Ladle Casting Question

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Last Post 08 February 2022

Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 04 February 2022

I’m new to ladle casting and could use some advice.

What’s the best way to get fill out when ladle casting? I’m trying to get another .0004 - .0005” nose diameter on a single cavity bore rider design brass mold from Accurate. I’m using Linotype, cadence of 22 seconds, 700 degrees alloy with the running mold temperature 340 to 350.

I tried a ladle casting version of “pressure casting” starting the pour with a full ladle and keeping the ladle snout tight to the spruce plate hole for 3 to 8 seconds after rotation of the mold ladle. I can get a consistent .3005” nose but my rifle bore is oversized and I need a little more to reach the lands. Bullet weight is pretty consistent at 213.9 +/- .002.

Thanks, Bill.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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19 Comments

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CBA Member

Boschloper posted this 04 February 2022

Lap the nose.

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 04 February 2022

Sorry but I know my limitations. I’m sure I’d ruin the mold. Bill.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 04 February 2022

Then beagle the mold. Easy to do and can just as easily undone. I use ordinary kitchen aluminum foil. One or two layers should get you the extra diameter you want. The bullets will then be out of round but they probably are anyway. Out of round bullets that fit shoot a lot better round ones that don't fit.

John

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 04 February 2022

John I know you’re right about out of round’s effect on accuracy. I have a dickens of a time getting the foil to stick. But that’s the logical next step.

John you bottom pour don’t you? Do you think using a bottom pour and pressure casting would do any good? I have a clean pot on the shelf and could give that a try.

And is there such a thing as pressure casting with a ladle? I guess not because there isn’t enough alloy in the ladle to make a difference. Bill C

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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CBA Member

R. Dupraz posted this 04 February 2022

Beagle the mold with furnace installers aluminum duct tape.

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 04 February 2022

Thanks R but most all of the duct work tape I’ve tried in the past was too thick. Most was in the .003 range. For the diameter I need a single (or double) layer of heavy duty kitchen foil should do it. Just need to bump the nose a scotch. I’m gonna give that a try after a dr visit this morning. Thanks, Bill C.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 04 February 2022

Bill,

I know the foil doesn't want to stick but I have found that if the mold block faces are clean a little Elmers white glue will do he job. I usually clamp the mold in a vice for a day after glueing. The foil can be peeled off with a sharp knife -- a plus. But it usually holds on for hundreds of casts. I also have found the furnace tape I have too thick for fine adjustments. Maybe some is thiner.

Some say they can control the diameter a bit by dinking around with temperatures and pressure bottom pour. I have tried and never been able to do that. I hope someone who has been successful will chime in.

John

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 04 February 2022

Thanks. That’s the feedback I was looking for. Just didn’t want to spend a lot of time nibbling on the edges for a cure. Brought the mold up to the house and I’ll clean it real good then go with aluminum foil, wax paper, Elmer’s glue and compression. Bore riders are interesting in that you can feel them slide into the lands. Almost no resistance, you just feel them sliding in. Bill Cook

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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CBA Member

Shootingfun posted this 05 February 2022

Maybe try spraying Franklin mold release on inner surface. Put a bullet in each half first to keep the spray out of the cavity. You could try one side first to see what the offset would give you.

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CBA Member

ray h posted this 05 February 2022

I notice you mention using Elmer's glue on the mold, will it etch the surface? It sure spotted my table saw top.

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 05 February 2022

Shooting fun; didn’t know there was a buildup to mold release. You might have something there.

Ray: I’ve used on brass molds and didn’t notice any etching but you could do a spot test on the outside of the mold.

The following doesn’t have the finality that the tablet the 10 commandments were written on but here are the steps someone a lot smarter than I gave me for beagling.

1) Elmer's Glue-All, multi-purpose glue. 2) Take care not to get glue on the pins. 3) Mold faces must be clean for the glue to adhere to. 4) Apply a MINIMUM (see why on step 7 below) amount of glue to the foil. 5) Place the foil where you want it on on half of the mold. 6) Put a piece of wax paper over that mold half and mate the second half to the first. 7) Press it together with moderate pressure in a vice and let it set for several hours. 8) Scrape off, clean and repeat as necessary.

