Paper Patching

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  • Last Post 05 November 2023
Aaron posted this 03 November 2023

Well I finally tried it. Amazing! Shot a patched .451" 400gr pure lead,cupped base, swaged bullet from Buffalo Arms Co in the 45-90 1886 Winchester with Buffalo Rifle powder, and a .451" 540gr Buffalo Arms, swaged 20:1, cupped base bullet in the 45-70 Sharp's rifle with holy black.

Also used a sized down cast Lee 459-405 at .451" and patched. It shor just fine in the 1886 too.

With the smokeless, there was no fouling in the bore. Zero, Null, None, Nada. Two wipes with a cotton patch got all the unburned powder residue out.

The Holy Black of course, took a little more attention and time to clean. No leading whatsoever in either rifle.

What do you PPB users think? Roll with the rifling or against the rifling?

WOW.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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linoww posted this 03 November 2023

Paul Mathew's book "the paper jacket " almost has me patching for my AW Peterson false muzzle 38-55.I just re read it and am close to getting my stuff together.i have the mold,I just need to decide patching material. what paper are you using?

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Aaron posted this 03 November 2023

The Paper Jacket is a great read.

I bought some #9 Onion Skin paper at .002" from Buffalo Arms with the bullets. I used that in the test and it works fine. I also have some very expensive rag paper I use for the 1853 Enfield cartridges, which are essentially PPB too. The 1853 cartridges use a .550" bullet in a 58 caliber bore in the 1861 Springfield. There is a lot of windage there by design. That's different than the PPB for the Sharp's and Winchester lever action.

The #9 Onion Skin paper is MUCH cheaper than the rag paper. It costs $17 per 100 sheets. I had no failures today with it. Although I could not find a patch out in front of the muzzle, I had NO leading whatsoever, nor any patch debris in the bore after firing.

Bullets for the 38-55 will be the trick. If you have a .379-.381 groove diameter, you can patch a .375 bullet. Paul Matthews suggests that you patch to BORE diameter however if using a pure lead bullet and Black Powder. It bumps up apparently. I haven't looked for bullets for the 38-55 yet so I can't help there.

Hopefully someone on here has PP for the 38-55 and can chime in. It makes a significant difference if the rifle is a single shot or a lever action too.

Hope this helps.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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linoww posted this 03 November 2023

ah the Pritchett bullet! I played with that a bit when I had my English 2 band PH Enfield.i think I still have the paper in used, I don't remember what it was. A guy who shoots patched 45-120 gave it to me. My 38-55 is a hiwall. thanks for the info.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Aaron posted this 04 November 2023

My 38-55 is a hiwall.

A lot easier to load for. The C.O.A.L. in the lever action is a pest. No throat. Max length must be adhered to. With the SS, I can poke those bullets halfway down the barrel and get a full BP charge in there if need be.

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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linoww posted this 04 November 2023

I'd thought about a chase patch and breech seat also. I wish you wouldn't have started this thread ,I've been trying to stay away from another aspect of casting.Now I'm interested ...dammit

  below is my Axtell Peterson with Muzzle load / False muzzle set up as well as a breech seater.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Wilderness posted this 04 November 2023

I find the whole paper patching idea intriguing, and though I have no specific use for it just now, I have tried it a few times, always with success, at least by my standards.

My experiments, such as they have been, concerned using a regular mould to fit a rifle of larger caliber. I recalled an American Rifleman report of someone patching Hornady 500 gn .458" jacketed bullets to run in a .465" or .470" double rifle. This is something of a tangent to the usual discussion of patching.

The first experiment was with a .32-40. Mould was #311407HP, Loverin design casting .314", as soft as possible. The patch was Onion Skin, from a pad of the stuff I still have from when we used to write Air Mail letters on it. Gas check was omitted, with the shank contributing to the neatness of the tail as it was twisted. Patch went about half way up the nose. I rubbed the patch with Castrol LMM grease (because that's what I had) and ran the bullets through the .321" sizer. That hardened everything up nicely. Groups were about 1.5" at 50 meters, but depended on keeping some pressure on the bullet.

