equipment back in his day.  They may have been guestimated as many velocities and pressures were back then also [and even today].   If actually velocity tested I doubt, with all the load data in his book, that 10 or even five shots were tested or that the velocity listed was an "average".  May have on tested, if tested, a couple rounds and then just listed the highest velocity(?).

Sharpe states in his book; "The following list of handloads has been assembled from sources believed to be 100% reliable"  So there is that regarding the listed velocities.....we have no way of knowing how the actual testing was done.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

GregT posted this 23 October 2021

Good evening!  I have to try a photo, just putting some info together, hope it works. The photo I am trying to move will be one of the side view of the action of the Model 1905 I am working with. Remember, this is a 1st attempt. Here goes.Side view of my Model 1905 action

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
Show More Posts
Categories
Search
Popular Tags
This Weeks High Earners
Hot Topics
Close