LOCAL ATF RAID

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  • Last Post 05 September 2023
mashburn posted this 26 August 2023

A few weeks ago, the ATF raided a gunshop, a ways from here, out in the country. They took his entire stock of firearms, which was 93. I've heard, they also took his private arms collection, but I'm not for sure. They took the confiscated rifles, to a gunshop to a town near here, which is owned by one of my former students, to be put on consignment. I don't know if the proceeds go back to the shop owner,or what. I'm going down the next few days and see what the real story is, on the consignments.

The owner of the raided shop is a real nice guy, and I can't believe he failed to follow an AFT rule. He teaches at the local High School and is the minister at our local Southern Baptist Church, just about 3 miles West of me, I hear that he was at a Tulsa, Oklahoma, gun show a couple of weeks ago and violated something, but that is just hear say. If I learn more, I will post more.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Aaron posted this 26 August 2023

If the ATF raided a store for criminal activity, the firearms confiscated would be held as evidence for a federal criminal trial. I seriously doubt they would be handed over to another gun store and placed on a consignment.

Sounds more like they revoked his FFL for a serious violation or more likely, a series of violations, and now he has to dispose of the firearms (property) through another FFL who has absorbed them into their ATF book.

 

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Ross Smith posted this 27 August 2023

The atf was pretty high-handed with my local small gun dealer. He was cleared, but is shy about dealing with them.

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Aaron posted this 28 August 2023

Simply put, the ATF does not suffer fools. In my dealings with the ATF over the last 4 decades, they were professional, courteous, and "by the book." Small gun dealers (and large dealers) get themselves into trouble when the bound book does not match the steel of the gun. For example, Stoeger is an importer for the Uberti made guns. The MFG is therefore - UBERTI. Same with Cimarron Arms. They are the IMPORTER, not the manufacturer. Their guns are made in Italy by either Uberti or Pietta.

Most small FFL license holders get into trouble with inaccurate records in their bound books. The ATF will attempt to guide them once or twice but eventually, if errors persist, they will lose their FFL. As I said, the ATF does NOT suffer fools. Your book is either correct or it isn't. It MUST match the steel stampings/engravings, and serial numbers must be error free.

Another area of intense focus by the ATF is the Serial Number. A lot of guns of yester-year do an excellent job of hiding the serial numbers somewhere on the frame, and necessitate disassembly of the firearm to locate the serial number. Production numbers are NOT serial numbers and the ATF inspectors will take great delight in pointing that out to you - once or twice. Calibers must be entered as they appear on the steel. 44 WCF is NOT 44-40 if the steel is stamped 44 WCF. Same with 30 WCF and other earlier calibers.

The above rifle caliber is NOT .30-06 or .30-06 Remington or .30-06 Springfield. It is .30 M1. Likewise an AR platform with a receiver stamped "Multi" for caliber must be entered as "Multi" in the bound book, not the caliber of the upper attached to it. Receivers like the AR receivers can be sold without uppers.

I have been through several ATF audits and they inevitably find something to highlight. When dealing with European calibers and military surplus firearms which have been imported, data can be easily muddled. Importers of these arms can change on a dime like C.A.I. for example.

Taurus and Rossi are often interchanged. Again, what is stamped on the steel is what MUST be in the bound book. If your revolver barrel says 45 Colt, your bound book better not have 45 Long Colt as the caliber. Model names are often the cause of problems. A 38 Special S&W Model 15-2 had better be entered as a Model 15-2 as read off the frame at the crane. It is not a "Combat Masterpiece" for the ATF.

Personal firearms located on the licensed premise can be a significant issue. If this is the case, intense focus will be made to determine if a firearm is in fact owned by the license holder (business) or the citizen. Again, a legitimate transfer of the firearm from a licensed business MUST be shown, even if the gun was purchased from a private individual. When I was running my business, I always kept a copy of the 4473 from another dealer, or could show the transfer to me (private citizen) from my own bound book. That transfer had to comply with ALL local, state, and federal laws; in other words, a 4473 form and appropriate entry in the bound book.

A licensed FFL can't simply be familiar with the ATF regulations and law regarding their license. They must comply to the letter with these regulations and laws.