The next time I tried it was with some .452" hard cast ACP bullets. i patched them up pretty much the same way (except for sizing) for a friend's .45-70. They shot about 2" at 50 meters, which was plenty for what he was doing with them.

My third try was with #358009HP, .360" hard alloy, patched up to 9.3 mm for the same friend. With something like full power loads in 9.3x62 they reportedly shot "well" in one rifle and poorly in another.

I also had a go at fitting #358009HP to a Marlin 336A Rippletop .35 with .361"+ barrel. I sized the bullet to .354" before patching and got to .362". The experiment went no further than making the bullets.

Not exactly the high precision stuff most people are into, but a handy expedient to have when you don't have the right mould - and it avoids buying gas checks.

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Aaron posted this 04 November 2023

  below is my Axtell Peterson with Muzzle load / False muzzle set up as well as a breech seater.

BEEEEE-UTIFUL Rifle!!

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Aaron posted this 04 November 2023

I find the whole paper patching idea intriguing, and though I have no specific use for it just now, I have tried it a few times, always with success, at least by my standards.

My experiments, such as they have been, concerned using a regular mould to fit a rifle of larger caliber.

Fortunately my 38-55 mold throws a .375 bullet which can be patched up to fit and shoot in my Uberti Winchester M94 with a larger bore/groove diameter. That should be fun to play with.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Tom Acheson posted this 04 November 2023

I tried PP and ever since have gone back and forth between those bullets and my "greasers".

The first effort was with slugs and paper from Buffal Arms. That encouraged me enough to order a custom mold from Steve Brooks. When ordering he asked four things...

....what finished bullet OD is desired

....what thickness paper will be used

....what alloy is being used

....what bullet weight is desired

You can't beat the looks of a loaded PP cartridge, way cool! I think the PP technique was on the scene before grooved lubed bullets.

Tom

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4060may posted this 04 November 2023

I shoot at Canal Fulton Ramrod Club in Ohio

FWIW

there is a plethora of slug gun shooters there, most of the ones I know, that shoot Chase Patch with a false muzzle, Reynolds freezer wrap with plastic on one side seems to be the one preferred, considering these are Muzzleloading rifles.

I shoot PP in my 38-50 Remington, patched to Groove, mainly because the smith slipped with the throating reamer, t barrel is Shilen 1-12 tw, .376 groove, throat is close to .380, I use drafting paper,mostly.

The mold we made casts .368, .002 paper thickness x2 = .376, slip fit in the case,60 grains of KIK or OleE, 1 1/2, sometimes FFG, .060 poly wad and cork wad together, poly against the power, .200 compression(from memory), 81 and counting.

for fouling control shooting PP bullets, the only thing ever worked for me is Bore Pigs,

 

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linoww posted this 04 November 2023

Unless i'm wrong, I thought the chase patch was just a single wrap of paper on a bullet that was breach seated. The cross patch is the  one you load from the muzzle correct ?

I get mixed up on which is which

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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4060may posted this 04 November 2023

chase patch is one turn no overlap

my friend Jerry DeVaudruil tried to use chase patching breech seated, didn't work

to use chase patching from the muzzle, requires a false muzzle, generally tapered, Jerry was a slug gun shooter, no longer with us, had a few still standing records, the Slug gun shooters also use a cross patch system, if your false muzzle has, cross cuts in it, this was the method used for it, this type covers the bottom of the bullet

IIRC he patched the bullet and kept them in a loading block, and pushed them into the false muzzle, I always had a hard enough time doing what I do, I decided to pass on the slug gun, although he tried to get me into it for many years.

 

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Tom Acheson posted this 04 November 2023

You really need to be careful with this forum. You compose some info, get distracted, a phone call, visit the bathroom, etc. and come back and what you wrote but didn’t send…..is gone! From now on, rough draft it in Word and cut and paste it into the reply box. Cannot trust this thing!

