Latest Plain Base Aquisition

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  • Last Post 11 December 2023
pat i. posted this 09 December 2023

 

This is my latest Plain Base bullet. It's a NOE 309-172-FN. Cast about .311. It has about a .100 long full diameter band in front of the forward lube groove. I run it into a 1 1/2 degree taper die to bring it down to .307 where it meets the lube groove. I lube 2 grooves with Javalina Schuetzen lube. It weighs 173 grains. It isn't shooting as well as I like so far but I have some hope for this one. I started at 13.5 grains of #9 and will raise it up next time out. Cold weather and 10 to15 mph winds aren't helping that's for sure

 

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linoww posted this 09 December 2023

good looking design and looking promising.

I'll try the few you sent me when weather improves.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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rhbrink posted this 09 December 2023

What's the alloy and how fast are you shooting it?

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pat i. posted this 09 December 2023

What's the alloy and how fast are you shooting it?

WWs at about 1400 fps give or take. I truly believe a big part of the problem is my bench technique. It's not easy being consistent with a hunting gun off the bench. Im used to 3 inch wide forends, 14 pounds, 2 oz triggers, and minimum shoulder contact which this thing ain't. Not to mention the chamber being cut off center.

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rhbrink posted this 10 December 2023

My first thoughts are a softer bullet, shoot it a bit faster. Dealing with the off-center chamber may be a serious problem to overcome, you might try marking the cases and index the case in the chamber. That works with single shots, but I don't know how well it would work with a turn bolt.

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OU812 posted this 10 December 2023

A member that went by the name frnkeore designed that bullet and NOE produced it. I had great success with the gas checked version taper bumped 1.5 degree included.

Here is link to my results:Taper Bumping (castbulletassoc.org)

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pat i. posted this 10 December 2023

Thanks for the replies. 812 excellent results in your thread but we're dealing with different circumstances. While I think the bullet design is a winner once you lose the gas check, knock down the velocity quite a bit, and deal with a stock 06 throat it ups the game quite a bit. I have a 1 1/2 degree included Unithroater but unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, throating isn't allowed in hunter class. Put in perspective I really don't think it's shooting too bad at 100 yards with temps in the 30s and 10 -15 mph winds everytime I get a chance to shoot I'm just used to better. Please don't think I'm being sarcastic or snarky in this reply and realize you're trying to be helpful but think we're talking a different game. I wish Veral hadn't lost his business because I would have ordered a mold from him at the start of all this.

Rich I'll try indexing the brass to see if it makes a difference. I used to index it in my HVY rifle barrels but didn't consider doing it here. I suppose every little bit could potentially help. I've shot bullets that were a week old at 9 bnh and some aged a bit at 11.5 bnh and they shot the same. Raising the velocity up a bit is on my list of things to do. With the price and availability of powder nowadays I'm gonna stick with #9 until I either find a load I'm satisfied with or I run out.

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gnoahhh posted this 10 December 2023

My gut says a bit softer alloy, say 1:15 or 1:20 tin:lead, and a bit more velocity.

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pat i. posted this 10 December 2023

A serious question. What would be the difference between using 10 or 11 bnh WWs as opposed to 20-1 which is supposed to be 10 bnh? I don't plan on going to a lead tin mix because I have a ton of WWs and the whole point if this excersize is to try to get something that would be somewhat competitive in hunter class on the cheap.

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Bud Hyett posted this 11 December 2023

What would be the difference between using 10 or 11 Brinell hardness WWs as opposed to 20-1 which is supposed to be 10 Brinell hardness?

The best alloy I ever had was when I was shooting with Ed Doonan in Illinois. This alloy came out between 12 and 14 Brinell without heat-treat. This was a known alloy of 92% lead, 6% antimony. 2% tin from a scrap yard in Genoa. This alloy is hard enough for magnum pistol and rifle while still soft enough to deform to the rifling in higher velocity loadings. I've tried harder alloys, used Linotype and used Monotype, that do not work any better.