I got a little kit I keep in my loading box that holds all the dribs and drabs.

The heavy duty foil from the store comes in at about .0005. The heating and cooling duct tape comes at about .003 and it has a lot of adhesive that oozes out upon compression. Someone gave me a sample of .002 self adhesive tape once but .002 is too much for this endeavor.

Does anyone have an adhesive other than Elmers that they work with for beagling?.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 05 February 2022

I don't know what it is about kitchen al. foil that doesn't let a glue like Elmer's "wet" the surface? It works anyway but would stick better if it did. Since the glue wets newly sanded Al. or Al. that has oxidized (most Al.) Al foil must have some kind of weak surface layer. Maybe something to slow oxidation and dulling. With the right solvent it may be removable. I am going to try "cleaning" the foil the next time I beagle. Soapy water, acetone, carb cleaner?

What do the chemists say is the coating and how to remove it?

John

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 05 February 2022

No chemist in my household but I’ll do some R&D tomorrow using a few test spots on the back of the brass mold I’m working with. Au natural, acetone and soap/water.

Side question. Is there any way to change the subject title of this post to something relevant to beagling? Thanks, Bill C.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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Standard Member

OU812 posted this 06 February 2022

You can use center punch to raise the surface of mould. I punch about 3 to 4 raised areas on female side of mould then sand on flat surface to desired casting diameter.

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 07 February 2022

Today I got around to trying a couple different glues to adhere aluminum foil on a mold. As a heads up, this effort was no where close to following scientific methods but it gave me a quick look.

I cleaned aluminum foil samples and a brass mold with acetone. I used three different glues that I had on hand. One was Elmer's wood glue, one was Elmer's spray on adhesive and the other was 3M 77 spray on adhesive. After putting the adhesive on the sample foil tabs I pressed them on the brass mold and put a 5 lb ingot on top of a molding stick which pressed against the aluminum foil. After 30 minutes or so of pressure and another 15 minutes on a hot plate I peeled each piece of foil off the mold and and made a subjective assessment of adhesion between the foil and the mold.

The spray on general purpose Elmer's glue was the worse of the three. I gave the adhesion a 1 out of a scale to 5. Second worse was the Elmer's "wood glue" (maybe using "wood glue" glue on brass was the greatest idea but its all I had). I gave the bottled Elmer's a 2 out of 5.

I gave the 3M adhesive a 4 out of 5. Cleanliness and ease of application was good. If you look at the picture titled 3M 77 you can see the way the foil peeled off in a tight uniform manner. It came off as if it were store bought two part self adhesive tape. The 3M spray glue had the texture of the self adhesive "duct tape" some folks use but without the excessive volume and thickness of glue that's on the duct tape. Applying the spray adhesive allowed an even thin film of glue. It seems to be as user friendly as the self adhesive "duct tape" but instead of a messy .003" increments you can build up in steps of .0005 - .0007, That's about what I was looking for with the bore rider I'm working with.

I think the 3M product a try is worth a try. I'll do up a mold in the morning and let you know how the longevity looks.. Thanks Bill C.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 07 February 2022

... as one quite adept at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory ...

i wonder if sodium silicate ( water glass ) would work in this application .. ?

interesting stuff .. i used it to secure the over-shot wads in my all-brass shotshells ... would take some pretty rough handling ...

ken

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CBA President

John Alexander posted this 07 February 2022

Perfect scientific procedure or not, thanks for finding a better glue for Al. Foil. Good work!

I don't much like spray on anything but will be looking for a can of 3M77 on next trip to hardware store.

John

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Standard Member

Wm Cook posted this 08 February 2022

Today I had a chance to cast a hundred or so drops and everything worked good. Attached are the before and after pictures.

When I was finished the foil pealed off intact with what looked like 100% contact. Cleanup with a nylon brush and acetone took about 2 minutes. Build up with the .0005 foil came out to .0010 which is what I was looking for. Thanks, Bill Cook.