 

In my snooping on other forums, I’ve noticed that many shooters using BP CARTRIDGE PP rounds (fixed ammo) use the technique of two wet, followed by one dry patch, pushed down the bore after each shot. A dedicated delron wiping rod is used, not a cleaning rod, along with a wiping solution, for the two wet patches. Some of the shooters use bore pigs. I tried some Buffalo Arms bore pigs but got better results with the 2-wet, one dry patch approach, especially with PP bullets.

 

Oftentimes the shooters who like bore pigs are often match shooters engaged in fixed time shooting requirements. For example, the NRA rifle silhouette match allows 2-minutes to fire (5) rounds. During that time the shooter must do his bore conditioning between shots, as well as get his rifle into position, aim and shoot his (5) rounds. Bore pigs can aid in the speed needed to condition the bore after each shot.

 

Some of these PP BP shooters remind you of some of our CBA shooters. They like to “make their own”. Not just bullet lube and bore wiping solution but also homemade bore pigs. 

 

Tom

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Aaron posted this 04 November 2023

You really need to be careful with this forum. You compose some info, get distracted, a phone call, visit the bathroom, etc. and come back and what you wrote but didn’t send…..is gone! From now on, rough draft it in Word and cut and paste it into the reply box.


 

Absolutely! I do that with my larger (multi paragraph) posts and replies to save editing after posting. That allows me to review all the measurements and technical data. It also allows me to find all the "auto corrections" made on my behalf by these fantastic programs that "make our lives easier."

 

It is amazing too how much the clan on here likes to make their own stuff. Lubes, jigs, rods, loaders, molds, PID's, and all the other cooters we use. The geekness is palpable. surprised

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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4060may posted this 05 November 2023

Tom

2 minutes 15 seconds is High power, no sighters, BPCR 7 minutes for first bank of animals with sighters, second and third is 5 minutes no sighters

with the pigs I use a dry patch to push them thru,  The CBA turkey target was shot with 4' high cross sticks and me sitting in a chair, haven't been able to shoot laying down since 2012, last BPCR,NRA match I shot

 

Th 38 with 1-12 tw, needs pigs, the 40 cal I was able to use the patch set-up, c\but can't take the recoil any longer

Chuck

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Tom Acheson posted this 05 November 2023

A little history related to recoil, not PP.

 

In 2009, a good friend, John and I, each ordered a new Model 74 from CSA. Mine in 40 2 ½ and his in .38-55. He set his up with a scope from MVA. I had the factory install a Baldwin front globe sight and a Hoke rear sight on mine. I bought and sent the sights to the factory and had them install them.

 

John and I shot several NRA rifle silhouette matches together. Amazingly he used Unique powder in his loads. He disliked BP. I used Swiss 1 ½ for those matches. John was very sensitive to recoil. I can recall another shooter down the line once saying…”is he shooting a .22?” John’s gun made very little noise compared to the rest of us on the line using BP!

 

The matches we went to were not NRA sanctioned, they didn’t adhere to the allowed shooting times. But they were still fun. For the CBA National Tournament in Raton, NM @ the Whittington Center in 2009, I brought the Sharps with for the offhand event. I doubt the other shooters liked the smoke! But then I discovered the High Power Rifle Range. All of the silhouette targets were set up and no one was there. So I parked my wife behind the spotting scope and she helped me get sight settings for meters. Our local matches used yards for shooting distances. In 2012 I travelled to Bismarck, ND to shoot a registered match to get my classification. Silhouette shooting is a buddy game. One guy shoots while the other spots and they trade places. John passed in 2016 and I have not shot a match since.

 

When I hear about recoil sensitivity, it always reminds me of good friend John.

 

So far I’ve survived what a friend told me when he found out I had a new rifle. “Welcome to the world of rear sight and mold collecting”. He didn’t know that already I owned over (60) molds. But rear sights? The Hoke is the only one I own, they cost a lot more than a mold! So far I’ve been able to limit my .40 caliber molds to (4).

 

Tom

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