Going back over my targets from that era, this alloy shoots well at 1600 to 1700 feet-per-second. I recently smelted four hundred pounds of this alloy, I hope my calculations are correct, and will be experimenting with loads again after New Year's Day. I wish I had the bullet recovery box from those days to be able to assess the bullets reaction to the rifling.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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pat i. posted this 11 December 2023

All I've ever used is straight clip on WWs from when I cast my first bullet. From the 32 S&W Long to a 30x47 at 2550 fps and a bunch in between. Air cooled it's around 11 bnh, water dropped is right near 20 bnh, and oven heat treated it's close enough to 34 bnh for government work. I can't see me needing or wanting anything else. When people start talking about mixing it 50/50 with lead or spicing it up with tin I ask myself why. It works fine as is unless you need bullets you can see your reflection in. At least that's my experience.

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RicinYakima posted this 11 December 2023

Don't disagree Pat. When I was shooting matches and weighing bullets, adding tin reduced the cull rate. 

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linoww posted this 11 December 2023

Pat sent me 100 bullets to try and I weighed a few(and stopped because they were about identical ) and also visually inspected as I loaded and they were some of the most well filled out uniform bullets I've seen.Just my 2c.i know Pat has competed and held CBA  records in a very competitive class and I'm pretty sure he knows how to cast a bullet!

 

Pat and I are both trying to make plainbase 30 calibers competitive in CBA  hunter class.A few good groups do show up but consistently shooting sub MOA is elusive.

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i. posted this 11 December 2023

Don't disagree Pat. When I was shooting matches and weighing bullets, adding tin reduced the cull rate. 

I shot a lot of matches in the past and can't comment on adding tin to cut down on culls because I never added tin or thought I experienced an over abundance of culls. To me saying straight WWs won't cast good bullets falls in the same category as saying frosted bullets are no good. I always strived for frosting because I thought they gave the best fill out and would give you maximum hardness when water dropping. This is only my experience and maybe others experiences are different. I was never really one of the top level match shooter but as far as I'm concerned I never embarrassed myself or even considered it was because I was using WWs. And to set a record straight when I did shoot in matches I set A, as in 1, short lived tecord. I don't think the ink even dried on the paper before Dan Hudson took it away from me.

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RicinYakima posted this 11 December 2023

I understand what you are saying. Was successful military rifle shooter in all four classes and mostly shot linotype. My advantage was, I think, was that I could make ammo that shot as good as the rifle would shoot. But I was not a great shooter, just could make the rifle shoot. 

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John Alexander posted this 11 December 2023

The standard advice on using wheelwrights is to add 2% tin. It is one of those things that everybody "knows."  I shot wheelweights in matches for several years, and like Pat never thought tin was needed to cast good bullets. You do have to cast hotter than usual. Pat's luck with frosted bullets means higher temperatures.  

I don't doubt that adding a bit of tin makes it easier to make good bullets at lower temperatures, but turning up the pot seemed easier than finding and adding tin. 

John

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pat i. posted this 11 December 2023

, but turning up the pot seemed easier than finding and adding tin. 

John

Not to mention paying for it.

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RicinYakima posted this 11 December 2023

I have been casting bullets for over 50 years and also had an interest in chemistry. So when I worked for 18 years of the Department of Ecology, I was interested in wheel weights (being cheap and always looking for a deal).

So, a brief history of the "wheel weight". They became popular in the 1930's when cars and speed limits increased mainly due to more paved roads. WW2 aircraft production required well balanced wheels to safely land aircraft, especially the hot fighter planes. Post war, as speeds increased every car had lead wheel weights.

In Tacoma, WA, there is a scrap yard run by Jones, Inc., that I had a working relationship with and a personal one with the yard superintendent.  His story is that until about 1975 truck WW's were about 7% antimony and 3% tin and cars 4% and 2%. They received WW's in the one ton box bins that were dumped into the crucible at 900* F. A skimmer took all the steel and trash off the top and lead alloy was tapped off the bottom into old linotype moulds, 10 kilograms (22 pounds). Until about 1990, this normally was about 4% antimony and 1% tin as the rest had been oxidized and went with the skim.

There was a foundry about five miles away that made wheel weights from this stuff, reheated and cast into wheel weights. The composition was about 2.5% antimony and 0.5% tin. The late 1990's brought Asian cars with wheel weights made of anything that would melt in the furnace. Then the 00's brought zinc and iron. 

Dennis Marshall's chapter in Lyman's "Cast Bullet Handbook", 3rd edition, has the best article on the metallurgy of lead alloys I ever read. With all that said, 1% tin and 3% antimony is all you need for great fill out at 700*F. A one pound roll of modern tin solder will do 100 pounds of WW's, so I don't view that as very expensive. 

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