Bottom line is that ATF inspections are designed to assist FFL holders to keep accurate records. An errant FFL holder will receive guidance a few times. Repeated errors in the bound book, or 4473 forms filled out incorrectly, or blatant violations of the law or transfer process, will result in a revocation of the FFL license. The ATF does NOT suffer fools and there is a concerted effort afoot to shut down the hobby FFL holders.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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delmarskid posted this 28 August 2023

Aaron is correct. A person must enter what is marked on the frame of the firearm. It’s easy to enter the information as marked on the box of a new gun but it is important to open the box and see that the arm’s numbers match the box. Line workers make mistakes.

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Premod70 posted this 28 August 2023

And Americans willingly comply to this nonsense.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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mashburn posted this 29 August 2023

Hello Premod70

Thanks for a normal response, there are so many people who are asleep to what is actually going on.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 31 August 2023

Aaron,

I don't know what I did to tick you off so, whatever it was seems to have ticked you to the highest level of ticktivity. I think the only contact between you and I, was my response to your cleaning post. I expressed my choice for Benchrest products and made a joke about how far back in the sticks that I lived. I then, made a short post about an ATF raid in the area, of which I knew little about, therefore my post was brief.

I feel that you went to extremes with all of the chapter and verse of ATF law about the raid that you knew nothing about. You sure went to a lot of trouble digging all of that stuff up in an attempt, that I feel was an attempt to down dress me. You use the word fool three times during this post. I can assure you that Russel, the man whom the raid was conducted against, isn't a fool and I l am not a fool, and neither are most of the people in Oklahoma. If you would like, I will be glad to compare IQ's with you and the highest level of education attained and I'm sure Russel would do the same.

Now to the raid, I know much more than I did, but not all of the details. Years ago, before Russel was an FFL holder, he bought a new firearm through a legal purchase as a private citizen. He later sold this weapon to another person and the firearm eventually made its way to Canada, and was used in a crime. The ATF claimed, without any proof, that he sold this weapon through his store, without the required paper- work. I know Russel very well, and he's not that kind of person or as you might say, fool.

13 ATF agents pulled in his drive and converged on his house. They came in the living room and immediately handcuffed him.His wife and small children, who were all, present, were all squalling and bawling, which you can imagine, what kind of effect that this would have on a husband and a father. Being in his living room, there were no cameras to record all of the threats and bullying that took place. As most ministers, Russel isn't the confrontational type of person. I do not know what exactly that they scared him so with, so I won't repeat here say. They revoked his license on the spot and took the firearms to a local dealer and put on consignment.They did confiscate his private collection of private firearms. Now here is a real kicker, they high graded his collection and only took the firearms of more value, the cheaper ones were left with him.

Somewhere in your response you mentioned something to the effect that small and part time dealers should be shut down. To the best of my knowledge, we live in a Capitalistic country, even though lots of people wish other otherwise. Everyone has the right to own a business and the right, to succeed or go broke. Russel had a place of business, set business hours and passed the FFL background check, so why shouldn't he be allowed to have a gun shop. In this part of the country, it's hard to make enough money to support a family and there are lots of people who do the same, work multiple jobs or even run a business while maintaining another source of income. While I was an educator, I maintained a small ranch and I don't think that anyone who bought my beef in the store was upset, because it came from a small, operation.

I don't know if you are still an FFL holder or not, but in this part of the country the ATF has changed. When GM still made Oldsmobile's, they had a commercial that said, "This Is Not Your Fathers Oldsmobile". Here in this area, you could say this is not your father's ATF. They are constantly, holding bullying raids with one objective in mind, shut them down.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Aaron posted this 31 August 2023

Well first and foremost, you have done nothing to "tick me off." Your post expressed concern that the ATF may be running riot there near you. I simply replied to that concept, and addressed the concern, that many in the firearms community have, about the now weaponized ATF. I pointed out that it has been my experience that ATF field inspectors and agents have always been witnessed by me to be professional, courteous, and focused on assisting FFL holders (large and small) with error correction in their paperwork and process.

There are those FFL holders whose errors have led to difficult interactions with the ATF. My use of the term "does not suffer fools" is used in general, not specifically to your acquaintances or to you. It is a general term used in English literature to express ones frustration with a group of people, specific people, agencies, organizations, and other societal entities whose actions, over time, cause disruption, are illegal, or are generally outside the scope and boundaries of what we deem proper and correct. It is a term meant to convey frustration with one for another, whose actions are foolish.

The ATF, IRS, FBI, DOJ, CIA, and all the other government and civil alphabet soup of agencies, all of them, do not suffer fools well. Since most of the forum members here are in their metallic years, I figured the term would be a familiar one to the membership like the term just used - metallic years.

Having been in the firearms industry for many years, I am continually inundated with firearms legend, lore, old wives tales, rumors, wrong information, hearsay, and plain old BS, even more so, with the advent of the internet and all of the "experts" who make videos. Again, no personal accusations here, simply observations of the general FOOLS out there posing as knowledgeable "experts" on matters dear to us all. It has been my experience that on this forum, the general membership of gray-beards convey useful and helpful guidance, yourself included.

Now, what may seem extreme to you, is my every day life; correcting entries made by less experienced folks into corporate ATF bound books. These younger folks do not have the experience that we, the membership here have, and therefore make ridiculous errors in proper ATF documents, that could, cause serious damage to business.

In the last decade, the ATF has made aggressive efforts to shut down hobby licensees to address nationwide issues of firearms access to the criminal element and reduce "mass shootings", which dominate the media. Now we can endlessly debate the cause of these media events and illegal firearms access, but that is not the point. We all pretty much know these guns are stolen. That does not diminish however that due to unknowing mistakes by hobby FFL holders, guns are getting into the wrong hands. Do I want the ATF sniffing around if I am a legit, God fearing, honest business owner or have a FFL to collect? Heck no! The ATF however knows that this is precisely where the majority of mistakes are made.

Regarding your specific example of a acquaintance getting hauled in; I wasn't there, nor do I know the actual details of the incident. I can only say, as I did, that the ATF does not suffer fools. I hope your friend does not fit into that category. Here in my area, TWO local FFL's lost their FFL after raids. One was dealing out the back door, and the other could not keep good book if St. Michael was assisting him. Such is life eh?

You mentioned that your friend is genuinely a nice, law abiding guy, who passed the background check for an FFL. I passed too but that doesn't mean I know the law and process to function as an FFL. I can pull teeth. That doesn't mean I can hang up a dentists shingle on my door and pull your teeth. Clearly, something went belly-up with your friend and the ATF got involved. Hopefully that matter will be resolved in everyone's favor and the matter can be put to bed.

Perhaps it is wise for me to clarify "hobby FFL" as well. If one has a BRICK & MORTAR business, they are not classified as a "hobby FFL." A "hobby FFL" is an individual with an FFL located at their place of residence (home) who uses the FFL for friends, family members, and themselves, to acquire firearms at reduced prices. These are the knuckleheads the ATF is trying to clamp down on. They are, as a class of licensee, causing grief within the industry.

So in conclusion please do not think I was dressing you down. I was addressing the post on a larger societal scale and attempted to point out to the entire user community what errors I see on a daily basis from less experienced, younger, and less knowledgeable staff. I remind them that "the ATF does not suffer fools, so don't be a fool!" "Learn the rules, don't make repeated mistakes."

My use of the image that was removed was to show what we should not become and its removal was noted by me. Perhaps it caused offense to some, perhaps you too. It was not meant that way.

Smooth your feathers, have another cuppa, and know that as a fellow Oklahoma property owner, I know that Oklahoma residents are great. There are a few nut jobs there, but bucking horses usually take care of that group!

<insert bucking horse image here>

 

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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David Reiss posted this 05 September 2023

I had an encounter with ATF after selling a pistol to someone as a private legal sale. This sale was in 2003. One morning in 2009 two ATF agents knocked on my door. They stayed outside while I spoke to them at the door. They showed my a photo and description of the pistol involved and explained that the pistol had been used in a gang murder in New Jersey. There investigation was to see if I was involved in the selling of firearms to gangs/organized crime. I explained to them that the pistol was sold on Gunbroker to a dealer and was transferred through a local ATF holder.

At this point they were asked to come inside where we discussed the matter further. After about 30 minutes of talking they said that they were convinced that I was not a criminal and thanked me for my cooperation. They left and I have never heard from them again. 

Although I was caught off guard that morning and initially worried about being called on by ATF. However their professionalism and courtesy made me feel confident that they were just doing their job.   


David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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